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Jagged Alliance Jagged Alliance 2, Temple of Elemental Evil & Silent Storm Retrospectives

Which game has the best tactics?

  • Jagged Alliance 2

  • Silent Storm

  • Temple of Elemental Evil


Results are only viewable after voting.

Mud'

Scholar
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
225
Man JA2 is like the perfect game for me but i just cant play it and end up playing another modded campaign of UFO Defense.

I have installed JA2 like 12 times, each time is the same thing, take over the town, fuck around a bit in the strategy map, have a few skirmishes here and there and then BAM it hits me that if a merc dies, its gone forever and eventually because my brain is the size of a pea and play in ironman, the idea of me losing mercs from a list that can eventually be empty makes me stop playing the game.

In UFO Defense, no matter how FUBAR the mission went after losing the whole squad + skyranger, you can always somehow savage the situation by getting new people into the barracks, equip them with whatever the fuck you have of HE and do the equal of a terrorist attack on your own city to kill the aliens and those who survive will rank up.

In 7.62 Hard Life i soloed the game because i didn't want to recruit anyone that i could permanently lose from the merc list.

Just the thought of having a finite list of characters that could die and end up with a empty list makes me not want to play it, i wish you could play with one of the guerrilla soldiers you train instead of a merc.
 

The Red Knight

Erudite
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
485
the idea of me losing mercs from a list that can eventually be empty makes me stop playing the game.
Treat it as a roguelike, maybe. Recruit one merc or IMP, see how far you can get solo, once you die recruit another one. Treat deaths not as a permanent loss but as a sort of score ("you went through X mercs before you ran out of funds"). Mercs dying for the rest of that playthrough also doesn't matter because you're losing progress with them (when it's just you, you can't keep towns liberated, roads patrol-free and the equipment of your previous merc will likely be gone by the time you get to it). Different skills of mercs also mean different experiences (like not being able to pick or bash a lock to surprise the enemy from behind, or being bad with guns and needing to alter your usual sniping tactics).
Might require 1.13 and some config modifications to make things manageable or more interesting (like enabling infinite reinforcements or adjusting patrol sizes as soloing large groups of enemies would likely require lots of boring cheese).

Alternatively, take all fights you can into towns and shield yourself with the militia for increased survivability.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,653
He confirmed to me that he did in fact ask you what your top NWN modules were. What's he been saying, I see you haven't approved any from him since then. :M
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
ok, here it is as promised:

The Three Pillars of Power-Blogging

Since I'm commentating on gaming commentary itself, I was thinking of posting a critique on current gen gaming commentary as well; basically, the trends I have observed in recent years from forum-goers, bloggers, podcasters, newsposters, YouTubers and "journalists".
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Coming back to Silent Storm. Finding clues is often about doing certain missions in certain order under certain conditions in order to gain access to secret missions and better understanding of the story. Not as deep as overworld strategic mode, but still a very nice addition, especially considering that the rules of what you have to do are not arbitrary and gamey, but logical and derrived from story.

My point is, regardless, for completionists, it comes down to doing ! missions before ? missions. That way, we yield all clues and get to explore all sectors for +experience points and +itemization.

I wish modders would mod this game properly and fix its issues properly (they never did)... so much could be done to expand its questing, reactivity and tactics etc.

But this is such a niche game...

The way Random Clue Generator going, you could miss certain maps if you miss a clue in previous map, or not choosing that map. Or hell, not there at all. There's no guarantee that your 2 neck-to-neck Allies (or Axis) campaign could have 100% identical map progression.

You have 100% guarantee ONLY in campaign-critical maps. With anything slightly lesser than that you dont have that certainty.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
It's pretty hard to miss a clue because there are Oblivion-style map markers over them. However, as a veteran you probably play on harder difficulties.

Did you read my retrospective and weapons write-up? If you can ID any blatant errors, please let me know. (I won't change incorrect ammo allocation for certain firearms, as that's how it is in the game.)
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,758
It's pretty hard to miss a clue because there are Oblivion-style map markers over them. However, as a veteran you probably play on harder difficulties.

Did you read my retrospective and weapons write-up? If you can ID any blatant errors, please let me know. (I won't change incorrect ammo allocation for certain firearms, as that's how it is in the game.)
It’s easily been a decade since I played SS, but playing with all markers disabled and locations randomized was a very satisfying experience. I had a few completions under my belt before that, on normal difficulty, and I don’t expect that playing on impossible would be a good experience for a first timer.

Separately, I just found/read your write up. I quite agree with your points. Having never properly played JA2 (I know..) I’m sure you can see why I am so enamored with SS. In the context of my game playing life, it is a singularly unique and satisfying game.

One question- what issue do you take with the watchdog mod to “fix” skill progression? I know I used this for all my playthroughs except the first; it merely puts your characters on an even playing field with troops in the barracks. This has the non-negligeable benefit of making you use consumables more often (explosives, lock picks, etc) which only increases the fun.

I also recall using one of the no PK mods after I first beat the game and finding it quite improved the experience. I believe it was the mod that delayed or prevented the player from acquiring them, while also delaying their first introduction by the enemy and reducing their numbers per map. It was quite a good approach, and let the player continue to use and develop those soldier-based tactics that you rightfully pointed out were diminished by too-soon introduction of PKs.

If that PK mod doesn’t sound familiar from your searching, I may be able to find it in my old files.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Meh, pretty much all of your criticisms are fixed in the sequel

So? I didn't write a retrospective for the sequel, you lousy nimrod.

Separately, I just found/read your write up. I quite agree with your points. Having never properly played JA2 (I know..) I’m sure you can see why I am so enamored with SS. In the context of my game playing life, it is a singularly unique and satisfying game.

In the pipeline, I've got a five-section comparison between the combat systems of SS and JA2. Thus far, it covers squad size and composition, basic squad control, movement and positioning (five sub-sections), hit probability (six sub-sections) and stealth and scouting.

One question- what issue do you take with the watchdog mod to “fix” skill progression?

It's a hack rather than a patch. It doesn't fix the mechanics; it only updates progression in the skills at intervals (or allows for manual adjustment by player).

If that PK mod doesn’t sound familiar from your searching, I may be able to find it in my old files.

Sounds good. I'll look it up.
 

Puteo

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
171
So? I didn't write a retrospective for the sequel, you lousy nimrod.

Gee, and here I was hoping you would either put up or shut up with your tireless bloviating on the apparently obvious superiority of JA2 vs SS and yet you failed to cover the true refinement of the SS system, instead giving us the exact same criticisms even mainstream game reviewers were able to unearth nearly two decades ago.

In the pipeline, I've got a five-section comparison between the combat systems of SS and JA2. Thus far, it covers squad size and composition, basic squad control, movement and positioning (five sub-sections), hit probability (six sub-sections) and stealth and scouting.

Any plans for commenting on factors such as resultant gameplay eg: amount of time the game has you spend in idiotic scenarios like having 5 mercenaries lying prone on the ground in a field plunking at similarly prone guards with peashooters or User Experience and user interface design?
 

cretin

Magister
Douchebag!
Joined
Apr 20, 2019
Messages
1,347
SS is a good game. JA2 is a superior game. Thats all there is to it. SS is like a mobile game in comparison, significantly less depth, and is a much smaller game in every respect.

Maybe time to give JA2 another try. I remember enjoying the game when I bought it a while back but never played it again after being exposed to the Drassen counterattack.

EDIT: I remember using this guide to set up the game the first time around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za9ZxUor66o, but I think I will use this one instead: https://lilura1.blogspot.com/2017/04/Jagged-Alliance-2-Retrospective-Walkthrough-Part-I.html

Just get JA2 stracciatella. 1.13 is a fucking mess when run "out of the box".
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
SS is a good game. JA2 is a superior game. Thats all there is to it. SS is like a mobile game in comparison, significantly less depth, and is a much smaller game in every respect.

There is comparability in their tactics, which is what I'm limiting the write-up to.

***

Also, I have begun posting my Revised Retrospective on Baldur's Gate. It contains new sections, expanded sections and so on. It's best viewed in Magazine viewmode on a PC, though mobiles are supported through Classic viewmode.

Currently, 17 revised parts have been posted, but I've already got 10 others that will be posted soon (they're on the blog, just not revised). Overall, I want to make it a 50 part retrospective, with a word-count of around 500,000.
 

cretin

Magister
Douchebag!
Joined
Apr 20, 2019
Messages
1,347
I forgot about the bullshit JA2 chucks at you late game with the whole "rules for thee but not for me!" AI. Like AI being able to throw grenades about 2x the max range of a M79, or how a redshirt can catch 4 bullets in a turn, be on the edge of death, and on his turn, pull out a mortar or LAW and he will 99% of the time hit your mercs. Meanwhile, the game has long since established that anyone who gets shot on the previous round will have their accuracy in the shitter the next round.. but not for me and my rockets! the AI says.

To some degree, this type of shit is in every game and is some ways a necessary compensation for not too bright AI, but it never doesn't leave a bad taste in the mouth.
 

The Red Knight

Erudite
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
485
Lilura
Were unlabelled containers (like cash registers, vending machines and bottle racks) a thing in vanilla or is it something Wildfire maps added (or is it whoever ported those for 1.13 taking some artistic liberties with them)? I remember trying to CTRL+check some stuff when I originally started playing JA2 and assumed those don't exist, and only discovered them a few years ago.
C4ewQVV.png
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
8,816
Location
Italy
i wish i could take part in the survey, but i played ja2 only with 1.13 and wouldn't know the real value of vanilla, and anything with panzerthings deserves to die until dead. what were they thinking?
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274

This is another area in which JA2 shines: variety and density of placeables. There are not many isometric games with this kind of detail, along with destructibility, and a good pathfinding routine (so that we don't get stuck on them, as we do in most RPGs out there).
 

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