I'm at the end of my rope on this one: BG2.

[Xor]

I'm sure he's talking about all the little exploits someone with knowledge of BG2 can use to make the game easier. Like using Death Spell on the mind flayers you have to fight early in the drow city quests, or using Protection from Undead and the mace of disruption to kill any lich.

The main problem with that assertion is that you only really discover those things by playing the game (or by reading gamefaqs). And discovering those kinds of things is usually pretty fulfilling, because despite what we may think now that we know them, they aren't always obvious.

 

[GarfunkeL]

People, seriously, install SCS and SCS2. Makes a world of difference. Also, some encounters in BG are slightly level-scaled - go to gnoll fortress before clearing Nashkel mines and you won't have to fight so many gnolls.

How anyone can avoid the ogre at the 2nd map, especially after getting a quest to kill it, is beyond me. And to people who complain about grinding monsters for xp in BG - you are doing it wrong. Sure, it's possible, but you do get plenty enough xp just going through the main plot, which will also keep it somewhat challenging. And again, install SCS to make it more so, as it fixes many of the typical powergaming tricks and exploits.

 

[Ringhausen]

A fallacy followed by a form of Argumentum ad populum. What you are saying is that because it ends up on the codex top something lists this makes it beyond a matter of taste. "Nah, probably we're all just filthy plebs and you are part of the master race." is what you are implying you yourself are in this case.

BG2 did something but it was not alone in what it did. BG2 is not a unique game of innovation and brilliance. It is BG1xscale. Large, imaginative dungeons, a party that feels alive, true the P&P RPG spirit goodness Christ man this is the sort of drivel you'd read off the back of the box and not an argument for quality. Just because BG2's name is close to Arcanum and Fallout doesn't mean it is comparable to these games, KOTOR is of note in the timeline of RPG's and often shows up the exact same lists but would you argue it comparable to Fallout and Arcanum?

BG2 is not particularly buggy and it usually doesn't lag, but it is an easy to break system so how is BG2 objectively good especially considering that you just listed a series of things you subjectively consider good? Fallacy, Argumentum ad populum and paradox, we're going nowhere backwards at this point. Elaborate, this is the written word not small talk.

Actually the fallacy I used was the appeal to probability. Since Torment is number 1 and it's good, Fallout is 2 and good, same with Arcanum, then the fourth RPG on the list should also be pretty good. And it is!

We can list of the things that the Holy Trinity excel at to show how BG2 pales in comparison. But instead of getting a quest to check out some ruins in Arcanum and then go through a diabloesque fight sequence I'd prefer to have a proper setup, a large dungeon with various enemies, tactical fights, some lore or story in between, that maybe an NPC even reacts to, and a simple puzzle or two. Good stuff that is either missing or lacking in those better games.

Kotor is a watered down bg2 so I don't have much to say about that. And I don't know why you bring up bugs, which there were plenty of before the unofficial patch, or breakability since harm and critical hits are much worse.

 

[almondblight]

Was _anyone_ talking about grinding monsters for XP? Most comments on this thread is about how easy the fights are and how tedious they become. Suggestions people have made so far have been how to avoid the monsters, not fight more of them. I don't think anyone on this thread talked about how they intentionally look for more trash mobs in BG.

I'm sure he's talking about all the little exploits someone with knowledge of BG2 can use to make the game easier. Like using Death Spell on the mind flayers you have to fight early in the drow city quests, or using Protection from Undead and the mace of disruption to kill any lich.

The main problem with that assertion is that you only really discover those things by playing the game (or by reading gamefaqs). And discovering those kinds of things is usually pretty fulfilling, because despite what we may think now that we know them, they aren't always obvious.

Yeah, I guess this is a large part of it. At its heart, combat is a puzzle. Winning is figuring out the puzzle, find the "correct way" out. In a game like chess, the number of possibilities is so many (since each move changes the dynamic of several other pieces), that it's hard for the average player to find out the "best" move. CRPG's usually can't reach that level of complexity (balancing each move so that it affects several positions), so they tend to make up for that with quantity (spells, ranged and melee weapons, items), and diversity (different monsters, resistant ones, etc.). Randomness is usually added, so that you don't fight each battle exactly the same way (though the tactics you employ are usually similar after you figure out the right one).

As I mentioned, the problem with BG is that the Infinity Engine gets rid of grid and turn based movement, and the following real time movements don't lend enough to make up for this loss (you don't run into the same strategic implications of fighter positioning). Weak enemies and the nature of the spell system (you don't want to waste spells) means that you will probably be using the same tactics (archery) over and over again on most enemies, which gets boring. Having some sort of regenerating mana, fewer and more powerful enemies, and making positioning more important and easier to handle would improve things a lot.

Still, finding ways to break the system is fun, since it's also a way of figuring out the "puzzle".

 

[bussinrounds]

Maybe when i finish BG1, i should just start a fresh BG2 game with a few mods like you mentioned ?

Not a bad idea. Finish game, take notes on your character.

Come back here (I'll post my modlist the 28th when I get to my desktop), re-install, start BG2.

Are you gonna post it up ? Looks like i don't have the Darkest Day after all. Here's the link to the mods i have installed (3rd post) http://www.shsforums.net/topic/47220-pr ... 1f2f311994

 

[LoPan]

Actually the fallacy I used was the appeal to probability. Since Torment is number 1 and it's good, Fallout is 2 and good, same with Arcanum, then the fourth RPG on the list should also be pretty good. And it is!

Probability cannot be applied to an argument of what is good, because what good means cannot be quantified or made into chance. When dealing with something being good or not you cannot play the odds, it is not applicable to the circumstances of perspectives and ideas.

Your argument was a form of argumentum ad populum because it relied on the codex knowing what is good. A lot of people liking something does not make it good not even the seemingly right people. Appeal to probability is the fallacy that something is correct because, by mathematical probability, it will one day be correct, which does not fit into your argument what so ever. What you seem to be arguing is that going down the list of top RPG's the fourth one (to use as an example) must be good, and yes it just might, but not necessarily, and, as you have argued, not for everyone. The position of something on a list, numbered or otherwise, is not a mark of its merit no matter what else populated the list since the quality of a product already produced cannot be influenced by its name being written down somewhere close to the name of another product.

We can list of the things that the Holy Trinity excel at to show how BG2 pales in comparison. But instead of getting a quest to check out some ruins in Arcanum and then go through a diabloesque fight sequence I'd prefer to have a proper setup, a large dungeon with various enemies, tactical fights, some lore or story in between, that maybe an NPC even reacts to, and a simple puzzle or two. Good stuff that is either missing or lacking in those better games.

Arcanum is not a dungeon crawl or a hack and slash and neither is fallout. BG2 is, or tries to be, or at least that is exactly what you seem to enjoy in it, a dungeon crawling, hack and slash with a right feign of a story, and that's fine. Dungeon crawls can be all good and well but in a dungeon crawl the combat mechanics are very important and in a good dungeon crawl there is more to survival than combat--hell even Eye of the Beholder had rations, though not much else than that if my memory serves me duly.

Kotor is a watered down bg2 so I don't have much to say about that. And I don't know why you bring up bugs, which there were plenty of before the unofficial patch, or breakability since harm and critical hits are much worse.

KOTOR is watered down D&D and does not run in the infinity engine, it is not comparable to BG2 just because Bioware made it. I brought up bugs and breakability because you claimed the game to be 'objectively good' after bringing up subjective reasons for liking it, which I claimed was a paradoxical piece of writing. Arcanum had a poor combat system with greater imbalance than BG2 but it was not about the combat because if it was then you'd never see it on those fanciful lists.

I'm sure he's talking about all the little exploits someone with knowledge of BG2 can use to make the game easier. Like using Death Spell on the mind flayers you have to fight early in the drow city quests, or using Protection from Undead and the mace of disruption to kill any lich.

The main problem with that assertion is that you only really discover those things by playing the game (or by reading gamefaqs). And discovering those kinds of things is usually pretty fulfilling, because despite what we may think now that we know them, they aren't always obvious.

Quite right.

People, seriously, install SCS and SCS2. Makes a world of difference. Also, some encounters in BG are slightly level-scaled - go to gnoll fortress before clearing Nashkel mines and you won't have to fight so many gnolls.

How anyone can avoid the ogre at the 2nd map, especially after getting a quest to kill it, is beyond me. And to people who complain about grinding monsters for xp in BG - you are doing it wrong. Sure, it's possible, but you do get plenty enough xp just going through the main plot, which will also keep it somewhat challenging. And again, install SCS to make it more so, as it fixes many of the typical powergaming tricks and exploits.

So far not so good I'm afraid. Past Nashkel and Gnoll Fortress on SCS and I barely spot the difference between SCS and vanilla BG, then again I am still in the early game. I never grind in these games (except on bears in vanilla BG because it's entertaining) but I imagine that if you did you could rather spoil it; dear me, now you gave me an inclination.





And as always, sad as always to say, I agree with almondblight.

 

[almondblight]

Well, finished act 4 and went one to act 5, and the game (the first Baldur's Gate) has gotten much better. Part of that is that the fights now often require at least some thought, with a few even being a bit difficult. Part of that is overall better dungeon design - the Cloakwood Forest mines felt much better than the Nashkel mines, which felt much better than the gnoll fortress (which was awful). The Cloakwood Forest mines had a decent design, more than "lots of thin twisty tunnels", and had strong opponents in reasonable locations, as well as allies in reasonable places. Another thing I liked a lot about Cloakwood is it really tried to give the monsters some depth, from the man training the Wyverns and Coran's quest, to the woman transformed into the spider in the middle of the spider infested area.

In general the maps seem to have gotten more interesting as well. I really liked the basilisk area, where you can get the ghoul to help you and use him as a decoy while you take out the basilisks, or the woman that is turned to stone there you can free.

One thing I've been liking/been disappointed in has been how the game deals with conflicts of interest. For example, the druids who want to kill the nobleman because he killed one of their own, or the artist that stole the jewels to make his ultimate sculpture. The game provides you with situations that could be tough moral choices. Unfortunately, it always (at least so far) resolves those issues for you, as picking the most reasonable outcome ("hey, let's discuss this") will make the "bad people" attack you.

 

[SCO]

Try to charm and talk to the spider lady and basileus.

 

[Ringhausen]

Your argument was a form of argumentum ad populum because it relied on the codex knowing what is good. A lot of people liking something does not make it good not even the seemingly right people. Appeal to probability is the fallacy that something is correct because, by mathematical probability, it will one day be correct, which does not fit into your argument what so ever

Yes, yes, quite true, I cannot prove that this game is good, but I can argue for it in a rational manner, and I cannot bring myself to admit that I used something as low as ad populum for my case. It was more about authority after all, another fallacy but what can I do. I will dismiss Twilight, Transformers and some random IGN list just as lightly as you, but when a list is full of mostly good games I'd be declined to write one of them off as crap even if I found no enjoyment from it. Like Fallout, I didn't like it, but thinking with a clear mind all its virtues become obvious. Of course in this day and age people do tend to consider works like War and Piece hipster bullshit if they did not have fun reading it or failed to get anything substantial out of it. Which is quite disturbing.

Arcanum is not a dungeon crawl or a hack and slash and neither is fallout. BG2 is, or tries to be, or at least that is exactly what you seem to enjoy in it, a dungeon crawling, hack and slash with a right feign of a story, and that's fine. Dungeon crawls can be all good and well but in a dungeon crawl the combat mechanics are very important and in a good dungeon crawl there is more to survival than combat--hell even Eye of the Beholder had rations, though not much else than that if my memory serves me duly.

That is certainly a good defense, claiming what Arc-Fal are not, yet I seem to recall Vault 13, Black Mountain Clan and other areas being long, time-consuming dungeons and simply bad ones, dull even on the first playthrough and missing everything that made BG2 good. Fallout may get a pass for the extreme irony though. Arcanum on the other hand tried to be Fallout, Torment, BG2, Diablo and god knows what else in one and ended up being a half baked broken mess. We criticize BG2 for what it lacks, so let's be fair treat the rest in the same manner.

 

[LoPan]

Yes, yes, quite true, I cannot prove that this game is good, but I can argue for it in a rational manner, and I cannot bring myself to admit that I used something as low as ad populum for my case. It was more about authority after all, another fallacy but what can I do. I will dismiss Twilight, Transformers and some random IGN list just as lightly as you, but when a list is full of mostly good games I'd be declined to write one of them off as crap even if I found no enjoyment from it. Like Fallout, I didn't like it, but thinking with a clear mind all its virtues become obvious. Of course in this day and age people do tend to consider works like War and Piece hipster bullshit if they did not have fun reading it or failed to get anything substantial out of it. Which is quite disturbing.

That is certainly a good defense, claiming what Arc-Fal are not, yet I seem to recall Vault 13, Black Mountain Clan and other areas being long, time-consuming dungeons and simply bad ones, dull even on the first playthrough and missing everything that made BG2 good. Fallout may get a pass for the extreme irony though. Arcanum on the other hand tried to be Fallout, Torment, BG2, Diablo and god knows what else in one and ended up being a half baked broken mess. We criticize BG2 for what it lacks, so let's be fair treat the rest in the same manner.

I do find the idea of 'fun', especially the one about videogames being all about 'fun' or 'entertainment', very strange. Surely there are more feelings in life than 'fun' and 'not fun'. Goodness knows there are many that are far more valuable to you and feel a lot better, possibly painted myself into an innuendo again.


I criticize BG2 for what it is and not for what it lacks because that is hardly the start of its problems, first things first and all that, and I don't think it's quite right to go about claiming Arcanum to be trying to be like a series of other famous games, seems rather crude. The point is about where the quality in these games lie. Arcanum had the black mountain but it did not have a long string of black mountains because chiefly that was not what the game was about, and when the black mountain came it did not bother me because the game had consumed me with its world and story. There was something else there you cared about whilst in BG2 the farther I got the longer the list became of things I actively did not care about yet, obviously, had to deal with.

We are dealing with the intangible and confusing topic of what is good and why with the strange word-mystery of 'taste' put upon it and it is such a nebulous piece of business that it is hard to not speak mostly of all the things we don't know; after all, it is very easy to forget what we don't know. Perhaps I will one day return to BG2 and love it for all it is but for now I feel I have played better dungeon-crawl RPG's and I have played better story-based RPG's and I have played RPG's that mixed the two a lot better than BG2 although I cannot deny that perhaps this is all a case of feeling contempt for familiarity, and really, I can't help but think, in regards to your response, fair enough.

Well, finished act 4 and went one to act 5, and the game...

I do recall BG2 getting much better around cloakwood, it was at least one of the more memorable places, and I am assuming you haven't gone to Firewine yet because if you had then the gnoll fortress would seem a glorious thing in comparison.


Moral choice is a bit of a buzz phrase, surely. I cannot bring to mind a game which did it well, but I suppose what you may mean is just basic choice of any kind, or interacting with your situation or alignment and so on. There are times when they let you make some genuine choices but they are few and far between and it really is an awful shame how so many of the interesting quests turn out to be nothing but quests in the worst use of the word. The ghoul-basilisk incident is the sort of thing I'd take over a quest though since you feel you stumble on something, I find personal motivation can't help but intrigue itself on such things.

 

[SCO]

SCS I & II and that level scaled encounters thing on BGT does make the game substantially harder (not to mention the item randomizer - ring of wizardry where are you).
Firewine for instance gets the improved vampirific wolf that summons dread wolfs.

Rape incoming.

Worse was that other labyrinth, connected to that halfling village: now there is a patrolling mage in the labyrinth (rape on a non-thief party) and the ogre mage gets reinforced by the halfling traitor if he still lives (he probably will since you're not likely to have see invisible and he drinks invisibility potions if you confront him in the surface and retreats).

 

[octavius]

SCS I & II and that level scaled encounters thing on BGT does make the game substantially harder (not to mention the item randomizer - ring of wizardry where are you).
Firewine for instance gets the improved vampirific wolf that summons dread wolfs.

Rape incoming.

Worse was that other labyrinth, connected to that halfling village: now there is a patrolling mage in the labyrinth (rape on a non-thief party) and the ogre mage gets reinforced by the halfling traitor if he still lives (he probably will since you're not likely to have see invisible and he drinks invisibility potions if you confront him in the surface and retreats).

I love Sword Coast Strategems.

 

[LoPan]

SCS I & II and that level scaled encounters thing on BGT does make the game substantially harder (not to mention the item randomizer - ring of wizardry where are you).
Firewine for instance gets the improved vampirific wolf that summons dread wolfs.

Rape incoming.

Worse was that other labyrinth, connected to that halfling village: now there is a patrolling mage in the labyrinth (rape on a non-thief party) and the ogre mage gets reinforced by the halfling traitor if he still lives (he probably will since you're not likely to have see invisible and he drinks invisibility potions if you confront him in the surface and retreats).

When I said Firewine I meant Firewine Ruins, that dreadful maze of kobolds and pathfinding/positioning fright. I suppose you mean Firewine bridge has the vampiric wolves and the maze is, well, the Firewine Ruin maze which I recall as being connected to the halfling village, and all that you said does sound pretty good but I can only imagine that in the Infinity Engine even that would come off as a bit slipshod, if you would pardon the skepticism.

 

[Edwin]

comparing BG2 to all RPG's, not just the 'modern' ones, has it rate a near disaster. Compare BG2 to Fallout (even Fallout 2), the work of Troika, Pools of Radiance or even its predecessor, and it is hard to find it anything but a poor game.

Imo BG2 is the best game ever.It was just perfect in that day and age no matter how I look at it ,that was the point in my life when I said:wow I cant wait to see what kind of RPGs I will get to play 10 years later if this game is so awesome.

I dont know what happened with Bioware,I cant believe that they can make something like Dragon Age 2 after a BG2(seriously,every new Bioware employee should do nothing else in his first half year just play Baldurs Gate 1-2,they forgot everything what made that game great).

 

[sgc_meltdown]

every new Bioware employee should do nothing else in his first half year just play Baldurs Gate 1-2,they forgot everything what made that game great.

Yeah, and Bethesda employees should all play only daggerfall for half a year

 

[Serious_Business]

Baldur's Gate is the best game since Balders Gate fuck yeah man

imo

Baldur's Gate is the best game since Balders Gate fuck yeah man

imo

This.

Baldur's Gate is the best game since Balders Gate fuck yeah man

imo

This.

This.

Arughaluahahaha cock gobling and so on and so forth

 

[LoPan]

Baldur's Gate is the best game since Balders Gate fuck yeah man

imo

Baldur's Gate is the best game since Balders Gate fuck yeah man

imo

This.

Baldur's Gate is the best game since Balders Gate fuck yeah man

imo

This.

This.

Arughaluahahaha cock gobling and so on and so forth

Oh. You mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V30tyaXv6EI

 

[SCO]

I installed Dark Horizons in my game - which was a mistake, because although there are lots of hard new fights apparently, there is also a overabundance of overpowered loot (in BG1!) like +3 weapons and pink armor morninglords on lathander all over beregost.

The BP-Balancer thing doesn't yet address this mod (it modifies mod items to remove some of the ridiculousness).

Edit: Yep. It's ridiculous. The encounters are fine (very hard), +3 5% decapitation chance weapons or the bows of magic missile, or the merchants guarded by guys with flaming swords are most definitely not fine.

 

[octavius]

Maybe when i finish BG1, i should just start a fresh BG2 game with a few mods like you mentioned ?

Maybe you shouldn't repost my post on RPGWatch? At least put quotation marks around it.

 

[Mastermind]

every new Bioware employee should do nothing else in his first half year just play Baldurs Gate 1-2,they forgot everything what made that game great.

Yeah, and Bethesda employees should all play only daggerfall for half a year

Why? So TES 6 can have half a dozen useless language skills and just one dungeon tileset?

Daggerfail is a shit game. Worse than the average MMORPG in fact.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

BG1 was a horrible experience. BG2 was a bit better but not by much, still the same tired engine and wretched combat. Also I found the dialogues to be really emo.

For Infinity Engine-era games, the only one I found to be of any real worth was Planescape Torment. It still had the nasty combat of BG/IWD but the story and dialogue were much, much better.

As RPGs the BG games are really weak. BioWare got better with time.

 

[Xor]

BG1 was a horrible experience. BG2 was a bit better but not by much, still the same tired engine and wretched combat. Also I found the dialogues to be really emo.

Eh, personal preference. BG1 was short enough that I didn't get tired of it, and BG2 had enough variety in its battles that they stayed interesting through multiple playthroughs. I also don't see how the dialog is "emo" unless you're just talking about Aerie.

For Infinity Engine-era games, the only one I found to be of any real worth was Planescape Torment. It still had the nasty combat of BG/IWD but the story and dialogue were much, much better.

PST had worse combat than IWD and BG, but I'm willing to forgive that because the dialog is so solid. And the combat wasn't difficult by any stretch of the imagination, so at least battles ended quickly.

As RPGs the BG games are really weak. BioWare got better with time.

Wait, what?

 

[sea]

I tried getting back into Baldur's Gate 2 a day or two ago and just could not. The awful AI and pathfinding that meant my party was constantly getting hung up on walls, and the broken, fiddly combat that was either "pre-buff like crazy" or "switch on party AI, go get a sandwich, then return to loot" really just killed it for me. Maybe I just need to try getting back into it. I never had this much issue with the Infinity Engine in the past, but now it's borderline unplayable for me.

 

[Jaesun]

I tried getting back into Baldur's Gate 2 a day or two ago and just could not. The awful AI and pathfinding that meant my party was constantly getting hung up on walls, and the broken, fiddly combat that was either "pre-buff like crazy" or "switch on party AI, go get a sandwich, then return to loot" really just killed it for me. Maybe I just need to try getting back into it. I never had this much issue with the Infinity Engine in the past, but now it's borderline unplayable for me.

As mentioned many many times, try Sword Coast Strategems.

 

[sea]

Does that actually fix all the engine issues, though? I thought that was just a balance mod.