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I just played Quake 2

shihonage

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The only difference I see between Quake 1 and Quake 2 engines is that the latter one had 3D acceleration.

Wrong. Quake had 3D acceleration pretty early with GLQuake, and it wasn't what set them apart.

Quake 2 was way ahead of Quake 1 technologically. It was the first game to have colored lighting, and the way it looked blew the pants off everyone on E3 and the like. The magazines gushed, "See that boss? This weapon he's holding is an independent lightsource".

Quake 1 was stuck with 10FPS animation for all actors, Quake 2 introduced movement interpolation, which made everything smooth.

Quake 1 used bitmaps for some effects, Quake 2 was 100% polygonal, even for explosions.

Quake 2 was probably the first game to have those pseudo-3D skyboxes.

Quake 1 had the worst multiplayer code ever, QuakeWorld improved on it, and Quake2 refined it.

Quake 2 had the rudimentary of the kind of scripting present in Half-Life. There were prisons, meat conveyors, ceiling breaks and Borg-like robots with forcefields jump on you... and it had the same kind of back-and-forth map travel as Half-Life did.

Quake 2 was the first game to let you see the weapons carried by other people in multiplayer.

In fact, the vast upgrade in renderer code alone between Quake 1 ---> Quake 2 was part of the reason for Daikatana delay. Carmack promised to keep Romero up-to-date on the code, but the differences were so vast, Romero couldn't just "upgrade". He had to integrate 3D acceleration and colored lighting on his own, which took a lot of time.

Apparently, Hexen 2 also couldn't use Quake2's movement interpolation code, so they went for 20FPS actors instead, which still looked shitty.
 

shihonage

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Wait. You people thought Quake 2 was good?

Wow, you're all a bunch of fucking retards.

No, you are.

Quake 2 was the apex of id software, as far as I am concerned. It had the most balanced and refined single-player level design, it had cool enemies, it was the last id game to have true campaign coop play, and I had as much fun passing it with a friend as I did Duke3D Atomic Edition. It was a fucking blast, and a true spiritual sequel to Doom 1.
 

Jasede

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Quake 2 is one of the worst games I have ever played.
What a shameful, terrible sequel.

It's all opinion, but I'll say it's graphically boring, has boring enemies, terrible map design and awful, unfun weapons. A big step down from Quake.
 

Lord Rocket

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Nope, Quake 2 was boring. Replayed it recently, it's uninspired. There's two kinds of shotguns, two kinds of machine guns (and a laser gun that acts like a machine gun), two kinds of rocket launcher (one being completely fucking useless) the railgun and the BFG 10K which was pretty fun to use (sometimes).

EDIT: to be fair, Q1 suffered from this as well (esp. the SNG, ugh) but considering how quickly they put the game content together this can be excused. And the GL was actually p. fun in Q1.

The enemies are reskins (sometimes from Quake 1. Oh and the Medics are shitter, non-threatening Arch Viles, but you knew that already) and hitscanners. The only fun enemies to fight are the (three kinds of) fliers, which have the same weapon and differ only in hitbox and -points. The Tanks are possibly the most boring FPS enemy ever. The final boss was a joke. Not a funny one, either.

Yes the tech was impressive for the time, but so was Dooms and Doom is still fucking fun to play. And Quake 1, for that matter.

Oh and for software vs. GL retards, take a look at this page.
 

sea

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I don't know about Quake 2 being particularly under-developed or boring next to other games of the time. The first-person shooter genre moved incredibly quickly back then - things went from Doom, to Duke Nukem 3D, to Hexen, to Quake 2, Goldeneye 007, to Half-Life in literally about the span of four years, and much of that development occurred between 1997 and 1998. The shooter genre was transformed from "shoot the bad guys and get to the end of the level" to a relatively sophisticated, intelligently-designed and narratively-driven form that has almost remained unchanged since then. I don't think any other genres have moved that quickly since then, and the lack of development in shooters over say, the last console generation, is pretty shocking in comparison.

You can't really say one game was really "ahead" of another either, because so many of them were developed concurrently. Quake 2 might have seemed "simple" in comparison to a few games but we're talking literally a few months' difference between them, and at the time no game was anywhere near as technologically ambitious either - most of them were working with old code by id or 3D Realms, after all.
 

Jasede

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I thought Unreal was boring too. I can't stand the "only a couple enemies at once" concept. I like my caveman-style Doom.
 

Twinkle

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The shooter genre was transformed from "shoot the bad guys and get to the end of the level" to a relatively sophisticated, intelligently-designed and narratively-driven form that has almost remained unchanged since then

What
 

toro

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Quake 1 had the worst multiplayer code ever, QuakeWorld improved on it, and Quake2 refined it.

After Doom, Quake 1 was a pioneer of multiplayer medium. So, to say that it sucked is simply unfair.
And even if Quake 2 might be the technological apex for id games, it was mediocre as a single player game.
In multiplayer, I think is better than Quake 3, but worse than Quake 1. Weird opinion. But this is my feeling.
 

shihonage

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Quake 1 had the worst multiplayer code ever, QuakeWorld improved on it, and Quake2 refined it.

After Doom, Quake 1 was a pioneer of multiplayer medium. So, to say that it sucked is simply unfair.

Regardless, it sucked, as many first attempts at anything do.

The code was initially designed so that everything moves around smoothly, but you have a constantly present delay between button presses and your actions.
 

sea

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The shooter genre was transformed from "shoot the bad guys and get to the end of the level" to a relatively sophisticated, intelligently-designed and narratively-driven form that has almost remained unchanged since then

What
Key word being "relatively." Half-Life isn't exactly high art but its level of storytelling (both explicit and in the environment), inclusion of puzzles, non-linear level designs, different enemy types with diverse AI patterns etc. is a pretty big step up from Quake just a couple of years before. Since Half-Life things really have not changed that much except that we now have shorter, more linear games with way more cutscenes in them. Things like level design and methods of storytelling have not changed too much, and generally not for the better.
 

toro

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Quake 1 had the worst multiplayer code ever, QuakeWorld improved on it, and Quake2 refined it.

After Doom, Quake 1 was a pioneer of multiplayer medium. So, to say that it sucked is simply unfair.

Regardless, it sucked, as many first attempts at anything do.

The code was initially designed so that everything moves around smoothly, but you have a constantly present delay between button presses and your actions.

Not really. For a piece of shit, it stood the test of time.
You can say that you personally didn't like it, but MP in Quake was excellent at least on LAN. No lag. Maybe for Internet connection, but that's a different story.
 

toro

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Since Half-Life things really have not changed that much except that we now have shorter, more linear games with way more cutscenes in them. Things like level design and methods of storytelling have not changed too much, and generally not for the better.

So, there was a change or not?
 

Lord Rocket

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Quake 1 had the worst multiplayer code ever, QuakeWorld improved on it, and Quake2 refined it.

After Doom, Quake 1 was a pioneer of multiplayer medium. So, to say that it sucked is simply unfair.

Regardless, it sucked, as many first attempts at anything do.

The code was initially designed so that everything moves around smoothly, but you have a constantly present delay between button presses and your actions.

um are you talking about Doom's p2p networking, where the lag was determined by the player witrh the slowest connection? Quake uses a client/server system like those in use today. Try playing any other MP game on a server with a high ping and see what happens.
 

shihonage

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Not really. For a piece of shit, it stood the test of time.
You can say that you personally didn't like it, but MP in Quake was excellent at least on LAN. No lag. Maybe for Internet connection, but that's a different story.


How was Quake a pioneer of multiplayer medium if you're only referring to the LAN games? A monkey could write something that works well on LAN games. Using old peer-to-peer code no less, over good old IPX protocol.

It's true, Quake was a pioneer, and that was largely because it was the first Internet FPS.

And its code was designed to allow "some semblance" of client-server FPS gameplay, over the Internet.

It was a "first" at that, and it didn't work very well at all. More on this below.


um are you talking about Doom's p2p networking, where the lag was determined by the player witrh the slowest connection? Quake uses a client/server system like those in use today. Try playing any other MP game on a server with a high ping and see what happens.


I'm profoundly aware of the differences between P2P and client-server models, having written engines for both.

Quake used client-server system, but it was not like those in use today. QuakeWorld/Quake2 were the first ones to resemble today's client-server systems.

Quake's system had no need for player movement interpolation, because all packets were sent and received in an uninterrupted stream, likely via use of TCP/IP instead of UDP. The side-effect was, that unlike any of the modern Internet FPS, you didn't get the illusion of immediate responsiveness, but you also didn't have people rubber-banding around on a shitty connection.

If you had poor ping, everything still was buttery-smooth, but delay between pressing "forward" and your guy moving forward, increased.

I spent months playing it, and I remember how it worked all too well.
 

Онега

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Quake's system had no need for player movement interpolation, because
The server probably stalled for data since the Quake server is UDP only. You can route to it via IP or IPX but the transport layer is UDP. Stalling would explain less responsiveness and no rubberbanding and the delay too. They may have even custom hacked some TCP/extra features into their protocol on top of UDP.

Fun fact I learned: Quake singleplayer is you playing on your local server in loopback mode.
edit
Kind of wondering right now if Quake singleplayer would work without network drivers installed...
 

DraQ

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IIRC railgun became a cult weapon thanks to Quake II.
It also had all the subtlety of a garbage truck in Q2 when it comes to concept and mechanics - "a hitscan weapon that shoots so hard that it can pierce multiple fucks, it also leaves particle trail".
I guess it explains its popularity - among knuckle-draggers.

If you want to see similar concept but realized gracefully see HL1's gauss gun - lower damage and higher rate of fire, but similar mechanics (plus oblique angle ricochets) in primary fire, charging up for variable damage (so slow RoF, very high damage if you charge it up) with additional ability to pierce walls and cause deadly spalling in altfire. It's effectively railgun on steroids, with several juicy layers of interesting mechanics added on top.

The only cool weapon in Q2 (in terms of mechanics - conceptually Unreal's Minigun is still the best gatling ever) was Chaingun and that's only because it was simply "more dakka" gone horribly right and pursued to its logical conclusion.

Cyborgs that jump from niches while making creepy-creepy grunts and screaming distorted war cries and try to kill you in a death twitch are mediocre? Fuckers are so creepy that I often gib them after killing (One thing that would be cool if there was a chance for them to self repair and start attacking the player again).
Wow. Just wow.
You find Q2's laughable canned prosthetic people creepy AND well designed opponents?
'K.

Q2 had only one remotely interesting enemy type (in terms of both combat and visual design) - medic.

As for death throes, the problem with Q2 death anims (and with about every repetitive scripted thing ever) is that you probably had them memorized by the time you left the first level (not unit, level) and your reaction to them was hardly anything but "oh, how cute, he will now try to shoot me in his death throes, *yawn*, *evade*" for the entire rest of the game with the first frame or two sufficing to make a distinction.

Contrast this with Unreal (an absolute masterpiece but not without flaws, mostly suffering from low weapon lethality, low enemy projectile speed and quiet gun sounds) where Skaarj were prone to feigning death or getting knocked unconscious (by explosions and shocks), which used the exact same animations as some genuine death sequences, so while you could eventually learn to spot some telltale signs of feigned death, it wasn't nearly as obvious, and could well be impossible from distance.

Also, FPSes, especially FPSes of old might not have concerned themselves with plot or setting too much, but Q2 raped Q1 way harder than Bethesda did rape FO with FO3 (also harder than it was accomplished with FOBOS).

Anyway, I consider post Q1 id creatively bankrupt, and even before that, they didn't seem particularly creative folks - Doom had some nice sprites and level design (Doom 2 also had Archvile), but was pretty derpy overall, Quake was more interesting due to mere fluke, when id realized that hacking shit with an axe doesn't cut it and they need their guns back - pretty cool atmosphere ensued, but completely by accident.

Hell, id couldn't even be bothered to progress beyond Doom's arsenal most of the time back when it wasn't creatively bankrupt.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was the first game to have colored lighting, and the way it looked blew the pants off everyone on E3 and the like.
Early obliviontards. :obviously:

Q2 colored lighting was puke inducing as it made it clear that none of the mappers had any clue as to how to use it to improve their creations so they just pasted randomly coloured lights everywhere (with their favourite being jaundice coloured light saturating the outdoor areas).

I could possibly list some much earlier games depending on exact definition of coloured lighting (or possibly not even that if unreal engine's implementation of coloured lighting predates that of Q2 - unreal engine had general advantage of being capable of all its impressive stuff in bare software - colored lighting, procedurally animated textures, texture filtering, volumetric lighting, etc. - they even had some sort of fake specular implemented back in 1995, which was dropped for some reason, software texture filtering was already there at that point).


The magazines gushed, "See that boss? This weapon he's holding is an independent lightsource".
I actually don't recall anything like this in Q2.


Quake 1 used bitmaps for some effects, Quake 2 was 100% polygonal, even for explosions.
And it also looked like shit. Notice how most modern games DON'T use polys for shit like smoke and explosions or use them sparingly. It's for a reason - a really good reason.

Also, Quake (1&2) used very early particle technology which couldn't even use bitmaps to represent particles.

Quake 2 was probably the first game to have those pseudo-3D skyboxes.
I wouldn't give it too much credit for that - textured cube is just a textured cube.

Besides, Q1/Hexen 2 animated skyboxes were much cooler.

Quake 2 had the rudimentary of the kind of scripting present in Half-Life. There were prisons, meat conveyors, ceiling breaks and Borg-like robots with forcefields jump on you... and it had the same kind of back-and-forth map travel as Half-Life did.
Hexen 1, Hexen 2, Strife.

Quake 2 was the first game to let you see the weapons carried by other people in multiplayer.
Hexen 2 has it beaten, although some "similar" weapons shared models there.

Yes the tech was impressive for the time
Not even that - half a year later Unreal appeared and wiped the floor with Q2. And most of its technology was ready much earlier.
However "bad" you think Quake 2 was, Unreal was far, far worse.
:hmmm:
You're either kidding or are retarded have absolutely shit taste when it comes to FPS games, take your pick.
 

hiver

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Ah, Quake 2.... my first PC game...

I learned how to move in 3d space from FP pov in that baby.
Good stuff. Good design.
 

octavius

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Quake 2 is one of the few FPS's I've played where it was realistically possible to complete the game and kill all enemies without ever being hit yourself.
 

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