Inventory question

[Weierstraß]

The difference between a single number representing volume and inventory Tetris is that a single number is a one dimensional abstraction of volume while Tetris is a two dimensional abstraction. A single number does not take shape into account, meaning a fifteen meter pole with in your backpack if it's thin enough. Inventory Tetris mean things have not only volume but also shape.

Of course, you could make it even more detailed by going to three dimensions, and by using non-cuboid shapes.

That's not to say less abstractions are better, in many games you don't want packing to be a huge deal. Honestly, I think Bethesda has the right idea, with a single number representing both weight, volume and shape, their problem is that they seem to have no sensible system for how they arrive at a specific number for a specific item.

So if 2D is better than 1D then surely 3D is better than 2D. But 3D would be tedious compared to 2D, just like 2D would be in comparison to 1D.

I think you have to ask yourself what the player gains from arranging items in his inventory. What's the point in a player having to rearrange his/her whole inventory just to change two vertically aligned slots into two horizontally aligned slots just to fit in a belt, or the opposite to fit in a dagger. There's nothing in doing all that stuff that adds anything to an RPG. It's a mini-game, and the only justification people have for its inclusion seems to be something along the lines of them finding it fun.

If you read my second paragraph you see I specifically say it's not better. I could ask you the same, why do you want a system that takes into account both weight and volume rather than just weight?

It's about how complex a model you want and what purpose it serves in the game. Why do we need a limit on how much we can carry at all? The answer is different for different games. I'm sure some do not need limits at all, with the developers putting it in out of habit. That's the biggest issue, developers adding features without reflecting on what their role in the game should be.

 

[MMXI]

The difference between adding a volume limit and forcing the player to play Tetris with their inventory is quite clear. The former can add to the RPG mechanics while the latter doesn't. For example, elves may be able to hold a larger volume of items than dwarves simply because they are taller, while dwarves may be able to hold more weight because they may have greater strength. Of course, you could always add slots to a grid inventory for taller/larger characters, while keeping a weight limit, but that doesn't eliminate the need to play Tetris within it.

You could come up with auto sorting as a solution, but then you force the player to choose between their own visual organisation of their inventory for ease of access and the removal of inventory Tetris as an obstacle to gameplay. At least my method accommodates both of those. The visual organisation of the inventory is a tool for the player only, while the weight and volume limitations are part of the core game mechanics and work on the level of the RPG system.

 

[Weierstraß]

Still, your system takes weight and volume in account, but not shape. A shape mechanic can add to the RPG mechanics just as much as the other two. You can easily get around the problems with an auto-sort by having both an "inventory" screen and a "backpack" screen.

 

[deus101]

I hate list based inventories, Dragons's age and Mass Effects system with a list with 500 slots to fill is the worst of the lot.

You just scrounge and scrounge shit generic gear without thinking, and when you have filled up you have a humongus sorting task.

The IE's engines system was perfect, not limitless capacity in both weight and slots.
Because going through the loot and deciding what to ditch or not is sorta rewarding in the end.

And having the inventories to 6 chars just means a way to sort and memorize where you put shit.

Then you also have the containers which is a plus.


But most importantly...NO FUCKING.SCROLLING!(except for the containers but since there are limits on them you don't have a shit long list anyway)

 

[MMXI]

Still, your system takes weight and volume in account, but not shape. A shape mechanic can add to the RPG mechanics just as much as the other two. You can easily get around the problems with an auto-sort by having both an "inventory" screen and a "backpack" screen.

Tell me more.

 

[Giauz Ragnacock]

Eh, whatever. Weight and volume add virtually nothing to gameplay. They are just unimportant framing devices that act as parameters to stop you from acquiring more items, parameters that usually become moot as you level up. In some cases like TES games certain effects can raise your weight more or less just freezing you in place. Maybe even some cursed items refuse to budge out of your pack. Weight and volume are tired, uninteresting mechanics as far as I can tell.

Inventory tetris as I said can be good, as I said, just NOT on large multiple screens, with quest items taking up valuable space (this would feel the same as a cursed item in my pack), and with many items that do not have large impacts on survival.

The simplest solution is probably best. Have a limited party inventory with stacking, and have its size remain static (your cart or whatever). You always have to keep some space open for disequiping and reequiping your characters. When you need to dump some treasure you feel you may need later, find a deity or entrance to your pocket dimension (again whatever) to dump the stuff off on, which you can then access later at another shrine/portal/etc. sometime in the future. Quest items in this system do take up slots but can be dumped into the storage unit if not currently needed. This system worked quite well for the Japanese-only NES Final Fantasy 3 as I was constantly sweating on what to use, keep, pick up, or drop especially when in the middle of a dungeon filled with powerful enemies and not yet having an escape spell or in some cases where the magic of the dungeon foils the use of one (Bahamut's dungeon really sucks, especially after you beat him).

In the end, the inventory should work best for player usability no matter what system it employs. The suggestion I have just made I know works fine.

 

[MMXI]

Eh, whatever. Weight and volume add virtually nothing to gameplay. They are just unimportant framing devices that act as parameters to stop you from acquiring more items, parameters that usually become moot as you level up. In some cases like TES games certain effects can raise your weight more or less just freezing you in place. Maybe even some cursed items refuse to budge out of your pack. Weight and volume are tired, uninteresting mechanics as far as I can tell.

Bullshit. I can't think of many cRPGs that have done anything decent with even weight alone. There's so much scope for integration into the rest of the game mechanics. Saying that it's "unimportant", "uninteresting", "tired" and adds "virtually nothing to gameplay" just isn't true unless you are a truly poor game designer that can't think outside of existing products.

 

[Giauz Ragnacock]

But you're doing the same thing as many others. Decline. Think outside the box... maybe bring back a bunch of these mechanics straight out of older games. Try thinking outside the box for yourself on something like two number values that primarily determine if you can add just one more thing to your pack.

That said, maybe you could load up your guy(s) with as much stuff as possible, jump from a high point, and crush an enemy you had no better idea on how to defeat at a high HP cost that may kill you/ your party. There could be more if you and others could contribute, but right now it still doesn't feel all that worthwhile (nor does it matter if even one of the hobbyist programmers on the Codex doesn't get convinced it's worthwhile to work on).

 

[Excidium]

In the end, the inventory should work best for player usability no matter what system it employs. The suggestion I have just made I know works fine.

While it works, it really isn't ideal for an RPG.

Eh, whatever. Weight and volume add virtually nothing to gameplay. They are just unimportant framing devices that act as parameters to stop you from acquiring more items, parameters that usually become moot as you level up. In some cases like TES games certain effects can raise your weight more or less just freezing you in place. Maybe even some cursed items refuse to budge out of your pack. Weight and volume are tired, uninteresting mechanics as far as I can tell.

Bullshit. I can't think of many cRPGs that have done anything decent with even weight alone.

That's because most cRPGs have completely unbalanced values. Take Fallout, for instance, where a person of average strength can carry around 68 kg without being impaired.

If you have a balanced system, just a weight limit works just fine. There's no need to overthink it and try to add new mechanics to inventory management.

 

[MMXI]

If you have a balanced system, just a weight limit works just fine. There's no need to overthink it and try to add new mechanics to inventory management.

New mechanics?

 

[Excidium]

Yes, look at all the Inventory Manager 2012 ideas here. That last part was not directed at ye.

 

[Shadenuat]

That's because most cRPGs have completely unbalanced values. Take Fallout, for instance, where a person of average strength can carry around 68 kg without being impaired.

If you have a balanced system, just a weight limit works just fine.

I would guess most of the problems for implementing such system come from the fact that "economics" in RPGs usually is about killing a lot of things and selling everything dropped from 'em in a trip (or many).
BTW, I remember Fallout 1 actually handling weight limit good enough inbefore teh Power Armor came in my possesion. Ammo and drugs weighted just enough for me to think what weapon I want to really choose and what drugs I want for my next trip somewhere.

 

[Giauz Ragnacock]

[Excidium wrote:]While it works, it really isn't ideal for an RPG.[/quote]

Oh, come on, man! There have been many suggestions on what has been a good inventory system, all a bit different. My suggestion worked in that you could have a lot of loot, just not all at once because you have to be selective. Can I atleast get your side on what you said?

 

[Infinitron]

Simple idea:

How much you can carry depends on volume of your backpack alone. However, increasing weight has some degrading effect on your speed/stats. The effect is also a function of your strength - the stronger you are, the lesser the effect.

 

[MMXI]

Yes, look at all the Inventory Manager 2012 ideas here. That last part was not directed at ye.

Well I'm fine with just weight, as long as there are no other limitations such as limited slots. Limited slots tend to simulate space, and if space is going to be an issue then I'd much rather have it represented numerically like weight is in most RPGs. Of course, you end up with both weight and space measures to balance between, but at least you aren't limited to 12 (different) rings as you would be in a system with 12 slots.

However, increasing weight has some degrading effect on your speed/stats. The effect is also a function of your strength - the stronger you are, the lesser the effect.

Well obviously. I thought that was the whole point of having numerical values like that to play around with. That's almost a given in a good RPG. The interesting thing about capacity/space/volume numbers is that you can use it to affect things like your character's ability to sneak around and crawl through small tunnels. If you've got a lot of large but relatively light objects strapped to your body you can't exactly sneakily infiltrate a base. Similarly, you wouldn't want to go swimming if you have 20 rings of burden (?) on you.

 

[deus101]

Having a slot based inventory is just as much a gameplay limitation as it is an interface solution.

 

[Infinitron]

Well obviously. I thought that was the whole point of having numerical values like that to play around with. That's almost a given in a good RPG.

But modern RPGs (and most old ones too AFAIK) invariably use a step function, where your strength is effectively a hard upper limit on how much you can carry. One minute you're running, the next minute you're keeling over.

But in real life, your strength should rarely determine the upper limit on how much you can carry! You'll run out of room in your backpack long before it becomes too heavy to move, unless you're picking up cannon balls or something. BUT, a full backpack should still have some negative effect on your performance compared to an empty one.

 

[Excidium]

Yes bro, but who says the character is only carrying a single pack? The inventory itself is usually used as an abstraction of all the packs, bags, scabbards, etc the character is carrying.

That's because most cRPGs have completely unbalanced values. Take Fallout, for instance, where a person of average strength can carry around 68 kg without being impaired.

If you have a balanced system, just a weight limit works just fine.

I would guess most of the problems for implementing such system come from the fact that "economics" in RPGs usually is about killing a lot of things and selling everything dropped from 'em in a trip (or many).

Indeed, now that's something that really needs some thinking.

While it works, it really isn't ideal for an RPG.

Oh, come on, man! There have been many suggestions on what has been a good inventory system, all a bit different. My suggestion worked in that you could have a lot of loot, just not all at once because you have to be selective. Can I atleast get your side on what you said?

It isn't a bad method, but I don't like how it's completely independent from the characters' stats.

Simple idea:

How much you can carry depends on volume of your backpack alone. However, increasing weight has some degrading effect on your speed/stats. The effect is also a function of your strength - the stronger you are, the lesser the effect.

Ok, your weight limit depends on your backpacks. But as you carry more things, you are slowed down, and that is reduced by your strength score.

Aren't you going around to end up in the same place? Isn't it more simple to just have a table linking strength scores to carry capacity, and having certain weight thresholds (say, 50%, 75%, 125% of the limit) affect your speed?

 

[Infinitron]

I think the Witcher's inventory where you could only stockpile small stuff in the first place was pretty interesting. It avoided a lot of these problems.

 

[Excidium]

Yeah, it's fitting thematically.

 

[MMXI]

Having a slot based inventory is just as much a gameplay limitation as it is an interface solution.

Of course. If all items are one slot big then there's no Tetris involved, but you get silly situations where one character can carry 12 swords while another can only carry 12 rings, even though they have the same (high) strength. And if items are of varying shapes of slots (Diablo), you get more balance but with the added issue of having to shuffle things around to make room for new items. And if you have auto-sorting to solve this problem for you, you have to break your own spacial mapping of items, which is the main advantage of a grid inventory over a list inventory.

But modern RPGs (and most old ones too AFAIK) invariably use a step function, where your strength is effectively a hard upper limit on how much you can carry. One minute you're running, the next minute you're keeling over.

But in real life, your strength should rarely determine the upper limit on how much you can carry! You'll run out of room in your backpack long before it becomes too heavy to move, unless you're picking up cannon balls or something. BUT, a full backpack should still have some negative effect on your performance compared to an empty one.

I'm pretty sure that encumbrance affects movement points during combat in the Gold Box games.

 

[Daemongar]

I'm pretty sure that encumbrance affects movement points during combat in the Gold Box games.

Yah, not only that, but the weight of gold carried affected the encumbrance of a player. The max move base was 12 squares, which would scale down to 3 based on encumbrance. Almost everyone who ever played probably had an "What the hell?" moment when their players move base dropped down to 3 with no warning.

Also, some armor limited move base as well. (Simplistic combat system? Fiddlesticks!)

 

[mondblut]

I'm pretty sure that encumbrance affects movement points during combat in the Gold Box games.

Wizardry 6+ too. Pretty much every semi-advanced RPG has several levels of encumbrance with increasingly harsh penalties that cripple you long before you're 100% overweight. Perhaps even Fallout did, I can't remember.

Of course, the kids nowadays only know of the straw that breaks camel's back mechanic thanks to TES.

 

[Giauz Ragnacock]

The thing with stats affecting the inventory is that stats grow, making your carrying capacity grow. Likewise, some of the best items are not necessarily large, oddly shaped objects of incredible weight. There's got to be something to balance this out or you freaking know everyone including the KKKodex will be like, "Why are you having trouble? The game's easy. Just exploit..."

The other thing is that if all we are trying to pursue is verisimilitude and making the games more sim-like, won't the gameplay systems begin to look the same? Also, when has the system (inventory or otherwise) become too complex or unweildy?

 

[7hm]

The thing with stats affecting the inventory is that stats grow, making your carrying capacity grow. Likewise, some of the best items are not necessarily large, oddly shaped objects of incredible weight. There's got to be something to balance this out or you freaking know everyone including the KKKodex will be like, "Why are you having trouble? The game's easy. Just exploit..."

The other thing is that if all we are trying to pursue is verisimilitude and making the games more sim-like, won't the gameplay systems begin to look the same? Also, when has the system (inventory or otherwise) become too complex or unweildy?

good games place limits.

Different games require different types of inventory management. My favorite inventory management subgame is DCSS. Hard item number limit and weight limit based on your stats with a couple encumbrance levels and other impacts. Nethack also fine.