Company News Is Troika Dead?

[Sol Invictus]

MCA is just quoting from hearsay ("It is my understanding blabla ...). Sure, it seems pretty clear that something is afoot (people sending resumes and so on), but since Chris doesn't work at Troika, he wouldn't necessarily know what exactly is going on there.

Until Troika releases an official statement, none of these so-called "facts" should be taken for granted.

Actually, he's not. It's pretty well known because it was also mentioned by a lot of people who worked at Troika or knew people who worked there on the SomethingAwful forums.

Besides, their offices are like really close to each other and they have dinner sometimes.

 

[Nicolai]

o yea it was 'orrible, mate.. 'ORRIBLE I SAY!

 

[Fez]

In regard to that moral issue of the proletariat getting fired for management's mistakes, I think that employees share some blame for their sad predicament. After all, if they did a better job overall: better design, less bugs, especially the ones that are in your face - the unskippable opening cutscene, for example, then Bloodlines could have sold much better, and Activision would have been begging Troika to make another one of those nifty RPG Shooters instead of cutting them loose.

Seems a bit unfair on the follk like the artists, who I doubt get much choice in the matter.

Any decent project manager I've known of doesn't blame his crew (note I know Tim hasn't, just responding to your post), it's the same as a bad workman blaming his tools. The blame lies squarely with the management. In fact I remember dojoteef saying something to that effect recently when he was quoting from his favourite book. They should have fixed those problems early on, any oversights in that department should have been spotted by the management.

 

[Subhuman]

Serves them right for not getting the damn Fallout license.

Yeah, I know. But I don't care.

 

[dojoteef]

In fact I remember dojoteef saying something to that effect recently when he was quoting from his favourite book. They should have fixed those problems early on, any oversights in that department should have been spotted by the management.

Actually I wasn't quoting from a book. The book I kept refering to was about game design. I was actually quoting from an article on Gamasutra. It is a game industry website with articles, postmortems, job listings, etc.

 

[taks]

zhuge, over at the CO8 forums (and atari's ToEE forum) is in "regular" contact with steve moret... steve is likely the "senior programmer" that is left and this is what he told zhuge...

Originally posted by zhuge
Steve Moret's reply:
Leonard says we are planning an announcement sometime in February. I don't think I can really comment on much else at this time, but I can say I'm still working here.

unfortunately, this type of response is typical when things go bad. not that there won't be a silver lining in the end, but it may definitely portend the end of any additional toee efforts. there was hope for another patch (pathfinding fix in particular) as well as content additions... the game had potential, but, unfortunately, those that would have brought that potential to light may not care anymore...

taks

 

[Fez]

News just in: Tim Cain has 'left to persue other options'. It seems that games were never his true passion.

I''m still finding out more, I'll update later.

 

[Volourn]

"News just in: Tim Cain has 'left to persue other options'. It seems that games were never his true passion.

I''m still finding out more, I'll update later."

Your bullshitting right? Even I'm not that gullible. :D

 

[Avin]

Tim Cain has 'left to persue other options'.

he'll marry feargus.

 

[Jinxed]

I think that the real losers in this whole situation are the customers who bought Bloodlines and the people who worked at Troika. The bosses definitely aren't losing much, but lots of people are out of a job because of the mismanagement by the higher ups and their inability to get any new contracts.

Well, all things considered, how would you feel, if the company you created, worked in, made many friends at through the years had to close down? Happy? Say what you want about Troika, but it is in my understanding that they tried to bring us something no other developer wanted, bits of pieces are of it are visible in every game they delivered, most of us liked Troika for that. If this is the case, what they tried to give us will never be given, thus actually ending a fucking chapter in CRPG development and I sadly believe this to be. What do we have to look forward to? Kotor 3? Dragon Age? Please. They were, the last bastion... At least they tried, and we all knew they did. Unfortunetly, this is apposed to other companies who don't give a flying fuck.

 

[taks]

At least they tried, and we all knew they did. Unfortunetly, this is apposed to other companies who don't give a flying fuck.

uh, i hate to tell you, but no company can truly claim to "give a flying fuck." the simple matter is that in spite of their desire to create good games that sold well they did not. furthermore, if you really, truly think these guys were in the business for your sake (or mine or any other potential fan), you are mistaken. any business is about money, period. apparently troika did not make enough money, therefore they may not survive.

those other companies that don't "give a flying fuck," btw, may be surviving because they were better at realizing what it takes to survive in a market as competitive as computer game design.

taks

 

[Sol Invictus]

Don't be so melodramatic, Jinxed. I didn't much like Arcanum and even though people lauded it as a great RPG I didn't think so because I personally couldn't stand the combat and the flawed the character system. TOEE had an excellent combat system and nice graphics, but like all of Troika's offerings, it was lacklustre in almost every other aspect, so in the end it was a very hollow experience. I've said what I needed to say on Bloodlines, so I won't reiterate my points.

People like Feargus Urquhart who brought organizational skills to the table, and Chris Taylor who brought his game design were just as pivotal to the creation of Fallout as any of Troika's founding three. While I can admit that I do feel some tinge of emotion for what's happening to Troika right now, I can't say that they didn't bring it on themselves.

Troika tried to deliver a solid RPG, at least with Arcanum, but they failed in the execution in a myriad of other ways. In spite of TOEE's combat system, I don't think they even tried to deliver any sort of decent role-playing. Bloodlines felt rushed, and a greater portion of the game consists of nothing more than mindless combat. The eventual resolution feels hollow, and your actions throughout the game have absolutely no effect on the ending, which is decided through the cab ride. This is worse than KOTOR, because in KOTOR, you were at least 'forced' into a certain path towards the very end of the game depending on the value of your lightside and darkside points. You couldn't flip flop, as it were, to change your decisions, and the relationship that you built up with your followers couldn't be changed if you crossed certain thresholds. For instance, my character never kissed Bastila, even though he loved her, because of what I said to her throughout the game, but I digress.

How can you say other companies 'dont give a flying fuck', when no company, not even Troika, can truly claim that? You make it sound as if Troika sacrificed itself in its attempts to deliver real role-playing experiences to its beloved fans, but failed because the market, for one reason or another, wasn't willing to accept the content of their games. The truth paints a different picture: their games are buggy, imbalanced and have poor support, so who wants to buy them? They are just a business like any other: their goal is profit. That's the plain and simple truth, Jinxed.

As of late, I certainly don't see how they tried to deliver any sort of classic role-playing experience by giving us a game that most RPers don't want to play: a first person shooter.

Truth be told, I'm looking forward to Dragon Age.

 

[Mr. Teatime]

All of Troika's offerings sold OK, I think. I'm guessing what they need (or needed as the case may be) was a Feargus, who could organise the business side of things.

 

[Sol Invictus]

They also needed Chris Avellone. He laid the concept out pretty well, designed the SPECIAL character system and so forth. I still don't know why Troika didn't go with a system similar to SPECIAL for Arcanum. It would have been perfect.

 

[taks]

i got the impression they did OK, too, but their games were all externally funded and apparently not royalty based. my guess is the only way to really make money in the industry is to either 1) hit the mother-lode with a game like BG that sells millions or 2) pay for it yourself. of course, option 1 is rare indeed, and option 2 is extremely hard for a small company to do...

taks

 

[Fez]

Here it is, the real deal, Tim Cain has left the game industry and has started a new career. A few quotes from those who have been secretly working with him on his new job:

"I have watched Tim weave a musical thread of love around each child. Someone with his talent is so rare. Not only did the children respond and participate in his music, they fell in love with him." - Director, ABC Preschool Academy, Marin County, CA

"We feel as strongly about Tim Cain's music as we did the first time we heard Raffi and introduced his music to Tucson. The first time we sold his music at our store, we were out of his tapes in two days." - Owner, Mrs. Tiggy-Winkle's Toys, Tucson, AZ

I guess he was moonlighting all this time while things were getting to him as everything went wrong with Bloodlines and now he feels he can leave his old job behind.





Here's his new albums:

It's a sad day for the gaming industry, but the plus side is he is having a pajama party at the Bug-a-Boo childrens' store, I can't wait. We might never see Fallout 3 but we may have FALLOUT: THE MUSICAL!

Read up on it all on his new personal website: www.timcain.com

P.S. This could be one reason why they missed out on so many bugs in Bloodlines, it was all Exitium's fault:



That must be why everyone is so hostile to him today. I guess that also explains why Bastila wouldn't kiss you Ex, not after she knew where those lips had been.

 

[Subhuman]

Dude, A Day in Tim's Garden is fucking awesome when you're high.

 

[Fez]

Dude, A Day in Tim's Garden is fucking awesome when you're high.

You know it baby! He just reaches into my soul. My favourite album is I'm a Duck. Such lyrical genius. When you're wasted you can just listen to it for hours.

A little somthing special from that classic A day in Tim's Garden album just for you Subhuman. Here.

 

[Ekodas]

i got the impression they did OK, too, but their games were all externally funded and apparently not royalty based. my guess is the only way to really make money in the industry is to either 1) hit the mother-lode with a game like BG that sells millions or 2) pay for it yourself. of course, option 1 is rare indeed, and option 2 is extremely hard for a small company to do...

taks

Another way to make money in the industry is also to develop games for several platforms. Making PC-only games nowadays is risky. Making PC-Only RPGames is very very risky.

If you want to make decent sales, developing for PC/XBox is the way to go (PS2 also, but Sony's approval can be hard to get ; and programing for the PS2 is complex). Of course, it means that you'll have to make some compromises design-wise (technical constraints -> level and game design decisions ; a pad imply a new way to think game controls, interface etc...)

But avoid RPGs. Instead, make games like "The return of Sauron" ; "Spiderman 2" ; "Hulk" ; "Tomb Raider 7" or whatever.

any business is about money, period.

There's some truth in that statement of course, but you have to understand that some companies out there are not doing games for money only. Specially in the game industry, you'll find out that a lot of independent studios are powered by a passion for games. People in these small companies don't pull 80+ hrs per week to make some fat bucks.
Imho, Troika is one among the few companies driven mostly by passion. Or they would have dropped RPGs 4-5 years ago to makes some XBox titles (action/adventure games).

 

[Quentin Payne]

They also needed Chris Avellone. He laid the concept out pretty well, designed the SPECIAL character system and so forth. I still don't know why Troika didn't go with a system similar to SPECIAL for Arcanum. It would have been perfect.

I believe you're a little off base here, Exitium. Avellone didn't do ANY work on FO 1, Tim Cain and Chris Taylor designed the whole of the Special system. Check your manual to see who were the original game designers...


Quentin

 

[Quentin Payne]

If the Troika were such fat cats collecting cash at their employees expense, why haven't we heard anything negative from former employees? How about it, former employees? Let's hear whether the Troika guys are incompetant dorks or good to work for...

And I agree, it seems Troika was driven more by passion than good business sense, hence the position they seem to be finding themselves in now.

I still want Arcanum 2!!!

 

[Jinxed]

How can you say other companies 'dont give a flying fuck', when no company, not even Troika, can truly claim that? You make it sound as if Troika sacrificed itself in its attempts to deliver real role-playing experiences to its beloved fans, but failed because the market, for one reason or another, wasn't willing to accept the content of their games. The truth paints a different picture: their games are buggy, imbalanced and have poor support, so who wants to buy them? They are just a business like any other: their goal is profit. That's the plain and simple truth, Jinxed.

I never said that they sacrificed themselves, you're just saying what you want to hear basically. I didn't mention a reason why they are in trouble in my post so I don't know why you are bringing it up as a response.

I don't think Troika made games with TROIKA fans in mind, no. People who enjoyed the massive roleplaying in Arcanum basically know what I'm talking about. You don't have to be a Troika fan to like that, it's a specific type of RPG that many could describe as "Putting the role back in RPG". Something you should be familiar with by work hazard.

Then we have ToEE, a game with combat so great, that most other RPG games should be sent out of the room, never to come back, because they're that ugly.

And Finally, you have Vampire, with NPC interaction making Morrowind look worse than a pac man game.

All of these games are extremes, not weighted out and it's quite obvious that it's a fuckup. However, there's no denying that they are gems in one way or another, a level in certain aspects that no other developer has achieved.


Don't accuse me of being melodramatic while you are standing on the other side of the line. While what I write may sound like that to some people, at least I don't come up with photoshop images portraying my feelings for them.

They also needed Chris Avellone. He laid the concept out pretty well, designed the SPECIAL character system and so forth. I still don't know why Troika didn't go with a system similar to SPECIAL for Arcanum. It would have been perfect.

No, it would'nt be so classic. It would have to be totally different. As it was, Arcanum had loads and loads of combat, not that it was a combat game, it was just fucking HUGE. If people were forced to use sole Turn Based in a game with such a giant gameworld, I think it would take ages to complete, a lot of people wouldn't have the endurence.

 

[Subhuman]

A little somthing special from that classic A day in Tim's Garden album just for you Subhuman. Here.

I'm so adding that to my iTunes.

 

[Petey_the_Skid]

Haven't posted in a while but this brings me out the woodwork. Arcanum was super fun, and huge. ToEE was a blast of a dungeon crawl. Haven't had a chance at Bloodlines yet but all my friends who have it think it's awesome. It's a sad day to see a company that puts out decent(perhaps not stellar, but definetly decent) rpgs going down the tubes. The only recent games I've played that come anywhere close to the enjoyment provided by Troika's games have been the Kotors(which also seem to get a less than deserved bashing here of late). I don't know why a lot of y'all are so happy to see troika go. Where are these games you're playing that makes Troika's so crappy? I must have missed them.

 

[xemous]

I rekon they should go the online route and ditch these filthy publishers. They have a fan base, just code and sell the product by shipping it and/or sell online.