JE Sawyer comments on dialogues and stuff

[Limorkil]

I find it amusing that the best way to keep people focused on the narrative also just happens to be the one that requires the least amount of work. I've heard the same argument from the same people several times before, on the subject of having multiple threads through a plot, multiple ways of completing a quest and having more than 40 hours gameplay.

I find that generic-named NPCs spoil the atmosphere of the game. It does not take much effort from the player to quickly establish which NPCs are important and which are not. Whether in a village or a sprawling city you will usually find that the people you need to talk to are the people in charge, merchants or craftsmen. People wandering the street may have a little background information or directions, and its not hard to figure out that an NPC has little more to offer than that.

I don't think that all NPCs have to have an impressive background or anything. In fact, having every NPC have the ability to talk about many subjects gets damn annoying, like in Morrowind. But I would prefer that all NPCs start out on an equal footing, i.e. they all have names and occupations and none of them have glowing exclamation marks over their heads. I recognize that some people like the "different colored circle" tactic, or the "glowing question mark of quest giving" idea, but please make it an option so that those of us who think it spoils the atmos can switch it off.

 

[Taoreich]

If immersion is the concern, I don't understand the logic of having names automatically inserted on contact, unless the game gives you the option of replacing the generic titles yourself. For instance, if you walk up to someone on the street, try to initiate a conversation, and get the response, "Fuck-Off;" I don't want future floating text displaying the name that somehow I was able to divine from the ether. I may, however, want the ability to manipulate the floating text so that it says "fucker" or some other moniker that I recognizewhen I see him again. Even if I do engage him in some plot revealing conversation, if I don't ask him his name, or they don't volunteer it, it shouldn't be captured.

Point being that the only names that should exist are those of people who are willing to give them to you. Unless perhaps they are in an occupation with name tags.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Even if I do engage him in some plot revealing conversation, if I don't ask him his name, or they don't volunteer it, it shouldn't be captured.

I never said anything about conversations with them being so in depth you could ask them their name. They are generic after all. It's not about ASKING them their name. It's about roleplay immersion and you imagining you had a conversation with this person in which you learned their name. Part of immersion is the individuals imagination and I see nothing wrong with doing something like this. I roleplay in just about every game I play, even FPS's, because it adds to the fun for me. And it's even greater when the game allows for that level of immersion I seek in it.

Alas, as I said, this is something that most likely won't happen soon, if at all. But, if it does, I think the only people who would bitch about it are the people who just want something to bitch about period. Not like it's going to kill you if you walk up to a generic townsperson and walk away with a name. OMG TEH HORRUR!!!11!!1

 

[Limorkil]

Going back to the original thread in the Obsidian forums, it's interesting to read the opinion that J.E.Sawyer has about Chris Crawford ( on the fourth page )

Yes, even though I had no idea who Chris Crawford is/was and I've never heard of any of the games he did. And even though J.E.Sawyer might be right in his opinion, he sounds like a bitchy oversensitive 'artiste' whiner.

In fact, that whole thread is like that. Despite going off his rocker, the original poster had a good question. He got some half decent answers too, but I really feel like people were just dismissing the idea out of hand and not applying any creative thought to it (why are developers so closed minded like that - seems like you would want to opposite). For example: yes, typing in responses is SOO 1980s but why couldn't you implement a system where you highlight a word or phrase in something an NPC said and then add a standard lead-in to it, like "Tell me about ..." or "Who knows more about ..." etc. I'm not implying that there are no issues with this idea, it just seems like people - J.E.Sawyer included - are too willing to dismiss it out of hand. Why don't they just say what they mean: "Sounds like too much work to me."

 

[Avin]

je is a sissy. but he is nice, because he has the balls to post what he thinks almost all the time.

 

[EEVIAC]

I'm not implying that there are no issues with this idea, it just seems like people - J.E.Sawyer included - are too willing to dismiss it out of hand. Why don't they just say what they mean: "Sounds like too much work to me."

Conversely, maybe he just thinks its a shit concept - as do I for that matter. I refute the idea that being able to have awkward, sometimes nonsensical, yet complex and interactive conversations provides more immersion. The whole idea smacks of an appeal for even more worthless tedium.

Besides that, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the dialogue systems that have been in place since Fallout. Regardless of the quality of the writing BG, Div Div, KOTOR, Arcanum - all these games that have used dialogue trees have communicated information through dialogue well. Writing good dialogue with lots of skill checks is a bloody difficult job in itself, something that doesn't occur often enough. I hardly think that dialogue will improve by using even more complex systems, when games often fail to meet the old standards.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

It's about roleplay immersion and you imagining you had a conversation with this person in which you learned their name.

You did. He told you to fuck off and mind your own business. You walk away with a sad face - the Generic Townsperson's name remains a mystery to you.

Happy now? Or are you going to bitch about designers not catering to your "immersion through inane details" fetish fantasy?

 

[taks]

For example: yes, typing in responses is SOO 1980s but why couldn't you implement a system where you highlight a word or phrase in something an NPC said and then add a standard lead-in to it, like "Tell me about ..." or "Who knows more about ..." etc. I'm not implying that there are no issues with this idea, it just seems like people - J.E.Sawyer included - are too willing to dismiss it out of hand. Why don't they just say what they mean: "Sounds like too much work to me."

uh, that's been done... it's called morrowind. to say that the dialog system in morrowind sucks is, well, kind. JE isn't too willing to dismiss such things, it's just that he's had this very conversation a thousand times. and, accordingly, most "clever" ideas that the peanut gallery comes up with really aren't all that nor do they work as intended once implemented... it's old hat. very old hat.

taks

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Happy now? Or are you going to bitch about designers not catering to your "immersion through inane details" fetish fantasy?

I hardly think I'm bitching, and I am certainly not trolling. Just expressing my opinions on the matter. No fetishes involved. Happy now?

 

[EEVIAC]

Wizardry 8 also had "keyword" dialogues. I imagine a great deal of the backstory was lost to me just because I couldn't be fucked asking every mook and goon their opinion about Vi, the Dark Savant, The Ascension, or whatever. Its a muddled, inelegant system.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

Nice comeback, fag.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Wizardry 8 also had "keyword" dialogues. I imagine a great deal of the backstory was lost to me just because I couldn't be fucked asking every mook and goon their opinion about Vi, the Dark Savant, The Ascension, or whatever. Its a muddled, inelegant system.

Actually, you probably didn't miss out on alot considering that most people gave you the same answers for all that stuffl. Just like in Daggerfall when you asked some townsperson about a specific guild, you would usually get something like "They're cool" or "They suck" or "I have no clue" unless your streetwise was high enough and then they'd give you some info on the guild if the dice rolled in your favor, but it was almost always the same info no matter who you asked. And that's how it is with the Wiz games. I never really bothered with the keywords unless it was something specific to what I was doing at the time.

Did Wiz 8 allow you to type words in? I know the earlier ones did, but can't recall if 8 let you.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Yes, Wizardry 8 allowed it. You should ask about the Backstreet Boys and Spice Girls to the Umpani Bard at their base, along with calling Lt. Sparkle a bitch. Good stuff.

Additionally, you could click on any word you were told in dialogue and it'd be added to the word list you could ask about.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Additionally, you could click on any word you were told in dialogue and it'd be added to the word list you could ask about.

Yeah, I do remember that being a feature. I'll be sure to try those other things out. Gotta find my copy of Wiz 8 though. Been missing for some time now and not sure where it went.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nice comeback, fag.

It's a friendly discussion, moron, not some comebacks competition. You posted something stupid, the gentleman in question has replied politely stating that he expressed his opinion. What seems to be your problem?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Additionally, you could click on any word you were told in dialogue and it'd be added to the word list you could ask about.

Actually, small correction - when you clicked on any word in the text, it wasn't added to the list, it was placed in the prompt. Sorry about that. You had a plus, minus and "ask about" button to add, subtract or ask about (duh) words from the list.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I really don't care much about random citizens having individual identities and mundane lives. They don't really add immersion to most games unless they're done absolutely well and offer important bits of dialogue or even minor quests for you to do, as they are in Morrowind. Everyone in that game seemed to have some purpose even if they were minor ones related to a minor quest. Though the game felt pretty pointless overall, it certainly wasn't because of the named mundane NPCs.

But in fact, I prefer a game with mundane characters detailed as such (Average Farmer or Citizen) in order to differentiate characters with actual roles and personality. Anachronox had a lot of fun with this, through an NPC down in the train station who was on a soap box complaining about how his life was meaningless, and that the only purpose he and most of the people around him served was as filler content in somebody else's storyline. He reminded me of the crazy guy who discovered the truth about Dark City. Anachronox couldn't have possibly had him as such an interesting character (even if it was a minor role) if they picked the route The Black Hound took.

All in all, I don't believe it detracts from the brand of immersion that the game offers. I believe that each game offers a different brand of immersion and the type of immersion that games like Baldur's Gate and Fallout offer are that of a more focused storyline with interesting characters that you'll want to get to know and remember as interesting characters. It's the same way with books. How interesting would a book like China Mieville's The Scar be if it wasn't for memorable characters like Tanner Sack, Bellis Coldwine and The Lovers? How memorable would Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere be without enigmatic personalities like Wednesday? Terry Pratchett with Sam Vimes, Vetinari, Rincewind, et al?

I believe games need focus, and more importantly, I know what attracts me to games are the characters that play actual roles in the story. Giving every character in town a name simply detracts from their importance, and I don't like that. Nobody could be expected to remember all the characters in any book or game if the developer gave names and personalities to every single one of the townspeople you encountered.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's the same way with books. How interesting would a book like China Mieville's The Scar be if it wasn't for memorable characters like Tanner Sack, Bellis Coldwine and The Lovers? How memorable would Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere be without enigmatic personalities like Wednesday? Terry Pratchett with Sam Vimes, Vetinari, Rincewind, et al?

Using your example, I don't think that these books would have been as good if they had a handful of named characters and hundreds of "citizens". Just because there were other named characters there, didn't stop you from elevating Tanner and Uther to a different level. China didn't treat his readers as idiots who are unable to identify key characters, and his books stand out. I don't see why game developer shouldn't do that.

 

[Sol Invictus]

There are actually little to no references made to the generic citizens. None of them have any names. I do not recall any of the 'other people' in Bellis Coldwine's library where she worked at having names. Heck, the Translator in the underwater city didn't have a name, either. She just called him the Translator, and she said in her mind that there was no doubt he too regarded her as she did him, with no further inflections on the subject.

There were few minor characters, of course, like a handful of the passengers she was on the original ship with, and the Curhouse council members, all of whom were named but without much description at all.

What China did in The Scar was no different than what Bioware did in KOTOR by giving names to a minor characters like all the Pazaak players, or Fallout with characters like Iguana Bob. Much like Sister Meriope in The Scar, he didn't have too much to say about anything, either. They were just characters with minor roles. It wasn't as if any of the scabmettlers Uther talked to had names, nor the workmates that Tanner Sack worked with underwater. There was Bastard John the dolphin, Hedrigall the veteran pirate, but there was nobody else. The rest were just 'workers' like the 'citizens' who populated the streets of Amn in Baldur's Gate 2.

If I had to count the number of characters mentioned in The Scar or any of Terry Pratchett's books, there would undoubtedly be less than 40.

Robert Jordan's first Wheel of Time book had a similar amount of characters, with good detailed given to the important ones and not much given to the minor characters, but as he kept writing, his books became more convoluted, with more and more useless characters coming into the mix, together with detailed descriptions of their motherfucking braids that nobody cared to read about. The end result was a convoluted mess of unimportant characters with the most important of all the characters, Rand Al'Thor, eventually having no personality whatsoever. Suffice to say, I hate Robert Jordan's books.

 

[Limorkil]

I'm not implying that there are no issues with this idea, it just seems like people - J.E.Sawyer included - are too willing to dismiss it out of hand. Why don't they just say what they mean: "Sounds like too much work to me."

Conversely, maybe he just thinks its a shit concept - as do I for that matter. I refute the idea that being able to have awkward, sometimes nonsensical, yet complex and interactive conversations provides more immersion. The whole idea smacks of an appeal for even more worthless tedium.

Besides that, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the dialogue systems that have been in place since Fallout. Regardless of the quality of the writing BG, Div Div, KOTOR, Arcanum - all these games that have used dialogue trees have communicated information through dialogue well.

Yes it really is a bit stupid to consider doing anything other than a minor tweak on something that has been done successfully before. Stop talking about the earth orbiting the sun because we have all these perfectly good astrological charts based on the sun revolving around the earth.

For example: yes, typing in responses is SOO 1980s but why couldn't you implement a system where you highlight a word or phrase in something an NPC said and then add a standard lead-in to it, like "Tell me about ..." or "Who knows more about ..." etc. I'm not implying that there are no issues with this idea, it just seems like people - J.E.Sawyer included - are too willing to dismiss it out of hand. Why don't they just say what they mean: "Sounds like too much work to me."

uh, that's been done... it's called morrowind. to say that the dialog system in morrowind sucks is, well, kind. JE isn't too willing to dismiss such things, it's just that he's had this very conversation a thousand times. and, accordingly, most "clever" ideas that the peanut gallery comes up with really aren't all that nor do they work as intended once implemented... it's old hat. very old hat.

taks

Its the old "Here is an example of what you are talking about done really badly to prove that it can never, ever, under any circumstances work well." argument. If I had a nickel etc.

For a start, Morrowind is NOT an example of what I was on about. Morrowind gives you a list of topics that you can ask about. It chooses what you can ask, and even then it does not just present you with topics that will glean useful responses. But the worst part is that every NPC potentially gives the exact same response, regardless of their personality. You meet an ashlander who says "I speak not good your language" yet if you ask him for his opinion on the local town he will say the exact same thing, word for word, as the overeducated research paper writing high elf mage in the same room. Its bollocks. I agree its an example of how dialogue can be done badly, which is why I wasn't talking about doing anything similar.

I guess we can all stick with "dialogue trees are da bomb" until the market gets sick of them and someone comes up with something innovative that actually works well. God forbid we actually suggest doing anything different before that point.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

My Tetchy-Stuff-O-Meter is going off the charts.

 

[AlanC9]

I guess we can all stick with "dialogue trees are da bomb" until the market gets sick of them and someone comes up with something innovative that actually works well. God forbid we actually suggest doing anything different before that point.

Oh, you can suggest doing things differently. But if the suggestion sucks, expect to get shot down.

 

[EEVIAC]

Yes it really is a bit stupid to consider doing anything other than a minor tweak on something that has been done successfully before. Stop talking about the earth orbiting the sun because we have all these perfectly good astrological charts based on the sun revolving around the earth.

You might have a point if the idea of innovation was actually an improvement over the existing system.

Its the old "Here is an example of what you are talking about done really badly to prove that it can never, ever, under any circumstances work well." argument. If I had a nickel etc.

Two examples actually. So explain to me how this system would work and why it would be an improvement over regular dialogue trees. From what I can see, the only benefit a keyword system has over a dialogue tree is reducing the number of player character lines by converting all character dialogue to generic "ask about" "tell me about," which is less work for writers/developers. Problem with that is that you take all the personality out of the interactions, likely turning NPC's into quest/information machines by relegating the flow of information in just one direction, cripple your chance of making viable skill checks within dialogues, waste the players time with an artificial distraction that is neither fun, nor immersive... That doesn't sound like innovation to me.

 

[Ap_Jolly]

It's a friendly discussion, moron, not some comebacks competition. You posted something stupid, the gentleman in question has replied politely stating that he expressed his opinion. What seems to be your problem?

Mind your own business, bitch.

 

[crufty]

I didn't think Ultima VII style dialogue was bad. I think almost everyone had a name and a portrait.