Jagged Alliance Jagged Alliance 2, Temple of Elemental Evil & Silent Storm Retrospectives

[Efe]

particular thing about great games is that they make trash games look worse but never diminish each other.

 

[Latro]

but it's too detailed for first-timers.

Dunno what you're talking about, Lilura's walk-through is full of helpful tips for the beginner (I looked at her JA2 walkthrough, it was very helpful) and isn't any more complicated than any beginner guide on Steam - but written much better.

 

[The Avatar]

What's amazing to me, is that Lilura pretends to be a monocled 90s tactical game connoisseur yet ignores that Xcom Apocalypse was better than any of the 3 as a tactical game, AND it was released prior to all 3. There are many features in Xcom Apocalypse that remain unsurpassed in gaming to this day, like its great faction system. Jagged alliance 2 was a good game but in my opinion 2nd to Apocalypse. Silent Storm is generally inferior to those 2, only graphics are more modern. And ToEE in general is trash, let's be honest, it had a nice DnD combat implementation but that implementation should have been used in an actual video game.

The difference is that ToEE and Jagged Alliance 2 are RPGs and XCom is not, so it should not be considered here.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Dunno what you're talking about, Lilura's walk-through is full of helpful tips for the beginner

Leaving "going for the first run blindly" thingy aside - her guide is too informative. It has not only "tips", but literal excerpts from the game dialogues and screenshots of various situations. What's the point of playing the game then?

 

[Latro]

literal excerpts from the game dialogues and screenshots of various situations. What's the point of playing the game then?

Good thing JA2 is a combat game, what difference does showing excerpts make?

 

[Lilura]

As clearly stated in its preamble, the walkthrough or written Let's Play is a warm-up to my multi-part retrospective. That's sort of why it's called a walkthrough, and not a retrospective. The walkthrough is being written for my own amusement but the underlying agenda is to farm keywords and SEO (+influence/+Google penetrance), thereby undermining the preestablished. The walkthrough will also allow me to self-cite as authoritative.

Since I've done this for ToEE, JA2 and several other games (most notably, Baldur's Gate), I have no doubt that I will succeed with Arcanum as well, since it's small-time compared to BG (as it pertains to popularity and competition).

 

[Lilura]

What's amazing to me, is that Lilura pretends to be a monocled 90s tactical game connoisseur

My treatment range is Renaissance-only. Thus, I don't cover the early or mid 90s. My agenda is to paint the Renaissance as the most monocled era, and not formally acknowledge the existence of preceding or subsequent eras, let alone their non-RPGs. If you want to read commentary on the games of those eras, feel free to go elsewhere or write your own. No one is stopping you.

I've already highlighted the virtues and flaws of the three great tactical RPGs in my treatment range, and that's enough. Now, I move onto Arcanum.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Good thing JA2 is a combat game, what difference does showing excerpts make?

Ask the same with Arcanum. Why spoil the fun?

 

[Lilura]

So you're crying about screencapped dialogue excerpts when YouTube Let's Plays record entire games.

Many gaming wikis quote text verbatim: all possible dialogue options and all possible outcomes with all stat-based reactivity, no matter how trivial. I don't.

Also, some 'Dex Let's Plays show dialogue excerpts.

"But Lilura shouldn't because my fifth alt's got a bee in its bonnet about Lilura (and I'm still a low-grade troll)".

 

[TemplarGR]

The difference is that ToEE and Jagged Alliance 2 are RPGs and XCom is not, so it should not be considered here.

Actually, of the 4 games mentioned (ToEE, JA2, SS, XcomApoc), ONLY ToEE is an RPG. The other games are strategy/tactics. All of them.

But if you decide to compare them, you should add Xcom Apocalypse which was better than all of them.

 

[TemplarGR]

My treatment range is Renaissance-only. Thus, I don't cover the early or mid 90s. My agenda is to paint the Renaissance as the most monocled era, and not formally acknowledge the existence of preceding or subsequent eras, let alone their non-RPGs. If you want to read commentary on the games of those eras, feel free to go elsewhere or write your own. No one is stopping you.

I've already highlighted the virtues and flaws of the three great tactical RPGs in my treatment range, and that's enough. Now, I move onto Arcanum.

Xcom Apocalypse is well inside your range, it came out in mid-1997, at the same time with the original Fallout. So you should play it and appreciate it. Hint: There are many tactics and gameplay mechanics in Xcom Apocalypse that are not apparent at first glance. Everything in the city (the overworld map) is destructible and you can actually tactically strike certain portions of it to hit your enemies. The various factions of the game have their own diplomacy with you and each other and depending on your actions things might change radically. Every faction has a function in society (from police to hospitals to transfer of goods to organized crime) and if you lose them diplomatically or to the aliens you will lose that function permanently. They may also raid your bases and assault your vehicles. The city is also organically connected, if the roads get destroyed your vehicles can't move, or your pedestrians. If a building gets assaulted by aircraft or tanks, and collapses, everyone inside it dies. So if let's say you let UFOs bombard your base and you have no fighter jets to kill them, your base is done. LOL. You can also do the same, bombard everyone and raze them to the ground, instead of spending the lives of your Xcom agents. This might lower your diplomacy with others though. And you always pay some compensation to the city for city damage.

And all these stuff and more, on the overworld map. I haven't began mentioning the tactical battles, but hey, they are original-Xcom on steroids, you know they are good.

Actually, Xcom Apocalypse was so incline for its time, that i am amazed 23 years later games have never improved upon its ideas.

 

[Beowulf]

The difference is that ToEE and Jagged Alliance 2 are RPGs and XCom is not, so it should not be considered here.

Actually, of the 4 games mentioned (ToEE, JA2, SS, XcomApoc), ONLY ToEE is an RPG. The other games are strategy/tactics. All of them.

But if you decide to compare them, you should add Xcom Apocalypse which was better than all of them.

To be honest I always viewed those kind of games (Jagged Alliance, X-com games, SS and their ilk) as tactical squad games, where tactics are on the front of the gameplay. Positioning, distributing equipment according to skills, focus on fighting and a general trend for "realistic" situation resolution matters a lot, while at the same time quests (missions, or however you call them), character interaction and development serve a secondary role to combat.

Only after I started lurking Codex I discovered I've been playing rpg's all along. But complex games that mix genres can be classified as any of them, depending on what part of the game the poster is putting focus.


Besides, Codex is on an eternal quest to answer the one final question - what is a RPG.

Spoiler

Since Horizon zero dawn became an RPG (for its deep systems, like floating damage numbers, I presume); and the only thing preventing Ass Creed games from joining the RPG hall of fame is the lack of a skill tree with XP unlocks, I think this point is moot. Good thing that someone posts quality content about interesting games

Don't post on Codex kids, that's how you find yourself slowly succumbing to madness and agreeing with a certified retard.

 

[Latro]

The difference is that ToEE and Jagged Alliance 2 are RPGs and XCom is not, so it should not be considered here.

Actually, of the 4 games mentioned (ToEE, JA2, SS, XcomApoc), ONLY ToEE is an RPG. The other games are strategy/tactics. All of them.

But if you decide to compare them, you should add Xcom Apocalypse which was better than all of them.

Besides, Codex is on an eternal quest to answer the one final question - what is a RPG.

I think this point is moot[/spoiler]

it's been answered a long time ago: RPG combat. horizon zero dawn is not considered an RPG; no stats, no RPG.

 

[Beowulf]

The difference is that ToEE and Jagged Alliance 2 are RPGs and XCom is not, so it should not be considered here.

Actually, of the 4 games mentioned (ToEE, JA2, SS, XcomApoc), ONLY ToEE is an RPG. The other games are strategy/tactics. All of them.

But if you decide to compare them, you should add Xcom Apocalypse which was better than all of them.

Besides, Codex is on an eternal quest to answer the one final question - what is a RPG.

I think this point is moot[/spoiler]

it's been answered a long time ago: RPG combat. horizon zero dawn is not considered an RPG; no stats, no RPG.

And yet I can read about it in the RPG subforum. It also has stats. Or do you mean that player character doesn't have any character stats, only HP and damage/block values?

Spoiler

 

[Latro]

And yet I can read about it in the RPG subforum.

mod's opinion doesn't matter. I think it's important to emphasize that the umbrella of RPG as a genre is held together by combat; and this combat is further held together by player with stats vs monsters with stats. stuff like choices & consequences, story, exploration, are not RPG-exclusive.

 

[Stavrophore]

Comparing ToEE to JA2 must be some kind of joke, when these games have nothing in common mechanics wise.

 

[Latro]

Comparing ToEE to JA2 must be some kind of joke, when these games have nothing in common mechanics wise.

Isometric RPGs with a heavy emphasis on combat during the same era. Difference in mechanics notwithstanding, they are in the same genre around the same era.

 

[sser]

Always thought the 'spec ops' veneer makes people forget that JA2 is a super RPG at heart. You can create your own party or take on pre-made characters, all characters interact with each other, every character has interactions for the world itself and the events in it, who you have in your party matters as some characters genuinely hate or like one another, you can find characters in the wild to hire, everybody learns/levels up by using skills, quests are open-ended as are their solutions, absolutely ridiculous amounts of content, Easter eggs everywhere, huge, open world that is constantly evolving and you are never abstracted from it, you're always present, you can interact with locals, go to small villages and build up their economies and teach locals how to fend for themselves, can run levels solo or with a party or with a loud party, enormous array of items to find and equip, fights range from small-scale engagements to huge pitched battles, and you have a primary antagonist to aim for.

 

[Stavrophore]

Comparing ToEE to JA2 must be some kind of joke, when these games have nothing in common mechanics wise.

Isometric RPGs with a heavy emphasis on combat during the same era. Difference in mechanics notwithstanding, they are in the same genre around the same era.

Differences:
JA2: bullets actually fly and can be stopped by physical objects, thus thats what determine the overall hit chance
ToEE: It's all down to dice roll
JA2: Only shooting and hit to chance as mechanics, coupled with simple injury system
ToEE: Lots od debuffs, buffs, spells, mechanics
JA2: Stats matter but overally they don't affect a character build that much and influence little in the world
ToEE: Completely different builds and classes

Sorry but it's like comparing XCOM to Darkest Dungeon, there are similiarities, but in the end there's nothing substantial/relatable to compare between two.

 

[Latro]

Comparing ToEE to JA2 must be some kind of joke, when these games have nothing in common mechanics wise.

Isometric RPGs with a heavy emphasis on combat during the same era. Difference in mechanics notwithstanding, they are in the same genre around the same era.

Differences:
JA2: bullets actually fly and can be stopped by physical objects, thus thats what determine the overall hit chance
ToEE: It's all down to dice roll
JA2: Only shooting and hit to chance as mechanics, coupled with simple injury system
ToEE: Lots od debuffs, buffs, spells, mechanics
JA2: Stats matter but overally they don't affect a character build that much and influence little in the world
ToEE: Completely different builds and classes

Sorry but it's like comparing XCOM to Darkest Dungeon, there are similiarities, but in the end there's nothing substantial/relatable to compare between two.

Nitpicking. Difference in mechanics doesn't change that they are both Isometric combat-focused RPGs from the same era.
XCOM is wildly different from DD.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Text

Your ad hominem attacks are pathetic. I'm no troll. No alt.
Youtube' let's plays are for complete retards. You compare your work to "that"?
Comparing walkthrough and let's play is funny. Purpose and audience are different.

It was a simple question at the start: who is the target audience of your writings? Experienced or first timers? I see that someone quite experienced in the matter wouldn't find much new at your blog, so thus I conclude that you write for the beginners. But it seems that answering "I write for the noobz!" isn't too prestigious. Therefore all the wordplay. I'm just perplexed, that with all that fuss about your blog, you are just a Xebeche.

With this I rest my case and stop to waste your precious time.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

It was a simple question at the start: who is the target audience of your writings? Experienced or first timers? I see that someone quite experienced in the matter wouldn't find much new at your blog, so thus I conclude that you write for the beginners.

I'm not so sure about that. I consider myself as an experienced BG, ToEE and JA2 player, yet I still read Lilura's blog entries about those games. Not to learn something new, but to read about those games from another experienced player point of view. Like some veterans' talk about old times... for old times sake I guess.

 

[Lilura]

I'm no troll. No alt.

That's what troll-alts say. And you're not arguing in good faith.

Youtube' let's plays are for complete retards.

Furnishing an example: If we were being sincere (not arguing in bad faith), we'd say that many LPs are posted for and by retards, but that some are entertaining, informative and insightful.

Another example is that you skipped over perceived TMI in wikis and written 'Dex LPs. Hint: If I want to turn my blog into an unmonetized, no-ads wiki of sorts, that's my choice. I may not beat a wiki written by an army of fans, but I'd still get a crapload more traffic.

It was a simple question at the start: who is the target audience of your writings? Experienced or first timers?

It depends on the write-up. Some are posted for beginners, others for veterans. Some are posted for my own amusement or citation purposes, others for cynical keyword grabs (though they still contain the relevant info the searcher is looking for).

I know many veterans read my blog because of how they end up on it: the keywords they type into Google are not what newbies/casuals would type in (they are specific and technical in nature).

 

[pidstuff]

I have not played Silent Storm yet, but between the two, Jagged Alliance is easier to pick up than ToEE.

 

[Lilura]

I have not played Silent Storm yet, but between the two, Jagged Alliance is easier to pick up than ToEE.

Silent Storm is easier to pick up than ToEE, too.

ToEE gives the biggest FUCK YOU to the newbies. I've seen Baldur's Gate veterans struggle to get into it.