I was wrong

[HanoverF]

It doesn't really bother me, Obliv was looking dubious at best, but

And I think we can all agree that it's better to have quests that are more fun to play through than quests that are artificially simplified because the designers had to worry about every obscure contingency.

In a game where you go around killing stuff, I'd hardly call the killing of a quest NPC an obscure contingency. Picking up a rock, painting it purple and gold, and then chucking it at the NPCs head is an obscure contingency, Killing them should be par for the course.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Characters having dialogue suited to them instead of some stupid wiki? I don't know, VD, but that sounds like an improvement to me.
...
Seeing as the MAIN COMPLAINT with MW dialogue was the very cardboard Wikipedia delivery, it would seem a slightly intelligent move for the people at Beth would have been to alter it.

Depends on what they did, doesn't it? I could be wrong but I doubt that each NPC has unique responses even to the same topic. Applying some filters to give a fighter fighting topics, etc doesn't seem like a big improvement to me.

My assumption is that they have. Your assumption is that they haven't. Either way, they're both assumptions, but I think it would have been extremely idiotic of the people at Beth if they did it again.

Why wouldn't they? Wasn't MW a Game of the Year that sold millions? It sold well because it was pretty and let you do anything you want. I expect that that's what Bethesda focused on. That's what would really make sense.

As for combat, http://www.elderscrolls.com/codex/team_ ... stevem.htm
Already it sounds different and focusing on timing rather than a clickfest. Or maybe they're lying and this is actually fake hype to lure us in? Maybe they haven't changed combat at all!

They did change it, but I thought you mentioned that it was strategic. Well, sorry for being an arrogant prick but there is nothing strategic about timing in combat. It's still reflex-oriented.

Does being an arrogant prick come easily to you, or do you practice it?

It comes easily. Call it a gift.

I phrased my post politely, without insulting anyone, but you seem to be incapable of this amazing feat whenever somebody has a differing opinion, or disputes something with you.

Bullshit. Plenty of people disagreed with me over the years here, I insulted very few. The problem that I had with your post is that you've taken a bunch of assumptions and built your entire argument on them, expecting to be taken seriously.

My arguments, while also relying on some assumptions, are mostly based on facts: DF, MW, known info, etc; not on wishful thinking. See this thread http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... 62&start=0. Speaks for itself.

My OPINION is pretty well founded.

Of course. I've never met a person who'd say "my opinion is full of shit".

Unless I've misunderstood "Uh, no," you seem to be implying that making the world throw constant alternatives at you wouldn't be difficult to program or implement.

That is correct.

I think your expectations of Radiant AI are a little high...

Ever heard of scripting? My expectations of Radiant AI is zero. Icing on a cake without the cake.

You seem to be critizing Radiant AI for not being this powerful yet, for making alternatives you every tiny detail you do.

And the problem is? If it's not good enough to handle complex situations, then why are we talking about it? Geneforge's TB combat, for example, is shit, and I don't care if the engine isn't good enough to handle a better one. Same here. If it's not good enough to handle anything but basic routines, do something else, something that was done ages ago to bring worlds to life.

But I also brought up the point that some people will get angry at this and say their lvl 99 character SHOULD be able to take them all on. You'll also get the people that cheat and make their STR 9999. And assuming they kill him, they'll break the game. It's better, in the end, to make them reload upon doing this.

Then Beth needs to decide what kind of people they are aiming at. Let's ensure that those with STR 9999 have a pleasant experience. Looks like they've already have: "our kind of game appeals to a wider audience, given the game’s success among more casual gamers who are neither ‘hardcore’ nor ‘RPG geeks’ "

Other games DO do that. And by Beth having to compensate for the dick who just wants to kill everything and everyone because it's "funny lol" and honestly expects the game to deal with it, they'll have to lower the immersion factor and how well characters can engage you.

See above.

 

[Mithter Thibbs]

The indicator is a very small icon that appears only when you're close enough to start a conversation with someone. It looks one way if they're essential, another way if they're not.

No halos, no auras, no beams of light shining down.

heh heh... dang. I really wanted to play a Jesus-type. Ah well.

From the sounds of it, it seems like this icon is more part of the interface than part of the in-game look of the character. Sounds promising. Again, not a big deal either way -- if it's consistently presented (ie. all characters have some sort of icon when I'm close enough to talk to them) I'll likely just end up ignoring it anyway.

... unless, of course, by "looks one way if they're essential" you mean something like a giant third eye in the center of their foreheads, looking to the left if they're essential, and to the right if they're safely killable.

Probably not what you mean either, though.

(PS. Kudos to taking the time to deal with crap questions like this, too. Especially here, of all places. *thumbs up*)

 

[merry andrew]

Well, sorry for being an arrogant prick but there is nothing strategic about timing in combat. It's still reflex-oriented.

Nothing strategic about timing? Are you serious?

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Well, sorry for being an arrogant prick but there is nothing strategic about timing in combat. It's still reflex-oriented.

Nothing strategic about timing? Are you serious?

You might be confusing strategy with tactics. And even tactics usually involves multiple people taking part in a coordinated effort to succeed on the battlefield. I don't think that's what you guys are arguing about, but I felt like saying it.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

That's assuming that the NPC has no purpose other than to give you a quest? Or maybe you're suggesting that they just continue on for the duration of the game as a ghost?

MSFD, I'm guessing that the essential NPCs are just specific key figures affiliated with the main storyline?

In which case you use something else like divine intervention or ressurrection by magic or NPC replacement.

NPC replacement would work just fine because you could keep the substitute NPC "out of the game" until such a point as he's needed for the plot critical story crap.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

Nope, I don't think you guys thought of any of that. I think you guys took the shortcut and patted yourselves on the back.

They probably did the smart thing and realized that probably 99.9% of the people that play the game wouldn't give half a shit about it, no matter how easy some kid on a forum says it is to fix.

 

[Jaesun]

I say let the NPC stay killable, AND allow them to 1 shot kill the player, if they are attacked. Hell whip up some story that all the "essential" NPC's are all memebers of the SEKRET MYSTARY NINJA SK00L and know the quivering palm of death!

or something. That sure would solve your reload oprtion.

** you are hit for 900,000 points of damage!**

But I'd like to see an option availble in game to either select "unkillable essential NPC's" "Moron Indicator" etc...

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

I say let the NPC stay killable, AND allow them to 1 shot kill the player, if they are attacked. Hell whip up some story that all the "essential" NPC's are all memebers of the SEKRET MYSTARY NINJA SK00L and know the quivering palm of death!

or something.

Even without that, you won't always be able to kill everyone you attack in the first place. Guards come running if they're around, and others who like the guy will come to his aid as well. Chances are, if you attack an essential NPC you'll probably either wind up dead or hoping they'll accept your yield. Or you'll get arrested & carted off to jail.

 

[Jaesun]

[Even without that, you won't always be able to kill everyone you attack in the first place. Guards come running if they're around, and others who like the guy will come to his aid as well. Chances are, if you attack an essential NPC you'll probably either wind up dead or hoping they'll accept your yield. Or you'll get arrested & carted off to jail.

I can live with that. I like that actually.

 

[Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas]

Well, if it was only text based dialouge, I'd say somthing like "Get off your asses and be creative" to the developers.

But there is fully voiced dialouge. Every damn line is recorded. Makes it hard to do too manny variations to take into account the thousands of possibilities that will pop up. Still worth it, as it adds to the imersion (Plus I get a headache from reading too much text)

Anyways, to the guys arguing with VD, don't even bother. The guys an arogant asshole, who may be educated, and may occasionaly even have a good point, but is still annoying. Also he uses every technique in that list of slimy-politician style arguments.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

It might be just me, but I don't think recorded dialogue is worth it. In Gothic people would talk to each other when you were walking by, which is harder to do with text (a line can appear above their heads in isometric games, but it isn't the same), but you have to divert part of your budget to voice actors, there's a lot more work for a translated version of the game, computers could have issues with the sound files and get screwy, it takes up more space than text and if you find a mistake it's harder to do a quick fix right before the game is released (or in a patch). Then again, I really enjoy text adventures, so my opinion is probably miles away from most potential customers (which in the case of virtually any game that's coming out, I'm not one of).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Plus I get a headache from reading too much text

That's the impression we've got.

The guys an arogant asshole...

This is a mean, mean thing to say to a friend

...and may occasionaly even have a good point...

Why, thank you.

... but is still annoying.

Objection! I request the moderators to strike that off the records!!! Who moderates these boards, anyway?!!! An honest citizen is getting attacked here!

Also he uses every technique in that list of slimy-politician style arguments.

Hmm, I never knew that stating facts is how them slimy politicians argue.

 

[Shagnak]

I FIND YOU GUILTY AS CHARGED VD

NOW SAY TWO HAIL CTHULHUS AND MAKE CONTRITE AND APOLOGETIC GENUFLECTIONS

 

[Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas]

It might be just me, but I don't think recorded dialogue is worth it.

Well thats your opinion.

In Gothic people would talk to each other when you were walking by, which is harder to do with text (a line can appear above their heads in isometric games, but it isn't the same), but you have to divert part of your budget to voice actors,

Voice actors aren't that expensive. I mean they have Patrick Stuart, but they're using the same people who did morrowind mostly. Anyways, they're already rolling in it from morrowind (and probably afew microsoft bribes), and they obviousely had enough money for it.

there's a lot more work for a translated version of the game,

Well, I'm geting the english version, so frankly I don't care.

computers could have issues with the sound files and get screwy,

Computers have problems with aplication files and get screwy. They have problems with texture files and get screwy. Whats your point?

it takes up more space than text and if you find a mistake it's harder to do a quick fix right before the game is released (or in a patch).

Well they are using a 9 GB DVD...they have plenty of space for both the game and the audio.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's the impression we've got.

youve been playing the game for 16 hours straight, it's 4:00 AM, and your bottle of No-Doz is half empty (it was full 16 hours ago)...text will give you a headache in those situations.

This is a mean, mean thing to say to a friend

Who says I'm your freind? Your some random person on a CRPG forum, just like me and everyone else.

Why, thank you.

No problem.

Objection! I request the moderators to strike that off the records!!! Who moderates these boards, anyway?!!! An honest citizen is getting attacked here!

That was the example of a good point. Who DOSE moderate these boards anyways...

Hmm, I never knew that stating facts is how them slimy politicians argue.

No, but stating a know fact that is unrelated to the question at hand to strengthen a week argument is, as is ignoring an ovewhelming body of evidence and hamering one or two points to death, or simply playing on a pre existing prejustice to exagerate events.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Objection! I request the moderators to strike that off the records!!! Who moderates these boards, anyway?!!! An honest citizen is getting attacked here!

That was the example of a good point. Who DOSE moderate these boards anyways...

*cough* That would be me. TREMBLE, MORTAL!!! FOR YOU HAVE TRESSPASSED INTO MY DOMAIN!!!! MWAHAHAHA!!!

No, but stating a know fact that is unrelated to the question at hand to strengthen a week argument is, as is ignoring an ovewhelming body of evidence and hamering one or two points to death, or simply playing on a pre existing prejustice to exagerate events.

Examples please. State some examples of using unrelated facts, ignoring "overwhelming body of evidence", and all that other crap you posted. Alternatively, should you be unable to back up your bullshit, I'd expect you to shut the fuck up.

Leave me now for I must pray to Cthulhu: Ia! Ia! Chtulhu fhtagn!

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Well, I'm geting the english version, so frankly I don't care.

Just because you don't play the versions with other languages doesn't mean that they weren't made. It would simply require more work, which as MSFD pointed out could go into other aspects of the game, and it would also most likely mean the game will take longer to come out. Before this gets into a big argument I'd like to point out that I don't think it's a big deal and I'm not getting Oblivion either way (I'd like to play Morrowind first, and I know my computer won't be able to handle it, and I've got a backlog of games I need to finish already that could take years :D ).

Computers have problems with aplication files and get screwy. They have problems with texture files and get screwy. Whats your point?

My computer had horrible problems with the audio and video in fallout and planescape: torment. I've even had several games that wouldn't run correctly unless I turned the sound off. I've yet to encounter a problem in ANY game's text aside from it being poorly written.

 

[merry andrew]

You might be confusing strategy with tactics. And even tactics usually involves multiple people taking part in a coordinated effort to succeed on the battlefield. I don't think that's what you guys are arguing about, but I felt like saying it.

I wasn't referring to large-scale military operations, as Oblivion doesn't feature party-based combat.

Here's some definitions (m-w.com) that apply to a smaller force:
tactics: the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end
strategy: a careful plan or method

I thought VD was implying that activities requiring reflexes and timing cannot include strategy, but I guess I was wrong.

 

[merry andrew]

In which case you use something else like divine intervention or ressurrection by magic or NPC replacement.

NPC replacement would work just fine because you could keep the substitute NPC "out of the game" until such a point as he's needed for the plot critical story crap.

I dunno, that seems a bit campy to me. 'Well sure they died, but they came back because their mission is that important!!11'.

Might as well have a visual indicator as to whether or not the NPC is essential.

 

[Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas]

*cough* That would be me. TREMBLE, MORTAL!!! FOR YOU HAVE TRESSPASSED INTO MY DOMAIN!!!! MWAHAHAHA!!!

Cool. I personally love arguing with moderators. Worst thing that happens is I get kicked off, in which case I just find some other forum to spread my disease in.

Examples please. State some examples of using unrelated facts, ignoring "overwhelming body of evidence", and all that other crap you posted. Alternatively, should you be unable to back up your bullshit, I'd expect you to shut the fuck up.

I'm tired, lazy, and south park is on, so I'll link to them. But off the top of my head the bitching about patrick stuart in your unoficial in your preview, and using parts of quotes out of context (see your list of funny quotes from the official ES forums in the latter part of the "Pete heins (somthing, you know the long one)" in the news comentary section. Oh, and you nit-pick and base main statements based on other peoples quick examples.

My computer had horrible problems with the audio and video in fallout and planescape: torment. I've even had several games that wouldn't run correctly unless I turned the sound off. I've yet to encounter a problem in ANY game's text aside from it being poorly written.

Generaly most computers capable of running OB won't have too many problems. I honestly haven't had a problem with audio or anything on my current rig, and I use alot of user made modifications and unoficial stuff like that.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Frankly, I could care less that there's a moron indicator stating who is and isn't an essential NPC. Chances are a person would figure it out all on their own; common sense told me not to attack the elder of the village in FO2, or the Overseeer in FO1. In a way, the indicator is good for those times when you just go crazy and want to kill everyone in a village. I'm sure a lot of people have done it before - when you're bored or restless, you save your current progress and then try to see if you can take an entire town on by yourself. I've done it countless times in Arcanum, FO, BG, and I even stood there clicking at the NPCs in HL2 despite my gun being lowered whenever I pointed in their direction. In my opinion, most people are smart enough to save before doing something silly like that, so the moron indicator is a bit redundant - but it's nothing big for me to gripe over. A lot of games simply ignore the fact that you're attacking an essential NPC - the character stands there and takes it. Some take a nuclear arsenal and don't die. (like Paul in Deux Ex)

I think the problem stems from a belief about Bethesda. We saw in Morrowind how almost everyone you met was an "essential NPC". There's a fear that Bethesda, in their infinite wisdom, have done the same thing again. Making the king of every town or the lord of every village all "essential NPCs" and they're not really needed. Frankly, I think it boils down to the way they tell their story. Morrowind was all about a "prophecy" (which was piss poor I though) and you HAD to fulfil the god-damned prophecy. As has been shown, all you really had to do was grab the big weapons, whack an object and you win the game but instead, Bethesda rail you down this dumb path where you have to do a hundrd and one things just so you can be named "Man with big tits who comes to save us" and then get the hammer and shit.

They didn't even think of anyone not giving a shit about the prophecy, finding the hammer and sword (which I'd found and sold actually thinking they were cursed items, before I knew they were important) and killing God d00d without the all the bullshit. Fallout was great because it was only your vault or village you couldn't kill (and Frank Horrigan in that encounter at the start of FO2 but that was not needed anyway and piss poor design on BiS' part) but you could kill everyone else you wanted too. Bethesda has this habit of making convaluted railed stories which just suck.

In Fallout, all you have to do is find the water chip and then deal with the Master and the Military Base. How you do that is irrelevant. Whether you join the Master or break into the Neropolis and steal the Water Chip... the game doesn't care because all you need to is get the water chip. If you're a "any means to an end" kind of guy, it's great.

Fallout 2 was the same. All you have to do is find the GECK and deal with the Enclave. Anything you do outside of that is irrelevant. Which GECK you find or how you destroy the Enclave is irrelevant. You just have to do it.

Morrowind on the other hand, all you really have to do is find the two weapons and stay alive long enough as you beat the metal heart. Whether you follow and fulfil the prophecy or not should be irrelevant. But rather than accepting that, the approach taken is "Oh noes! Someone might do this another way without fulfilling teh prophecy! That would ruin out shitty story so we must come up with arsed ways to piss those people off!". Note that if they'd accepted a non-prophecy way, you'd be able to kill everyone in the game without any worries...

At the end of the day, it boils down to piss-poor story telling and this strange desire to push everyone down the same path on Bethesda's part. How you find out about the bad guy or how you find out how to kill the bad guy should be irrelevant, all that should matter is that you do something which stops the bad guy (or join him) in order to get some sort of conclusion.

Rather than catering for that with a "You've defeated the evil but you didn't fulfil the prophecy. Shock horror! Us Gods are bedazzled" movie sequence, they just ignore it and pretend you fulfilled the prophecy regardless.

The problem is, if the information that character had was so trivial that it could be transcribed in a journal, chances are they wouldn't be an ESSENTIAL NPC.

Morrowind. Vivec. All the plans were in the notes on his table. That's all you need. You don't need Vivec. Just his info which is right there on the table behind him telling you all about the weapons and how to use them. Strangely, Vivec is an ESSENTIAL NPC and yet, you're right. He doesn't have to be.

As an essential NPC, it's probably going to be a king that ordering you to go on quests, then return to him and report on it - in that sense, you could lose an entire storyline if you kill the king. His journal is not going to state, "Boy, I need to find someone to perform some duties for me. First, I need him to burn down the tower.

This is piss-poor design. The idea is all you need to do in any computer game is "defeat the bad guy". That's it. You don't need to "destroy the towers" or "slay the dragon". Chances are, you'll do those things along the way anyway. However, if you don't, slides should be able to tell how the dragon slayed an entire village because you didn't deal with it. You had the choice to deal with the dragon. You didn't. There's your consequence. Again, how you find out about the bad dude is completely irrelevant. Chances are, plenty of people other than the King know what needs to be done.

Beth is excited about their Radiant AI, but some people are expecting too much too fast, mainly with the argument that whenever you kill an essential NPC, the world should react to it and offer alternatives. Isn't it obvious this turns into a never-ending cycle and a nightmare to program? I'm sure we'll be able to achieve that kind of immersion in 15 or 20 years, but I don't see the point of giving a company the third degree from the get-go.

I've never agreed with the NPC replacement argument mainly because (continuing in line with what I said above) it is completely irrelevant to the actual game. Who cares if the king dies? Chances are, it's the player doing all the world saving on his own anyway. If the player kills the bad guy, what's it matter if the king is dead? All that's needed is a lide or movie showing that "With the bad guy dead, and the good king dead too, the good king's evil twin brother from France comes to the throne and implements a reign of terror". Again. You had a choice. You chose to kill the good king. You now see the consequence of that decision.

"Well, if you do manage to kill an NPC, a shaft of holy light will raise them back to life/a narrator will say 'That didn't happen, did it?'/God will smite you," everyone would have torn him to shreds in a second.

Yes. I would've. Again, the point I make (not just to you but to everyone here who's arguing for replacement NPCs and so on) is that these things are irrelevant. Sure, if you have a DUMB RAILED STORY you may think it's a necessity. If you look harder though and break down your game to the one single thing it's about (IE: Defeating the Bad guy), you'll realise it's not.

No game is perfect, and few games let you massacre everything and give you a contingency plan for killing/destroyig the alternatives. What surprises me is why everyone is demanding so much from Beth. Are the standards higher when it comes to them?

Yes, damnit.

Anything Bethesda do is going to be an indicator for Fallout 3 (despite what anyone may like to believe). If we have another "Chosen One" prophecy which you're railed into, it means Bethesda still haven't realised quite what the game is about and are still sticking to (what I consider to be) piss-poor story telling. It's not about the prophecy. That's just how the story is chosen to be told to the player. If they don't fulfil the prophecy but can still defeat the bad guy, what should it matter? Of coure, it should matter, but the result can be shown quite nicely in a few simple end-game slides which talk about how "People abandoned religion after the guy who defeated the bad guy wasn't the second coming of Jesus", rather than "Oh fuck. Erm.. you completed the game without doing all that shit. Oh.. Well.. Umm.. Here! Have the second coming of Jesus movie end-game anyway and we'll just ignore what you've done".

That's the difference between a good game where you actually have some real choice in the matter and a railed one, where any choice is superficial and meaningless.

 

[Psilon]

That's also one of the things that Daggerfall did properly. The story wasn't about the PC becoming anything special. Instead, the story was about the feuding powers of High Rock and Hammerfell, with the Emperor and Underking trying to rein them in. The PC is just an errand boy, hired muscle, working his way up in political influence rather than raw power. Wayrest even thinks so little of the PC that they send assassins after him once they have the Totem--the main objective--in their hands. Even better, finding Numidium wasn't actually the player's main objective until halfway through the game.

A good rule of thumb seems to involve not centering upon and dispensing godlike powers to the PC unless you're willing to follow through with them. Arcanum started off with a "chosen one" prophecy, but that plot continually diverged as it progressed. Geneforge let you run amok, smiting everything on Sucia Island, if you actually gave in to temptation and used the Geneforge. Escape Velocity Nova cranked you up to demigod status in several plot strings, but the gameplay never reflected this. Despite the plot's "dramatic" revelations of your increasing telepathic/prescient abilities, the actual game revolved around packing as many Thunderhead Lances, 150mm Railguns, or Polaron Multi-Torpedoes onto your ship as humanly possible and then punching the fire button. Morrowind didn't really offer the Nerevarine much, either. A few new greetings from townsfolk and immunity to three types of rare disease seemed to be it, and there wasn't much in the way of Temple persecution beforehand.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

DarkUnderlord, you say that Bethesda has a habit of railed stories, yet the only Bethesda game you mention is Morrowind. You need to talk about Arena and Daggerfall, too -- you can't complain about a tendency and then point to only one example. And you certainly can't complain about Oblivion, since you haven't played it yet.

 

[Psilon]

MSFD, I will admit that Morrowind was actually an improvement over Daggerfall (gasp!) in this respect. While there were two ways to find Lysandus's real corpse (the Ancient Watcher or the infamous Elysana betrayal quest), the Totem quests were completely linear. And, of course, all the quest NPCs were invulnerable to attack. The back door using Yagrum Bagarn was a nice improvement. I'll give you guys credit for the speed-demo trick as well, though I suspect that one was an unintentional consequence of the overpowered alchemy system.

 

[jiujitsu]

Will dwarves make their glorious return in Oblivion?