Shadowrun Is Shadowrun Returns a cRPG? Case study

[Grampy_Bone]

This is the "If I don't like it its not a real RPG" fallacy yet again.

If you limit the definition to only the small subset of games you enjoy, it becomes meaningless.

It's got combat, progression, and items; it's a (lousy) cRPG.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

This is the "If I don't like it its not a real RPG" fallacy yet again.

If you limit the definition to only the small subset of games you enjoy, it becomes meaningless.

As oppose to the "If I like it then it's a real RPG" fallacy yet again.

If you don't have some kind of tighter definition that relates more to the giants of the genre, the term RPG becomes not only meaningless but potentially fraudulent.

 

[Jacob]

cRPG is far more than that, it's an attitude, it's a philosophy, it's a way of life man.

Guys we have found the answer to the old age quetsion that haunts this place!

 

[Grampy_Bone]

As oppose to the "If I like it then it's a real RPG" fallacy yet again.

I didn't say I liked it. I agree with all your criticisms. But consider this:

NBA Jam and NBA 2k17 are both basketball games

Tecmo Bowl and Madden NFL 2017 are both football games

Kunio Kun no Nekketsu Soccer and FIFA 17 are both soccer games

and they're ALL "Sports" games. See how this works?

Genres are inclusive, not exclusive. If you want to drill down into subgenres like "casual RPG" "tactics RPG" "dungeon crawler RPG" go right ahead. But saying NBA Jam isn't a "real" basketball game because it lacks the detail and depth of another game is foolishness.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

As oppose to the "If I like it then it's a real RPG" fallacy yet again.

I didn't say I liked it. I agree with all your criticisms. But consider this:

NBA Jam and NBA 2k17 are both basketball games

Tecmo Bowl and Madden NFL 2017 are both football games

Kunio Kun no Nekketsu Soccer and FIFA 17 are both soccer games

and they're ALL "Sports" games. See how this works?

Genres are inclusive, not exclusive. If you want to drill down into subgenres like "casual RPG" "tactics RPG" "dungeon crawler RPG" go right ahead. But saying NBA Jam isn't a "real" basketball game because it lacks the detail and depth of another game is foolishness.

Apples and oranges. Sports games have grown up being lumped together as such. However, all fantasy games are not RPGs, the term RPG specifically relates to a mechanical system or systems, as that is how the genre grew up. You could argue "it doesn't have to be like that" for RPGs, but that's you fantasising about a potential future rather than talking about the reality of the past or the expectations of the here and now.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

inventory management should simply be weight restrictive and that's all. Turning it into a mini-game is pure assbergers.

Except size does matter.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Gameplay-wise, Shadowrun Returns and Dragonfall are barely distinguishable from tb squad-based tactics games like JA2 and X-Com, except for a slightly more detailed story and the PnP rpg setting.

Is the china one really that much more cRPGey? I have a hard time buying that.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Sure, abstract it off as weight and no one bats an eye.

If done well it does add something, RE4 for example.

 

[Mustawd]

Holy fuck, so many 2017 and 2018 join dates ITT.

Might have to go to the doctor and get a pap smear, cuz this shit is definitely giving me cancer.

 

[JarlFrank]

It's an RPG because you create a character with custom stats, skills, and appearance, and as you progress through the game you gain experience by solving quests, which you can then use to increase your character's stats.

How is this not an RPG?

 

[Smegmalicious]

Holy fuck, so many 2017 and 2018 join dates ITT.

Might have to go to the doctor and get a pap smear, cuz this shit is definitely giving me cancer.

Joined: Dec 6, 2017

 

[Drax]

Like Borderlands!

 

[Lagi]

my-first-tactical-spin-off-with-words™

this sentence is gold. tactical geim with words, is not an truu er-pi-gii
i even shit-post just to admire it.

 

[Big Wrangle]

It's an RPG because you create a character with custom stats, skills, and appearance, and as you progress through the game you gain experience by solving quests, which you can then use to increase your character's stats.

How is this not an RPG?

Only good RPGs are real RPGs, obviously.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

It's an RPG because you create a character with custom stats, skills, and appearance, and as you progress through the game you gain experience by solving quests, which you can then use to increase your character's stats.

How is this not an RPG?

Only good RPGs are real RPGs, obviously.

To be fair, I covered this in the OP. You're not addressing what it doesn't have, you're just addressing what it does have. If the only criteria is character creation + exp from quests to further extend character development, then it's no wonder every man-jack decides to call their game an RPG if they think they can squeeze more sales from it, from Assassin's Creed to... well...

Like Borderlands!

If someone is developing an RPG, and they establish character diversity and then level it tied to exp, then surely that's just the first step in making an RPG, not the final design. Take Diablo, for instance, a game considered to be RPG-lite with most everything stripped down to it's bare aRPG streamline, the game still has all the elements of an RPG aside from a p&p origin to its mechanics. It also has character creation with custom stats, skills and appearance which, as you progress through the game you gain experience by solving quests, which you can then use to increase your character's stats, but Diablo is not discussed in GRPG. Shadowrun, which has quantifiably less RPG mechanics and expectations than Diablo is somehow a GRPG game? Even though I managed to find some enjoyment from it, I still felt somewhat cheated and defrauded as a result...

 

[Infinitron]

This is the "If I don't like it its not a real RPG" fallacy yet again.

If you limit the definition to only the small subset of games you enjoy, it becomes meaningless.

It's got combat, progression, and items; it's a (lousy) cRPG.

In an old discussion I had with the late great Excidium which I can't find now, I once claimed that a certain game was "less of an RPG" than another game.

Excidium took great exception to that. There's no such thing as "less of an RPG", he said, only a bad RPG. At the time I thought he was overreacting, but there's a lot of wisdom in that.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

This is the "If I don't like it its not a real RPG" fallacy yet again.

If you limit the definition to only the small subset of games you enjoy, it becomes meaningless.

It's got combat, progression, and items; it's a (lousy) cRPG.

In an old discussion I had with the late great Excidium which I can't find now, I once claimed that a certain game was "less of an RPG" than another game.

Excidium took great exception to that. There's no such thing as "less of an RPG", he said, only a bad RPG. At the time I thought he was overreacting, but there's a lot of wisdom in that.

Or simple laziness, both of mind and keyboard fingers.

 

[eXalted]

I think we have to ask ourselves the main question here...

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I think pretty much everyone wanted more content and depth from Shadowrun than what we got. I recall keenly at the time when I complained about this fanboys would storm out of the woodwork screeching "IT WAS A KICKSTARTER GAME THEY DID THE BEST THEY COULD."

Hahahahaha I don't hear that excuse as much any more. In any case I never played the sequels, did they ever add any more real depth?

I will say I was surprised at the content of Battletech given HBS's history. Now just take the open mission design of that game and make a real Shadowrun title pretty please.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I think pretty much everyone wanted more content and depth from Shadowrun than what we got. I recall keenly at the time when I complained about this fanboys would storm out of the woodwork screeching "IT WAS A KICKSTARTER GAME THEY DID THE BEST THEY COULD."

It's about time-management combined with the skills of your team.

Serpents in the Staglands only had a handful of people, got a pittance from a Kickstarter & made a kinda non-complete RPG... but their RPG actually felt like and played like a cRPG, a fully fledged one with all the expected facets of a good cRPG. They seemed to know what they were doing and had the skills to implement an RPG system and it's gameplay. It felt lacking, but not in a mechanics or genre deficient way, just in a lack of actual content, similar to Baldur's Gate 1's many non-maps interspersed with higher content maps.

For Shadowrun Returns they appeared to have more money and greater artistic skills, but completely lacked any knowledge or skills at creating any sense RPG mechanics or gameplay. They appeared to have spent an awful lot of time and effort producing beautiful screensavers that have zero impact on the game. See that row of offices behind the glass wall? You can't go there. See that part of the city behind a fence? You can't go there. See all the detail on that advertising billboard? You can't interact with that.

I can't help feeling that Shadowrun Returns (Dead Man's Switch) devs are not really that much different to many people's example of a modern AAA RPG dev team, in that all they're giving us are pretty pictures, first and foremost, and everything after that is more of a tack-on.

 

[Friday.13]

The same is true for Bloodlines and why Bloodlines is considered a RPG despite using the Source engine.

FTFY.

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

The answer is obviously yes. Yes...it is a kind of role-playing game that one can play on his or her pc. What a fucking stupid question.

 

[J_C]

Hold your horses people! We still haven't decided on What is an RPG! How could we assess if SR is a cRPG or not without that?!

Joking aside, of course it is an cRPG you faggot!

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Joking aside, of course it is an cRPG you faggot!

Why?

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

IncendiaryDevice thinks I'm retarded for pointing out the obvious. Tell me IncendiaryDevice; what makes Shadowrun Returns not a kind of role-playing game that one plays on his or her PC? Or are you just a fucking retarded button masher?