Incline Icewind Dale in TToEE Engine Total Conversion - Prologue Demo Released

[Allyx]

I'm sure Neverwinter Nights had a huge appeal factor, sexy 3D maps, D&D ruleset, real time game play with the option to auto-pause of turn changes, it seems like a win - win product on paper... trouble was the implementation of it didn't "feel like" D&D to me, the auto-pause feature "worked" in a fashion, but it felt more like the game was suffering from lag than a part of the game, the myriad of semi-magical items that were never in any D&D publication annoyed the hell out of me and devalued the whole concept of magical items.

 

[catfood]

sexy 3D maps

 

[Mustawd]

Can someone post some screenshots from that Co8 thread? You have to register to see images larger than a postage stamp.

Spoiler

 

[Severian Silk]

Can someone post some screenshots from that Co8 thread? You have to register to see images larger than a postage stamp.

So is the camera angle the same or not?

 

[Mustawd]

The diff between IWD and ToEE are p. negligible. Which those images are trying to show.

 

[Lacrymas]

Here's an interesting thought - instead of endlessly converting the old games to different engines (BG to NWN2, BG to DA:O, IWD to TOEE, Fallout to I-forgot-which-one, KotOR1 to I-have-no-idea, countless other examples) the people who do that create a new game in those engines? Spoiler Alert: Those games aren't actually all that good (with the exception of Fallout), they are very unimaginative and drag along pointlessly. Why must gaming constantly be steeped in the past and literally old ground? I am aware that making a game isn't easy, but if you can convert the whole of IWD to TOEE you can make a new game. Maybe I am extra sensitive to oldness because I'm constantly in a creative environment where the past is being recycled in the most grotesque and disgusting manner possible (i.e. with no alterations or twists).

 

[Mustawd]

To even make a new game in ToEE you'd need:

1. A writer
2. Good 3D artist
3. Someone familiar with modding ToEE


Unfortunately, most ppl in #2 are too busy wasting their time with FO4 mods and #3 is extremely limited.

Just thinking of level design and proper composition of a map layout is hard enough before throwing in artistic style, encounter design and balance, etc etc.

 

[Allyx]

To even make a new game in ToEE you'd need:

1. A writer
2. Good 3D artist
3. Someone familiar with modding ToEE

1. Could be avoided completely by just using another classic D&D module - like the KotB mod already available for ToEE
2. Most 3D art can be ripped directly from ToEE, a few specific models may be required from time to time for monsters not native to ToEE, but we have had some success with adding or adapting monsters from existing models. Good 2D artists for the isometric maps are what we really lack - hence the whole idea of converting IWD, the maps are already awesome, the correct angle (near enough) and the right scale to copy from one game to the other relatively seemlessly.
3. There are only a handful of Modder's currently active eith the knowledge required to build a new game on ToEE's engine, I could perhaps name 5 at best, but in all honesty, it's not that hard, and all steps are well documented on Co8.org forums.

 

[Lacrymas]

Mustawd, you are saying that like we don't have examples of good encounter design people can use. We also have countless examples of artistic styles (yet people constantly use the same one). We can use old games as templates for new ones, shocking I know. That doesn't mean be literally like them, just use the aspects which are appropriate, instead of trying to discover the wheel for the 10,000th time. We don't though and that's why this industry has the shortest memory span that churns out the same mistakes over and over.

About the lack of good 2D artists - finding good artists in general is hard, but not out of lack of people trying to be artists. There are many with useless art degrees because they don't have the knowledge and skills needed to be a good artist. Gaming uses the same old shit that got banal and cliche 25 years ago, with very few exceptions. Good artists get rejected constantly because they are offering something new (me included), but devs literally want their game to be like something else. Then they wonder why their game has failed, funny that. I'm not saying this in the line of "art games", those games are neither art nor games most of the time. Phew, I went on a tangent there, but my point still stands, that good artists are indeed hard to find and also get rejected a lot, and may be jaded from that experience. I speculate that good programmers are also hard to find, so I guess that's nothing new.

 

[Severian Silk]

I could make 2D environmental graphics using digital LEGO. What I don't know how to do is animate/rig these and import them into ToEE:

 

[Mustawd]

No, you dummies. We need 3D artists as the biggest issue is lack of new maps. The maps were 3d and then rendered into 2D.

Would play lego rpg though.

 

[LibertyRansom]

Here's an interesting thought - instead of endlessly converting the old games to different engines (BG to NWN2, BG to DA:O, IWD to TOEE, Fallout to I-forgot-which-one, KotOR1 to I-have-no-idea, countless other examples) the people who do that create a new game in those engines? Spoiler Alert: Those games aren't actually all that good (with the exception of Fallout), they are very unimaginative and drag along pointlessly. Why must gaming constantly be steeped in the past and literally old ground? I am aware that making a game isn't easy, but if you can convert the whole of IWD to TOEE you can make a new game. Maybe I am extra sensitive to oldness because I'm constantly in a creative environment where the past is being recycled in the most grotesque and disgusting manner possible (i.e. with no alterations or twists).

Given the limited ToEE modders I'd prefer they take a proven product and convert.

It's much less work for the Modder, given the existing assets, story, design etc. Far more likely the end result of a conversion mod will be both completed and enjoyable. While I'd love a brand new module that has great design, story and encounters, its just not practical given the limited existing ToEE community.

Look at it this way. NWN had a huge number of original modules (1,000+). However, I'd say less than 1% were of good quality. Now, while I'd love for Allyx to be the chosen one and be capable of making an awesome soups to nuts original ToEE module, (1) it's not practical; and (2) it's not probable.

Finally, given the complete lack of ANY other modules (other than Keep on the Borderlands), I'd rather have a reliable result than a potential failure. The ToEE engine is the best D&D engine I am aware of. I love it but I'm sick of replaying the same module.

 

[Dwarvophile]

Right now, I'd play whatever game or mod provided it ends the curse that have all nice RPGs spoiled by tedious RTwP combats.

Indeed, this is some good news.

 

[Severian Silk]

When JA2 1.13 was made, first things that appeared were updates to existing products, not entirely new ones. Old stuff like Unfinished Business, Wildfire, Urban Chaos, etc.

 

[Mustawd]

2. Most 3D art can be ripped directly from ToEE, a few specific models may be required from time to time for monsters not native to ToEE, but we have had some success with adding or adapting monsters from existing models. Good 2D artists for the isometric maps are what we really lack - hence the whole idea of converting IWD, the maps are already awesome, the correct angle (near enough) and the right scale to copy from one game to the other relatively seemlessly.
3. There are only a handful of Modder's currently active eith the knowledge required to build a new game on ToEE's engine, I could perhaps name 5 at best, but in all honesty, it's not that hard, and all steps are well documented on Co8.org forums.

Allyx, you'd need 3D artists for the pre-rendered backgrounds mate. And we both know the ToEE ones are probably the best of its kind. Put them next to any of the IE game backgrounds and it's obvious how high quality they were.

For #3, some documentation would help. Not saying it's impossible. Hell, I would love to devote 6 months to learning how to make these pre-rendered backgrounds. But getting a team together for that? A bit harder. I'm merely listing the limitations.


On the other hand, a lone modder for NWN can make a very inferior version, albeit a complete one. One idea I've been kicking around would be to port high quality NWN modules to the ToEE engine. At the end of the day, you still need a talented 3D artist to make the environments.


EDIT: Anyway, a TB IE engine game has been my dream since I first played BG back in 2000. So this project will hopefully capture the imagination of some dormant modders

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Here's an interesting thought - instead of endlessly converting the old games to different engines (BG to NWN2, BG to DA:O, IWD to TOEE, Fallout to I-forgot-which-one, KotOR1 to I-have-no-idea, countless other examples) the people who do that create a new game in those engines? Spoiler Alert: Those games aren't actually all that good (with the exception of Fallout), they are very unimaginative and drag along pointlessly. Why must gaming constantly be steeped in the past and literally old ground? I am aware that making a game isn't easy, but if you can convert the whole of IWD to TOEE you can make a new game. Maybe I am extra sensitive to oldness because I'm constantly in a creative environment where the past is being recycled in the most grotesque and disgusting manner possible (i.e. with no alterations or twists).

porn?

 

[Glop_dweller]

Lamia's +3 Longsword is the Sword of Omens from Thundercats.

this I did not know though I'm not sure what the Sword of Omens is but can take a reasonable guess, and that Lamia was a strange encounter

It's the sword:

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Here's an interesting thought - instead of endlessly converting the old games to different engines (BG to NWN2, BG to DA:O, IWD to TOEE, Fallout to I-forgot-which-one, KotOR1 to I-have-no-idea, countless other examples) the people who do that create a new game in those engines? Spoiler Alert: Those games aren't actually all that good (with the exception of Fallout), they are very unimaginative and drag along pointlessly.

Even bigger spoiler alert: if it was so easy to make crpgs better than games from 80's/90's, guess what, someone would have done it already. I don't know if you live suspended in some alternate reality, but from where I stand I can see quite a lot of recent(-ish) games that tried to develop on old but gold standards, made by professional and often well-funded devs. And the results aren't particularly stellar. And definitely not better than those old "not so good" games.

Also, what you're saying is pretty dumb anyway, since putting IE games in ToEE (especially the combat system) actually does make a new game. It's not some random retarded idea like putting BG into DA engine, this one actually makes perfect sense.

 

[Lacrymas]

Lol, no, they failed because they didn't understand the good parts of the old games, not because "it's hard". You actually need to put some thought into making a coherent game, shocking I know, and all of the kickstarted ones show the complete opposite of that. Only smaller budget games got it right - AoD, UnderRail, maybe Serpent in the Staglands, maybe Lords of Xulima etc. That amounts to nothing in the end though, because what the kickstarted RPGs managed to do is sell and in any given industry that speaks louder than words. Which means they won't even try to understand what they did wrong. We are forever doomed to repeat the practices of all the other entertainment industries and nothing can be done.

Saying that a game is different because it got ported to a different engine is like saying a painting is different because someone copied it in different types of paint. You are still going to be sued for copyright, no matter how ingenious you thought it was.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Lol, no, they failed because they didn't understand the good parts of the old games, not because "it's hard".

Only smaller budget games got it right - AoD, UnderRail, maybe Serpent in the Staglands, maybe Lords of Xulima etc.

What vague statement. Also lol @ using AoD as the first example.

Saying that a game is different because it got ported to a different engine is like saying a painting is different because someone copied it in different types of paint.

Errr... No, it's not.

 

[Mustawd]

Lol, no, they failed because they didn't understand the good parts of the old games, not because "it's hard".

They failed because "it's hard". Don't you get it? Game design is not fucking easy. Look at all the free tools out there. You literally need three types of people to make a good game, but most projects never get finished or are total crap. Why? Because bringing efforts together for a game is difficult. If anything the best way to make a game is to make 3 or 4 crappy and small scope games first to learn from each one of them. But hardly anyone does that because they're all in a big damn hurry to finish the "BEST RPG EVER MADE TM".

Only smaller budget games got it right - AoD, UnderRail, maybe Serpent in the Staglands, maybe Lords of Xulima etc.

That's survivor bias, by the way. What about all the other Kickstarted games that never got finished?

We are forever doomed to repeat the practices of all the other entertainment industries and nothing can be done.

Stfu. All we need are good modules ppl can model after. Thing about any craft out there. You first learn by copying. In art there is a thing called "master studies" where you try your best to copy a master and learn in the process. That's what emulating good and great games does. Trying to trail blaze on your own from day one is dumb.

Saying that a game is different because it got ported to a different engine is like saying a painting is different because someone copied it in different types of paint.

You don't get it. Porting a game from the IE engine to ToEE teaches so many damn things due to having to make adjustments. Making adjustments to TB combat. Making adjustments to how information and UI are presented. Etc etc. and yes, the game will feel completely different.



Look, I empathize with your point. I want new stuff as well. However, let's see how this project goes. I bet it will spark people's imaginations, and hopefully we can get some new modules here and there. Like you said, there is a ton of stuff from PnP already out there. All we need to do is leverage it.

 

[Sitra Achara]

KotB is a good example of how development of a brand new module for ToEE would unfold, make of that what you will...

 

[Mustawd]

My point is that modules like KotB are doable. However, projects like IWD total conversion are great steps to spark modders' imaginations and motivate them to create new modules. So merely "redoing" old game sin new engines has its merits. It's not a fruitless endeavor.

 

[Reinhardt]

But hardly anyone does that

Savage Bliss.

 

[Murk]

Those screenshots look very tantalizing.