Editorial Jeff Vogel's rants at RPG Vault

[Limorkil]

I got into fantasy roleplaying though the Steve Jackson / Ian Livingstone fantasy books and did not come across D&D until much later. The big difference is that there is no character progression other than finding better equipment. Our PnP RPG characters had a character sheet and a few stats, but the stats rarely changed. Magic items were so rare that finding one was a major event. I remember we played one campaign for months and I think the players found 2 magic items.

We never missed character progression and "leveling" because we had no direct experience of it. When we finally did get into "Store bought" RPGs we found D&D to be laughable. I remember we would joke about things like this: "So if I can find and kill 100 barn owls I will reach level 3?" and "Yesterday an arrow would kill me, but today it will not. Did I grow twice the size overnight?" and "If I equip slow moving zombies in heavy armor they become almost impossible to hit, somehow".

We found we preferred RuneQuest and Warhammer FR over D&D, simply because the character progression seemed more natural. You started out kind of normal, and you got better at things over time, but overall you never really got that much harder to kill. Even then, we made up our own rules because we did not see the need for all the progression stuff.

I do not think a CRPG needs massive leveling/progression - the whole weakling to god thing. I just think it has become the norm and people expect it, but all it takes is a quality game designer to think outside the box to show that it is not essential.

 

[Gwendo]

I think the point is not having the character advance, but the way it's done: boring and time-consuming tasks. There are ways and ways to give the player the ilusion of getting stronger and better, without making him suffer a tedious long time.

 

[taxacaria]

I think the point is not having the character advance, but the way it's done: boring and time-consuming tasks. There are ways and ways to give the player the ilusion of getting stronger and better, without making him suffer a tedious long time.

I have time. I don't complain on time consuming tasks , if they aren't boring ones.
The fast advancement isn't the best advancement automatically.

 

[dagorkan]

We found we preferred RuneQuest and Warhammer FR over D&D, simply because the character progression seemed more natural. You started out kind of normal, and you got better at things over time, but overall you never really got that much harder to kill. Even then, we made up our own rules because we did not see the need for all the progression stuff.

I do not think a CRPG needs massive leveling/progression - the whole weakling to god thing. I just think it has become the norm and people expect it, but all it takes is a quality game designer to think outside the box to show that it is not essential.

Right. I think what we need is to get all RPG players and all game designers together in a room and brainwash them - and at the same time find and destroy every published copy of D&D in the world. Difficult task but I think it would be worth while. The effect D&D has had over gaming culture is satanic...

 

[Naked Ninja]

Um, the idea of ramping difficulty is one that has been quite well tested in many facets of real life. You don't start out in a company and they just make you upper management, unless you have plenty of experience. Likewise, you don't get to be star quarterback or whatever it is in american football if you've only been to one practice. The concept of ramping difficulty as the player progressively faces greater and greater challenges is not "half baked", its modelled on reality.

 

[mister lamat]

The main reason I use thiefy classes/skills as the example is because thieves are the most obvious on who isn't getting the skill power love in CRPGs. Thief just seems to mean massive damage sneak attack and little more in just about every CRPG these days.

you're preaching to the choir. you missed a couple though, like lockpicking for ubah loot sidegrades re: vendor trash that'll be pawned at the first trip back to town and hitting a button in the middle of an open field causing one to disappear from sight completely.

we do get three to five extra quests before declared 'master of all thieves' though. that's hot.

When I played D&D back in the late 1980s, thief characters typically stayed away from direct combat and mostly hid out during massive dungeon combat. Thieves would sneak around and use bows or flaming oil as weapons. You know, scale a wall to a vantage point, light up some oil, and start dropping it on what the party was fighting.

never played d&d, just cyberpunk but the concept isn't lost. stake out the mark, get his routines and find the best place to ambush... not turn on the stealthsuit and 'zomg! mono-edge katana to the face bitch!'

looking at all these wasted resources like lighting and shadows that choke up the average video card not being used... meh, just wish they'd do away with the stats and use those entirely. at least it'd be something different than the rehash.

 

[Azael]

Um, the idea of ramping difficulty is one that has been quite well tested in many facets of real life. You don't start out in a company and they just make you upper management, unless you have plenty of experience. Likewise, you don't get to be star quarterback or whatever it is in american football if you've only been to one practice. The concept of ramping difficulty as the player progressively faces greater and greater challenges is not "half baked", its modelled on reality.

Progression and ramping difficulty are not the problem, it's the way they are handled. Going through the motion of a tard that can't throw the ball in a straight line to Peyton Fucking Manning in, relatively speaking, no time at all, through often repetive and boring actions.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Boring and repetitive, sure, I want games with more imaginative quests etc.

But the increasing quickly in relatively no time at all aspect doesn't bother me one bit. The laws of time are bent to make the game fun for the player. Just like in strategy games it takes very little time to build structures etc. Because it would be boring to wait 8 game months for your little barracks or whatever to be done. I'll accept bending the realism a bit to give me a more enjoyable experience.

Quite frankly, I've done my years in University learning my trade, I don't want a game that simulates the sheer amount of time and practice it takes. But, conversely I enjoy progressing and developing my character. So, that means I accept the trade off that lets me go from Noob to learned in a short span of time. Whatever.

 

[St. Toxic]

There's no reason not to allow the player to create a high level character from scratch, if there are set-backs to such a decision.

A) Define Age as a limit to gametime, and starting Level as an age variable, Ex. ( If LV 1 = 18-20)( LV 5 = minimum 35- [Race var. not included]) asf. Rather unlikely that someone will, however, considering the "No Time Limit" policy of current "rpg's".

B) Overall combat will need a certain reconfiguration. Not scaling of course, but a bigger weapon and equipment reliance would likely sort it out. Being shot, stabbed, hit over the head with a hammer, will always hurt, however high/low level you are. ( Which I think is a pretty good way to go, so long as %success rate is defined by stats )

C) Lastly, and this would be a must: variable %penalty to gained EXP ( if any ).

D) Optionally, a level cap can be added, removing 1 LV for every extra LV chosen from start.

These options ( as they are optional ) should have little negative market impact. They were, however, brought forth from a cRPG perspective, and are likely not as applicable on anything else.

 

[Txiasaeia]

Um, the idea of ramping difficulty is one that has been quite well tested in many facets of real life.

As intriguing as "Company Simulator 2007" would be, in which you spend twenty years real-time before you're running a company, it doesn't necessarily mean that anything modeled on reality is a good thing.

 

[suibhne]

The problem isn't just the activities required to progress; it's also how you progress. How does your progress make logical sense within the gameworld? I always liked Gothic's "trainer" system (tho G3 is mostly a letdown in that department, since all but elite skills are nearly ubiquitous and there are no caps on trainer ability) - sure, it's artifical, but it still makes a lot more sense than "Kill 20 barn owls, increase your lockpicking skillz".

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

you're preaching to the choir. you missed a couple though, like lockpicking for ubah loot sidegrades re: vendor trash that'll be pawned at the first trip back to town and hitting a button in the middle of an open field causing one to disappear from sight completely.

Well, the problem with lockpicking is that lockpicking is a damned find thief skill, but it's definitely one that's taken the buttend of level design. Lockpicking to get around a guard, YES! Lockpicking to get some extra treasure that other classes might not get as the exclusive use, WTF? What gets worse is that stuff you find is nearly always thief related which makes little sense.

Sneaking in the middle of a field should be allowed, but with a huge penalty. One thing I always liked about the design of troika games was you could try to sneak anywhere, but you had to be damned good to sneak in the open. If you were near a wall, or in darkness, etc., you could sneak easier.