Is Chris Parker dragging Obsidian down?

[Volourn]

"When is the last time a decent sized developer has released a non-hybrid RPG? Was it ToEE?"

DA.

SOZ.

Like them or not, theya re full RPGs.

 

[Roguey]

Nope, he didn't say that. You just made that inference without any real proof at all. He said "We're Kill Bill." Now where did Brian Mitsoda say that his characters weren't? I guess you're thinking about the ITS interview? Nope he doesn't say that at all. He just mentions vague design principles for real world settings. You have no idea how that figures into AP or anything else for that matter. His examples were from MGS, not AP. Again, this is the exact same thing I'm talking about. You infer without knowing all the facts. Add to this that Avellone claims that Mitsodas characters are still in the game, and what do we get?

I admit that I'm speculating and could be totally off-base, but let's go Occam's Razor on this:
a) Alpha Protocol started out as a "realistic" game; characters and plot handled by Mitsoda who doesn't seem to be a fan of superpowers in non-fantasy "realistic" settings
b) Parker and Avellone decided realism was boring
c) Mitsoda leaves Obsidian, claims that "any characters I’m attributed with creating bear only a superficial resemblance to the ones in my original story."

Here's some more stuff to read:

Chris: It’s been pretty tough for us. You know, making fantasy games or making sci-fi games you can kind of make whatever you want and people just accept it as long as it looks cool, so you don’t have to be as convincing you just have to make stuff that looks really really rockin’. So when we started making a bunch of realistic stuff we quickly realized that making realistic stuff isn’t nearly as easy as making fantasy stuff and then when you go really REALLY realistic people think it’s kind of boring so we’ve veered away from that over time. Like Abia was saying, our characters got a little more over the top to kind of spice them up a bit; we definitely embraced some cinematic styles that we saw or referenced from the movies that we thought were cool, and added a lot of emotional content to the areas we were creating. And even some of the special abilities are a bit more flashy than really realistic. We use a lot of full screen effects, post processing, we use a lot of shaders that we’ve created to make stuff look really sweet. But then just have it rooted in realism so that people will have something to latch on to.

Not relevant in any way, but a funny ironic quote from an earlier link:

Avellone remains confident his team is on the right track, though. “The concern we have is that if we specialize too much we’ll dilute the experience. We could make a super-intensive stealth game, but we wanted to immerse the player in the story rather than get involved in the super nitty-gritty.”

 

[MetalCraze]

It's the second time you ignore an Obsidian developer contradicting your claims. Even more - this time it's Avellone himself. He himself says right there that Mitsoda characters were too deep for the retarded target audience so they had to Tarantinize them.

Nope, he didn't say that. You just made that inference without any real proof at all. He said "We're Kill Bill."

Maybe you should like try and reread that quote?
I understand that the skill of reading between the lines left Codex a long time ago and you didn't get any but Parker saying that they had to scrap characters because they are too realistic (aka normal, believable) with Avellone continuing his line by saying they wanted them to be unique (aka random, unbelievable - like they ended up to be) and referencing Kill Bill is very very straightforward and means just that.

Now where did Brian Mitsoda say that his characters weren't?

One of my previous posts on the 3rd page has his quote that you can't seem to find for the 3rd time.
You make fanboys look bad

I guess you're thinking about the ITS interview? Nope he doesn't say that at all.

Oh jeez. Ok if redding is teh hard for you here I will post it again

Any characters I’m attributed with creating bear only a superficial resemblance to the ones in my original story.

Because they are Kill Bill now
http://blogs.myspace.com/bmitsoda

Add to this that Avellone claims that Mitsodas characters are still in the game, and what do we get?

Avellone and Parker said that they've changed characters in that very quote saying that Mitsoda's characters were too realistic. Can't you read?
Or are you saying that both Mitsoda and Avellone lie because it doesn't go well with your reality?

 

[Fat Dragon]

a) Alpha Protocol started out as a "realistic" game; characters and plot handled by Mitsoda who doesn't seem to be a fan of superpowers in non-fantasy "realistic" settings
b) Parker and Avellone decided realism was boring
c) Mitsoda leaves Obsidian, claims that "any characters I’m attributed with creating bear only a superficial resemblance to the ones in my original story."

If that's how it really went down then my respect for Mitsoda increased. We need more developers who actually take pride in their work, and don't just lay down and take it when someone pisses on it and throws it out the window.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Seems pretty obvious that he formed Doublebear and started ZRPG because his ideas were scrapped for Alpha Protocol. I don't blame him either.

 

[denizsi]

Considering those past dev statements, it's ironic that Alpha Protocol feels as superficial as it gets. The story feels very dry and diluted. The back-and-forth flashbacks quickly feel very boring on subsequent plays. Characters are utterly insignificant.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Hmm. Could the game be blamed on a single man?
Normally I'd say no.
However, considering his status as an owner, and the fact that this was probably considered his pet project, it's very possible that Feargus and Avellone trusted his judgment and let him run with whatever he felt.
I've learned enough about office politics to know that a director can pretty much run his division any way he wants, doing whatever he wants, until the fuck ups become obvious. Then the higher ups step in.
In this case it would be Feargus and maybe anyone else that was his equal.
Even then, though, I find it highly unlikely that ONE man was responsible for what appears to be poor optimization.
What that one anonymous poster told me, based on his reaction, was that he was probably brought in from working on a different project, but didn't want to work on AP. Or, perhaps he was moved from AP to something else because he butted heads with the top brass. Yes, he could have been fired, but based on the fact that we are assuming what he is saying is the truth, he could still be employed with the company, and just has a huge grudge against this guy in particular.
Personally, I think everyone on up high is to blame, because the game appears supremely lackluster for what was promised. Bear in mind that I have no intention of playing this game. Also, do the little guys hold alot of blame for this game?
Absolutely. They are far from blameless. The only one who comes out of this cluster fuck shit sandwich completely clean is Mitsoda, simply because he washed his hands of the company before things got serious. However, when it comes down to it, poor programming, poor optimization, all of it, at the end of the day lays squarely on the shoulders of the leadership of this company, Obsidian. The coders obviously had little direction or inspirational leadership for this project. If they had either, they would have done more than the obviously bare minimum to get this thing out the door.

 

[Forest Dweller]

I don't really see how much blame can be put on the little guys if what that designer said is true. If you're given orders to implement something that doesn't really work well or fit in with other things, what else can you do?

 

[themadhatter114]

Yes, IF. That's the big question. How much credibility does that guy have, though? None.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

If you're a designer, and you care that much about a project, and you know you can't approach your direct boss, you go above the SOB to his superior. What this guy did tells me he didn't care enough to do that, he might have crossed this game off the moment he learned about it, or whatever.
Or maybe he did go to the other owners and they just brushed him off, saying it was Chris' turn or something. Can't say really, all we can do is guess.
However, guessing how Mitsoda and Carlson left Obsidian (maybe over AP) might actually show how obstinant and obtuse the higher ups were regarding suggestions and changes to their vision. Part of creating anything, being in business, politics, is compromise and knowing what is good business. Another major part is keeping your employees happy enough to gladly work for you, not so that they simply work for the next pay check. Because that won't make them work hard, just enough to get the job done.
If this poster is a developer at Obsidian, it shows they have very poor leadership abilities as a whole, along with bad motivational skills, both necessary for being a boss. Just because you have a vision doesn't make it a good one. This poster, if true, also shows what might be a growing rift between the upper eschalons and the lower workers. Stuff like this could have been boiling over at Obsidian for a while, who knows really.
Have they laid off people lately? Have many been leaving to work for other companies?

 

[crufty]

yeah thats true. i'll soften my position.

in a sane environment a skilled employee can navigate a lot of minefields. but in a small insane environment there is not much to do but walk.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Well, alot of this stuff right here points to a toxic work environment. Look what happened to EA with anonymous letters, and even more recently with Rockstar's team working on Red Dead Redemption, though personally I say they should have suffered, as the game was so long overdue.
The guy or chick that wrote this could seriously be frustrated or even burnt out. Hell, maybe this anonymous person will join Mitsoda. We don't know.
In this scenario though, all roads lead to bad. I know from personal experience that this is the beginning of what is becoming an explosive situation. These things never end well, and the only way to prematurely end it is for the offended parties to part ways. At this point, there's too much bottled up resentment for things to continue smoothly and in a normal fashion.
Things have to change in Obsidian, because their work will suffer (more so than it does now).

 

[Drakron]

Keep in mind that in game development things get shuffled a lot, you work on a project and then get thrown into another with people you know and people you dont know, repeat.

The same goes for the company itself, EA for example does their annual holiday layoffs, one day you are working for Ubisoft and a week for now for EA, repeat ... "veterans" are rare.

So you cannot hold a grudge or at least allow it to impact your work too much due to the very nature of the industry employment policies.

 

[Azarkon]

Obsidian is not owned or dictated by one person. If the other head honchos (Feargus, Avellone, etc.) thought Parker was a douche, they could've overrode him. If they didn't want to do it because they were worried about personal relations, business connections, etc., then well, that there is the problem isn't it?

So yeah, team failure. Running a company isn't just about great ideas, as Troika showed, and Obsidian is going down the same route, unfortunately.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Have they laid off people lately? Have many been leaving to work for other companies?

There were substantial layoffs when Aliens RPG was cancelled.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

. Running a company isn't just about great ideas, as Troika showed, and Obsidian is going down the same route, unfortunately.

I'm sorry, but what great ideas has Obsidian had? This is their first franchise that wasn't handed to them from Bioware, and at best it's good for what it is. What great new idea was presented in AP that just makes us all drop our jaws in amazement? What truly good game have they released beyond MotB (which was actually meh, but saved by a fantastic story)? Obsidian hasn't been dragged down by anybody, they're just a bad developer that excels in releasing half finished games that are "good for what they are". I hope the studio gets shut down so maybe the talented developers on staff will start indie RPGs that actually are new and exciting.

 

[crufty]

don't go throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Now what the hell does that mean? If a company is bad, makes poor business decisions, etc, then yes it deserves to fail and die. Don't just throw the fucker out with the bath water, suck his brains out with a vacuum.

Troika, I absolutely adored as a company. But they made a lot of bad decisions, game wise and especially business wise. It cost them in the end, and while I hated to see the company go, natural law does apply.

Same goes for Obsidian, which in my opinion has less talent, and overall less ideas that interest me. For christsakes, their first few games were shoe ins to keep them afloat. NWN? KOTOR? No way they could not survive on that. Brand names. Now we see what they're really made of. If they can weather the badness of AP to make something actually decent in their next title, then Ok.

Troika's biggest mistake was taking on the world without independent financing (loans from banks, etc). If they had sought independent financing, they certainly would not have been at the mercy of publishers like they were. Obsidian's biggest mistake seems so far seems to be just poor taste. And some lousy ideas (AP is the shining example so far). If they have the business skill to keep afloat, Ok. But so far, I'm just not impressed.

Also, I cannot recall if I ever read an employee currently employed by Troika gripe about the ineptitude of management like you saw at Obsidian. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Azarkon]

Troika went down after just three games, two of them licensed IPs. Total company running time was seven years.

Obsidian, in the same seven years, is on their seventh title:

KOTOR 2
NWN 2
NWN 2: MOTB (expansion)
NWN 2: SOZ (expansion)
AP
FALLOUT 3: NEW VEGAS (expansion)
DS 3

It's obvious the two companies have very different development philosophies. Obsidian follows Feargus's "slam dunk" approach, with fast development cycles and safe IPs, whereas Troika was ambitious enough to go for a new IP as their first game. There are plenty of doubts about Obsidian's approach, even today, and it's certainly given them a less than stellar reputation. But what about actual results?

Troika spent three years developing Arcanum and sold 234,000 units. This was their best selling game. Worse, ToEE, which took them six months to develop, sold better (128k units) than their last game, VTMB, which sold a measly 72k: http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/static/ ... oEqUsh.php

Obsidian spent a single year developing KOTOR 2, which sold 785,000 units on Xbox ALONE. That is to say, better than ALL THREE OF TROIKA'S GAMES COMBINED.

They went on to develop NWN 2, which sold well enough to warrant two expansions, the first of which sold well in at least Europe.

I think it's pretty fair to say that Obsidian's financial strategy is much better than Troika's. Whether it produces better games, by Codex standards, is a different issue, but until both Fallout 3: New Vegas and Dungeon Siege 3 crash and burn, it's hard to argue that Obsidian did the wrong thing going down the path that it did.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

[quote="Azarkon" Whether it produces better games, by Codex standards, is a different issue, but until both Fallout 3: New Vegas and Dungeon Siege 3 crash and burn, it's hard to argue that Obsidian did the wrong thing going down the path that it did.[/quote]

Bullshit it is. I'll argue it. Not one of the games you mentioned except for MotB can even sniff the feet of Troika's worst offering. They're probably more financially successful, that I won't argue with, but I'll sure as hell argue that the slam dunk approach is shit. Fuck Obsidian, I hope they die in a fire.

 

[Azarkon]

Sometimes it feels like the Codex consists mostly of unemployed kids living off of their parents' income. Seriously, as a company, your first priority is to stay afloat, financially. Troika did worse for their own cause by going bankrupt, because now every company that wants to do something similar is going to look at Troika and say, "that shit doesn't work."

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

It sounds like you excuse shitty game design because it's financially profitable, which is bullshit. It's that type of fucking attitude that has caused the colossal fucking decline in the game industry in general, and the rpg genre in particular. There hasn't been a good RPG released by a major studio in almost ten years. That's a fucking problem. Troika at least tried, although they failed. Obsidian is just sucking BioWare's leftovers and making bad games with good excuses.

 

[Azarkon]

Simply put, Obsidian adapted better to industry conditions than Troika did. If you think all modern games are shit, the root of the blame is not with Obsidian, it's with industry conditions. Why did the industry get to where it is today? Not because there was a collective will among developers to go in this direction, but because "commercial Darwinism" determined that this direction was what the masses wanted. It's one thing to argue that Troika's direction was legitimate and that Obsidian simply took the easy way out, but with Troika's failure so spectacularly laid out before you, there's nothing to even argue.

 

[Volourn]

"Bullshit it is. I'll argue it. Not one of the games you mentioned except for MotB can even sniff the feet of Troika's worst offering."

Fuckin' bullshit.

 

[Lesifoere]

Obsidian spent a single year developing KOTOR 2, which sold 785,000 units on Xbox ALONE. That is to say, better than ALL THREE OF TROIKA'S GAMES COMBINED.

Jesus. It sold so many copies?

I think it's pretty fair to say that Obsidian's financial strategy is much better than Troika's. Whether it produces better games, by Codex standards, is a different issue, but until both Fallout 3: New Vegas and Dungeon Siege 3 crash and burn, it's hard to argue that Obsidian did the wrong thing going down the path that it did.

Yeah okay, but setting aside the question of good games, I'm kind of surprised they're still going. By now they have a shit reputation of releasing unfinished, bug-ridden games: how are they still finding publishers and shit to fund their projects? How did they land New Vegas? Isn't Alpha Protolol, even as we speak, flopping horribly? I don't get it.