HP-less RPG combat

[DraQ]

The realism as well as availability and effectiveness of healing items/magic, risk of infections and other things can be adjusted in a complex wound system, making it more or less hardcore according to the needs.

 

[Balor]

Well, 'realism' does not really (tautology warning!) apply to 'fantasy worlds', right.
However, internal consistency is internal consistency EVERYWHERE. And human (and most humanoid) beings are modelled after RL, therefore which would kill a human in RL, should kill human in FantasyOtherWorld, otherwise it would not be a human.
I'm all for a setting where creatures are bizarre and completely unhuman, but it internally consistent... but making it would sure not be easy. And it is doomed for low popularity... after all, lack of elves and dwarves is a crime nowadays, and lack of humans is a sure death sentence.

 

[Autowin]

I don't know how many computer science majors (or hobbyist programmers) there are in this thread, but designing a system better than the simple 'hit points' based garbage would not be difficult in the least bit.

Some of you say that all other systems are still technically 'hit-points'. This is true. However the problem is not with the idea of keeping score by number, so much as grouping the entire organisms critical systems into a singular overly-large quantity.

Hit-points would actually work quite well, though personally I would prefer vague quantification of critical systems (do you all know exactly what percentage of health your body's critical systems are at any given time? no, of course not). The main idea that needs to be implemented is the idea of multiple sub-branches of health.

Rather than saying that someone has 1000 magic points that cause him to terminate once they reach (only) zero or below is rather ridiculous. The idea that training can extend the amount of damage one's body can take by any more than 50% (at the most extreme) is equally ridiculous, let alone 25000% in some games. The fact is that most of your body is pretty fragile and about the only thing you can do to increase your survivability is to wear protective gear (except large shoulder armor, that is worthless yet still largely used)

I could go on but it would be overkill. The current health systems are largely dog-shit.

 

[AlanC9]

Thing is, you wouldn't even need to worry about the "complex wound system", since the computer would take care of all that automatically.

Are we talking about a complex wound system, or a complex hit system? This thread keeps going off on tangents. Edit: I suppose I can blame D&D for conflating the two in the first place.

If the computer takes care of something for me, then exactly what is gained by having the complexity? The complexity has to be reflected in the gameplay or the whole exercise is pointless.

So what should a complicated system do for us. Or rather, to us?

 

[JarlFrank]

Thing is, you wouldn't even need to worry about the "complex wound system", since the computer would take care of all that automatically.

Are we talking about a complex wound system, or a complex hit system? This thread keeps going off on tangents. Edit: I suppose I can blame D&D for conflating the two in the first place.

If the computer takes care of something for me, then exactly what is gained by having the complexity? The complexity has to be reflected in the gameplay or the whole exercise is pointless.

So what should a complicated system do for us. Or rather, to us?

A complicated system should make combat more interesting and hard, with a lot more suspense in it. It should give you locational damage [different body parts, inner organs] and make the combat both more realistic and more complex. It also should give you more things to think about, like treating wounds before they get infected, and trying to disable an enemy by attacking the body parts of him which are the least armoured.

Stuff like that. More complexity, more tactical possibilities, more fun.

 

[mouflon]

I always thought shadowrun (pnp that is, never played the computer versions) had a neat wounding system - everybody gets 10 physical hitpoints and 10 mental hitpoints. Bullets and knives and that damage P, fists and sticks and the like damage M (and when M gets to 0, the character falls unconscious and damage starts overflowing to P). The difference between a tough-ass troll and a wimpy human is all in the body stat (BOD), which you use to soak up incoming damage, reducing it or negating it altogether.

Weapons have a power rating which is rolled against BOD and their damage potential is broadly categorized into light, moderate, serious and deadly - can't remember offhand and my internet is wonky so i can't check, but i think L=1, M=3, S=6 and D=9.. something like that. So two L wounds = one M wound and so on, and one D will mortally wound you to the point where you better hope your buddy is around to drag your bleeding carcass to a chop shop.

Anyway - what I like about it is that being shot is like being shot, and everyone is reasonably vulnerable: most handguns have an M rating, and a good shot will push it up to S, at which point the penalties are so severe the only thing you should be thinking about is finding a way to live through the next few rounds.

It might seem a bit harsh, but then with decent armor and cyberware and the like it's not too hard to push your BOD above the power level of most small arms, so unless the dice are being cruel a combat character can usually take a good few hits without much trouble, but there's always the chance of a lucky shot ending it at any time. And support classes - mages and deckers and that - really need to stay away from bullets, as it should be. The way the character development system works also means an uber character isn't that much tougher than a rookie, stat-wise, just more skilled and better equipped - if your elite runner has a showdown with three generic thugs in a back alley, you'll almost certainly win because you can gun down two of them before they can finish their cliche'd oblivious posturing. But if the same three get the jump on you, there's a fair chance you'll bite it right then and there.

It's a great system, really. Keeps everyone on their toes while still letting you feel your powarz. But then it wouldn't really work in a standard crpg where Our Hero has to stand up to swarms of bad guys every few minutes: SR's a bit more of an RPer's RPG, and the big firefights generally only happen when everything's gone to shit and you're just trying to get out in one piece. Also, PCs in shadowrun die. Lots. Fun in pnp, less so in a crpg, leastways a traditional one where you just hit quickload and hope the RNG takes pity on you.

~M

(fake edit - thinking about it, SR's h2h system, complicated as arse though it is, could work pretty well in a standard crpg - same power/damage system, but both combatants attack at once, rather than I hit-you hit, and the skill determines who actually makes the attack. So a ninjitsu warrior master could kill a whole maternity ward without breaking a sweat, but if the PC is only marginally more skilled than their opponent they could well end up needing a few hundred stitches)

 

[mjorkerina]

A complicated system should make combat more interesting and hard, with a lot more suspense in it. It should give you locational damage [different body parts, inner organs] and make the combat both more realistic and more complex. It also should give you more things to think about, like treating wounds before they get infected, and trying to disable an enemy by attacking the body parts of him which are the least armoured.

Stuff like that. More complexity, more tactical possibilities, more fun.

It would also make for more interesting strategies than just charging blindly a whole army when you are playing a fighter class. In all the d&d based cRPG all the fighter does is charging blindly, he has nothing more to do. Oh, sometimes he uses feats like knockdown but overall they are useless.

It would also make the ability to use a bow a much more interesting option. Right now when you are high level and fighting high level characters, bows are useless weapons that can't do much damage and serve virtually no purpose. Shooting an arrow to cripple a part of your enemy body before pulling your sword out when he comes at you would be cool.

 

[Gladi]

I really don't see why 10 kobolds shouldn't be a threat to one high level character. There's 10 of them. Unless, of course, roleplaying means 'wimpy nerds using spreadsheets to pretend they can beat up the people who were mean to them in high school'. Then carry on with the pre-pubescent power fantasies about taking on 10 enemies single handed.

Hear hear.

<this> :wink:

 

[crufty]

i think hp's are a great abstraction.

hp = dodge + experience + physical toughness etc

the issue is that most games hand out far too many hps.

i think if you came up with a hyper realistic damage system, you would find that it boils down to the same results of a good hp implementation.

but when it comes down to it, i'd rather see a system that lets me break a bottle on a table and then slash an opponents face then one that forces me to limp along because a dire rabbit bruised my ankle when it tried to bite through my plate armor.

so while detailed damage is no doubt good, for me, its a lower priority item then the actions i can take in the game world.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Well that depends on your definition of high level. If you mean about level 6 or so in DnD, then yeah, they should be more of a threat than they are now. But for a level 9 or 12 character,they really should be cannon fodder. It's kinda of the equivelent of being attacked by 10 hens. While you have a baseball bat.

 

[DraQ]

*necromancy*

We need some intelligent discussion here.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

A RoleMaster type system based more on critical hit effects than hp could work.

However, the best way would be to make hp a secret value that the player doesn't know, but rather has to rely on common sense and descriptions/visual aids.

 

[DraQ]

A RoleMaster type system based more on critical hit effects than hp could work.

Do elaborate, please.

However, the best way would be to make hp a secret value that the player doesn't know, but rather has to rely on common sense and descriptions/visual aids.

It's still subject to the retardations of HP system. Sure some things can be easily quantified, like blood loss. However the organism is rather complex system consisting of many parts which can fail more or less independently.

 

[OSK]

I've become a fan of this method when applied to hit locations:

One issue with the standard systems is the cumulative effect of injuries. In most standard systems wounds are strictly cumulative, so two 5-point wounds are identical to a 10-point wound. Arguably, this does not represent reality, nor does it strictly emulate cinematic genres like action movies. Numerous minor wounds to extremities or surface injuries are not equivalent to a wound to vital organs.

         One way to deal with accumulation is a non-linear wound track. For this, you have a wound track similar to those in Ars Magica, Shadowrun, or Storyteller. However, there are different numbers of boxes at different levels. i.e.

       1. Hurt       O O O O
       2. Wounded    O O O
       3. Serious    O O
       4. Grievous   O O
       5. Crippled   O

Find the amount of damage you do (the number on the left) and mark the leftmost box on that track, staging down only if all those are filled. Thus, it takes four 1-point wounds to scale up to a 2-point wound. Thus, after taking a 3-point wound, you could take up to 3 2-point wounds before being any worse off. This prevents small wounds from quickly accumulating into lethal effects, but allows them to accumulate without much bookkeeping.

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/sys ... nding.html

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

A RoleMaster type system based more on critical hit effects than hp could work.

Do elaborate, please.

RoleMaster uses a system where all actual hits are different degrees of critical hits. Depending on the weapon type and the target, a D100 table would be rolled with modifications to the result made according to weapon and the degree of the critical hit.

The system uses hit points, but those aren't going to matter much. Only the weakest effects actually are something HP is going to soak, being surface scratches and the like. Usually a combat ends in the first dismemberment, knockout, severe bleeding, eventually lethal damage, broken bones or instant-kill (the "the mighty blow pulverizes your bones to fine powder" and "sword impact collapses your skull and turns your brains to icky goo" kind of instant-kills) critical. Half the table are at least knockouts, usually ones that involve a few rounds before bleeding to death.

Critical misses also use the same tables, meaning that the unlucky axe-wielding barbarian might chop his own leg off.

So yeah, the combat actually revolves around landing the first good hit.

 

[DraQ]

Sounds fun.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well, it's absolutely hilarious when the party falls apart because of critical misses. Especially when the enemy does the same.

 

[Mayday]

The idea I'm pondering is this: (I think Naked Ninja mentioned it before)

Instead of having HPs, make combat focus on bringing your enemy to a state of vulnerability (by tiring him or causing pain) at which point you are able to perfrom a critical hit which will either kill or seriously cripple him.

Obviously, to make the game fun, the player should have some limited means of escape/recovery once HE finds himself in such a state.

 

[Lord Rocket]

Traveller uses characteristic points directly as HP (so getting shot in the face makes you lose Str, End(urance) or Dex, which range between 2-15, average 6-8. Being reduced to 0 in two of them causes unconsciousness, in all three causes death. A rifle does 3d6 damage, so you'll fall over quite fast). Does that count?

Look, the whole problem with this thread is that any system that uses points is basically HP, except with a different name. Doesn't matter if there's lots of different tracks - which isn't a system that makes sense anyway (if someone severs your completely non-vital leg, then they've just severed a couple of big arteries too. Welcome to bleed-out town). I like the BRP system (single track variant) - if you lose half your HP (the average person will have about 11 or 12 of these, a .38 does 1d10 and a proper sword will do 2d6 + any strength dice) in one big go, then you have to roll against your CON or something nasty happens (depending on the game). 0 HP = death, but I prefer to see that relaxed a little, or the game is way too lethal. Nonetheless, generally one or two blows will be enough to put anyone down.

Rolemaster is a pretty cool system too, but it can get pretty stupid at times. Plus it completely fails to take things like size differences into account - 'large' creatures get a critical table all to themselves, but since the supplements provide weapon critical hit tables for every single weapon, this seems inadequate somehow.

I like MayDay/NN's idea too, but that's a combat system rather than a damage system, isn't it? How would the actual wounding system play out? And, if the pain/fatigue track is linear, then doesn't that make it an HP attrition system anyway? That's pretty much what HP in D&D are suppose to represent (fatigue etc.) but that breaks down pretty fast if you spend any time actually thinking about it.

 

[Mayday]

Well, in that case you can just have normal, realistic wounds.
A couple of wounds in your right arm will cause you so much pain, that you drop your weapon, making yourself vulnerable.
A single hit to your neck with a sword is enough to open the main vein (whatever it's called in english).
A strong hit to your leg will make you fall over.
Fatigue will make your blows weaker and your reactions slower.

Fatigue IS a linear value (though I guess you may also split it between different limbs?). Pain? I don't know. I can see what you mean by drawing the similarity to HP, but the effect is different:
lose HP- you die.
lose stamina or gain pain - you become vulnerable.
I think the main benefit is that the results are multiple and require different reactions. HP loss always has the same effect.

 

[rpgcodexusername]

what happens when a monster attacks the players neck after 20 hours of gameplay ending the game with a large amount of frustation.

 

[Mayday]

THAT's THE POINT!
It doesn't get to perform a critcal hit on the neck before making you vulnerable somehow. So if you (for some reason) decide to engage him in combat and are weakened by his attack, you get the chance to run away/ teleport away/ use some emergency wand of destruction or something like that.

 

[rpgcodexusername]

oh ok, so its more like JA2

 

[DraQ]

I think the main benefit is that the results are multiple and require different reactions. HP loss always has the same effect.

I think that the main advantage of a HP-less system would be better simulation, and no retarded stuff like whittling HPs down.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

How would you design a HP less RPG/cRPG or cRPG exclusive (for solutions unfeasible for PnP RPGsm butwell within capabilities of modern gaming rigs) combat and damage system?

Take DnD and simply rename "Hit Points" to "Combat Advantage Points". Make them fully restore inbetween fights. The edition doesn't even matter.

It fits so perfectly it's not even funny. Shit, it even kinda works with magic(if you assume spells can be somehow deflected/parried/dodged). Now you just need a hack job for projectile weapons.