John Carmack officially leaves id Software

[Haba]

Case in point.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Hey, I thought the best shooter in recent years was Serious Sam and its expansions.

 

[DefJam101]

Petersen didn't randomly join id - Romero brought him along, and their designs synergized beautifully together (and Petersen left for the same reason - unhappy with the direction Carmack took with Quake). Same with the music - with Romero there you have Bobby Prince and fucking Nine Inch Nails, with Carmack you have.... who again?

While I agree with you generally are you seriously suggesting that NIN's completely inappropriate* and boring Quake 1 soundtrack is better than Quake 2's? Quake 2's soundtrack is one of the best ever and is by far the best thing about the game.

* Props to Reznor for Q1's sound design, though, which was excellent.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

And this is a bad thing?

Is this abija guy trolling?

That depends, did you actually pay attention during shooters instead of feeling awesome? Ever asked yourself why the AI has obvious patterns, or why they do evasive actions (regrouping, cover fire, shouting a lot, poking a bit then waiting)? Have you experimented with changing AI behavior when modding was possible or at least take a look at how aggressive mods were done and how gameplay changed? Have you thought about what's different in your gameplay (and why) when AI difficulty changes?

As for tactics, cautious play, a simple example: imagine you don't have area of effect weapons and all enemies in the room/arena group up and then attack at same time. "Tactics" your way around that... People would get frustrated and call bullshit design, but that's how proper AI would behave, that's how human enemies would handle advantage in online play, rush down and overwhelm.

i remember my first fight in stalker.
outnumbered, outgunned, i needed perfect aim and a bit of luck but i kept dying repeteadly because enemies always surrounded me and approached from the only angle i wasn't covering.
damn, THAT was fun!

 

[DraQ]

I think what he's trying to say is that it would be the easiest thing ever to get an AI to hit you in the head the moment it sees you 100% (this is what aimbots do, for instance - and people complained about getting headshotted across half the map in Crysis on the harder difficulties)

You've got it backwards, though.

Making AI limited as anything it stands in for should be is pretty much the only justified sort of limitation, and nerfing AI's accuracy and reflexes to human level is actually easy (good but imperfect situational awareness is actually harder).
It's all the more reason to *not* nerf the tactical/behavioral logic.

But that it is much harder to balance AI so that player has a chance and can use various ways to beat a scenario and maybe gets a "how cool is this, my character is really powerful!" feeling out of it.

I prefer the "how cool is this, I'm fucking awesome" feeling I get by actually being awesome.

Other way lays madness and asscreed.

I think what he is trying to say (again) is that a lot of games are meant to be played with controllers by a bunch of popamolers

If they are playing on PC, they already have KB&M, so any inefficiency introduced by fagpad is self inflicted.
Introducing several second delay because some moron feels entitled to playing with a pad stuck between their buttocks is retarded.
If they're playing on a console, then the game can be castrated and turned into easymode by the way of porting.

Don't shoot the messenger, he's kind of right that games are often designed that way nowadays.

"Are" and "should" should never be conflated (but often are).

i remember my first fight in stalker.
outnumbered, outgunned, i needed perfect aim and a bit of luck but i kept dying repeteadly because enemies always surrounded me and approached from the only angle i wasn't covering.
damn, THAT was fun!

I replayed my first fight in STALKER.
outnumbered, outgunned, I snuck to the rear and quietly clambered onto the partly collapsed roof, then started taking precise measure shots at unsuspecting bandits, constantly changing my position and hiding behind stuff popping out and taking lives when and where least expected.
damn, THAT was fun!

 

[abija]

What bullshit is this?

You shouldn't rebalance games for different control interfaces. Sure you should try to use every possible control method optimally but if some control method is clearly inferior there is no point balancing for it, unless specifically when porting, for platform's default controller.

They don't balance it for different platforms that was the whole point. You get on PC AI designed for the slower actions of someone playing with a controller. They don't even take the time to adjust for that so expecting a special AI mode for hardcore players is wishful thinking. Damage numbers, accuracy of enemies those are sometimes tweaked but are not enough.

If you want to pit player against otherwise overwhelming odds, you must give or allow player some sort of in-universe advantage enabling the possibility of their victory and survival - be it HEV suit, cybernetic implants, Thu'um or just enough wiggle room to use guerilla tactics effectively, not inexplicable enemy derp.

AI can and should have weaknesses, but they should be weaknesses corresponding to the weaknesses of stuff it stands in for (humans or otherwise) - limited awareness, accuracy and reflexes, and so on.
If anything, player will always have the PC psychopathy on their side (the fact that PC generally is immune to in-universe fear and has no qualms against killing people).

If the player is so strong that it wins a properly engaged fight by the AI, you'll get complaints of game being too easy. This is the whole point, the player needs to feel he is fighting against odds and winning, not strolling around as robocop vs enemies with basic peashooters.
The commandos in HL are a perfect example. They didn't have a proper AI set to kill, not even close. Those were just scripted to make them look awesome and player reception was great. And you could abuse them to hell and back, nobody gave a crap.
As for your weaknesses argument, trained commandos should employ tactics that account for human traits. They would engage only in superiority and employ attrition tactics otherwise. Do you think that would make a fun game, to have AI pinning you down and refusing to engage while they wait for reinforcements? How fun would HL have been if those cool explosives failed 99% of the time like it should happen vs decent AI?

AI in Rage is fine, does what it should do. It's the design and rushed balance changes that are an issue if you abuse them, having full hp after 3s in cover is not a flaw of the AI.

 

[DraQ]

They don't balance it for different platforms that was the whole point. You get on PC AI designed for the slower actions of someone playing with a controller.

And that's one of the reasons why we get mostly shit games.

They don't even take the time to adjust for that so expecting a special AI mode for hardcore players is wishful thinking. Damage numbers, accuracy of enemies those are sometimes tweaked but are not enough.

Accuracy, aiming speed and reaction times can be easily adjusted if you're smart enough to load them (or just multipliers) from a configuration file instead of burrying magic numbers all over your code.

There is no excuse not to.

Wielding a controller instead of mouse doesn't really affect other stuff like tactics (though I'm pretty sure there would be a strong correlation there).

If the player is so strong that it wins a properly engaged fight by the AI, you'll get complaints of game being too easy.

You're assuming that properly engaged player will be unable to use any tactics, just stand there and clickclickclick.

You wouldn't make a game where combat would consist of 20 enemies bumrushing player in a square, empty room (and if you would, please, never get into game development).

 

[UserNamer]

The harder id has tried at single-player since, the more spectacularly they've failed -- even when it comes out as decently as Rage. And it's usually led their tech too far in whatever direction suits the game (although with impressive, forward-thinking results.)

they didn't fail, you are over exaggerating stuff. They were competently games that sold millions of copies. I prefer the id classics - doom, quake 1 and mods- or a serious sam 3 to doom 3, but that doesn't mean the games failed "spectacularly". Rage is also kinda fun in a way doom 3 and many other modern shooters aren't.

Also y'all are overthinking what an enemy IA should do in a proper action\fun based fps (who gives a shit about tacticool crap). Rage has a really neat IA that would lend itself very well to a full blown quake\doom successor. Overall I agree with abija

They didn't have a proper AI set to kill, not even close. Those were just scripted to make them look awesome and player reception was great..

at the time it was simply mind blowing how they would throw a grenade at the position they last saw you at- or at the sounds you produced if they couldn't see you.

Which is to say that IA is more about giving your enemies cool abilities and neat little behaviors and not being complete morons, not actually simulate real guerrila soldiers behavior so to have the most realistic simulator of staying behind a cover for hours

 

[crufty]

what made quake fun, for me, was it was possible to *be* very, very, very good at it

i never got the same feeling from the other quakes or dooms

 

[Abelian]

All this talk of shooters reminded me of these videos parodying popamole FPS's:

 

[gromit]

Nobody gives a fuck about those campaigns except reviewers and 12yos.

Maybe if they made campaigns that weren't complete utter shit, then people might care again?

People in an entirely different market, maybe. CoD in particular, they could save a lot of money if they could axe the campaigns -- the days of it being "cinematic" relative to other games, or making a media hubbub, are fairly over. But then they'd lose out on a convenient "sequel justifier" beyond what (sometimes clever) tweaks they add to MP. Really, I think a lot of people would just stick to their favorite version, like you see with fighting games, if there weren't so many CoDs that the servers get thin (unless you buy the new one, muah ha ha ha.)

So is targeted development bad now? Because the first 10 years of this site were spent bitching about decline via developers trying to stray from what they're good at, trying to please everyone instead of picking a point on the spectrum and nailing it. PC Gamers, 1999: "Oh no, two of the finest multiplayer FPS of all time came out, and they're balanced so they could sit on the head of a pin! What will we do if we want a campaign, besides play any of the glut of single-player FPS currently flowing out of publishers asses, many of which happen to be fantastic?"

What you wanted wasn't theirs to give. I don't even want to know what kind of turd they would have shat out for a Q3 campaign, or the detrimental effect it would have had by keeping their mappers and modelers from sweating the details in MP. But you're right -- they could have tried. They had the money to hire up a new team and seriously, patiently invest in reasserting the industry-wide dominance of people who aren't on the team.

Just keep throwing money in; hopefully you'll "only" end up with Daikatana instead of an unreleased Doom II-themed CoD clone. Just whatever you do, don't let a programmer at the top of his game, the only "big name professional" in character modelling, and a razor-sharp team of DM mappers do what they're good for.

 

[Invictus]

Might as well ask in this thread; where can I download the original games already moded and ready for modern PCs? I have this urge to popamole old skol, it is either this or playing Blood

 

[Jaesun]

So he finally got sick of making shitty dumbed down console games?

 

[Major_Blackhart]

So, why is this such a huge topic at this point?
Most people agree that he was a good programmer, shitty designer and did not like interacting with people because he was an autist douche.
At this point, everyone is arguing when the decline set in.
Here's the big one: Was ID games a one hit wonder type of company, producing Doom and Quake I and nothing else of real note?
Was it really a combination of this asshole's ying and that cocksucker's yang cancelling each other out and working together?
Was it really that the team in total was that good?
Or was it just a decent idea at the right time that, despite all the behind the scenes bullshit and obvious drama (because there was a ton of it, still is), still managed to be a good game? Kinda like the stars were aligned for the right task at the right moment type of dealio.

 

[praetor]

Was it really that the team in total was that good?
Or was it just a decent idea at the right time that, despite all the behind the scenes bullshit and obvious drama (because there was a ton of it, still is), still managed to be a good game? Kinda like the stars were aligned for the right task at the right moment type of dealio.

pretty much these 2. the right thing at the right time with a team that was more than the sum of its parts

in the romero vs. carmack debate, at least when romero left carmack was still a good programmer, but romero after id was an utter shit designer

 

[DraQ]

it is either this or playing Blood

Do you have any problems with Blood?

 

[Ninja Destroyer]

Might as well ask in this thread; where can I download the original games already moded and ready for modern PCs? I have this urge to popamole old skol, it is either this or playing Blood

You mean Doom 1/2 or Quake 1/2 ? Or Doom 3

 

[DraQ]

Well, Q2 *is* popamole.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Might as well ask in this thread; where can I download the original games already moded and ready for modern PCs? I have this urge to popamole old skol, it is either this or playing Blood

Play Blood, it's better than those other games anyway.

 

[DefJam101]

point to someplace on the doll, DraQ. tell us where Q2 touched you

 

[DraQ]

point to someplace on the doll, DraQ. tell us where Q2 touched you

Does it matter?

There is no locational damage in Q2.

 

[Sceptic]

So is targeted development bad now? Because the first 10 years of this site were spent bitching about decline via developers trying to stray from what they're good at, trying to please everyone instead of picking a point on the spectrum and nailing it. PC Gamers, 1999: "Oh no, two of the finest multiplayer FPS of all time came out, and they're balanced so they could sit on the head of a pin! What will we do if we want a campaign, besides play any of the glut of single-player FPS currently flowing out of publishers asses, many of which happen to be fantastic?"

You COMPLETELY missed the point and, I suspect, didn't read the rest of my previous post. If you had you'd have seen I have no problem with targeted development and even justified it in the case of UT, perhps for the exact same reason you can justify Q3's or COD's. In any case targeted development was unrelated to my own problem with id, which was to do with the quality of what they provided, not whether it was targeted or not. Fact of the matter is, if you provide a highly cinematic SP campaign that you spend a vast amount (perhaps most of) the budget on, it will get judged as part of the game. Don't want that? Don't put in the game. Want it to be judged as a good campaign? Make it good. It's as simple as that. And in any case, this whole argument once again has little to do with id so... why did you bring it up as a defense for id in the first place?

Just keep throwing money in; hopefully you'll "only" end up with Daikatana instead of an unreleased Doom II-themed CoD clone. Just whatever you do, don't let a programmer at the top of his game, the only "big name professional" in character modelling, and a razor-sharp team of DM mappers do what they're good for.

Actually, the point is not to let a programmer who's top at programming and understands design as well as I understand Chinese calligraphy do the frikkin design. And if you think this is still a good idea, well, have fun replaying Doom 3 or something.

Oh and I am not the one who kicked all the good razor-sharp designers out of the team

 

[gromit]

why did you bring it up as a defense for id in the first place?

I didn't, and it's not "a defense for id" just a reality check directed towards one of the many sentiments in this thread. Making Q3 was a good move, and one that produced a game a lot of people enjoyed, some of whom wore monocles. It didn't kill id's already-dead SP, just sidestepped its corpse. Building a SP design team from nearly-scratch with their fingers crossed is what made Doom3, and what didn't make Doom4.

Actually, the point is not to let a programmer who's top at programming and understands design as well as I understand Chinese calligraphy do the frikkin design. And if you think this is still a good idea, well, have fun replaying Doom 3 or something.

I apologize for mistaking this thread for some kind of vehicle for industry discussion, instead of a long-winded alternative to a "do you like modern id games yes/no" poll. "Missed the point," "didn't read," indeed.

I won't replay it, thanks, because I find Doom 3 is mediocre in every way but the technology, and its approach compared to its contemporaries and predecessors. But I relent: the whole thing is the technical director's fault.

1. Write Unified Lighting System
2. Fire Steed for Agreeing with Me
3. @ Willits re: Engine; Could We Please Not Use Features?
4. Refactor GUI System; Allow on Surfaces
5. @ Willits re: Monsters; Must Be in Closets
   
6. Merge Editor, Runtime renderers
   
7. Fire Reznor, Hire His Former Oompa Loompa

All I can really agree on, is that id made a terrible mistake letting the talent walk. I don't see why we hate on Carmack, even if it's "his fault" for bumping heads / egos with the people who left.

It's also those other peoples' fault. And nobody's, because that's just what happens when you keep too many "names" in the same room for too long. And definitely management's, for not leveraging the ample resources they had, to keep the talent happy and off of each other's throats.

A room overflowing with ideas turned into a tragedy. THAT was the time to hire.

They've been trapped in a stalemate which was established long ago. What you have most definitely actually written about, is how the company's recent history is Carmack's fault for playing designer (debatable) but that building a new SP team to reclaim a crown that was "theirs" would have saved them.

Uhm, didn't they just fuck themselves doing that?

the my point... my post... I have... my own problem (...)

It'd be a little bent to demand we all have little mini-discussions which pertain only to your points and opinions.

Not that it was as irrelevant to your own post, with its "stupid response is to scrap it out" and "proper response is to get more (SP) designers" and "maybe if they worked real hard on SP campaigns for MP games, people would play MP games for the SP."

So please excuse me for thinking you were talking about the thing you talked about; my apologies to you and the rest of the thread from straying from the list of facets of this topic that you'd like us to discuss.

 

[AstroZombie]

Might as well ask in this thread; where can I download the original games already moded and ready for modern PCs? I have this urge to popamole old skol, it is either this or playing Blood

Anything wrong with playing the second greatest first person shooter of all time?

 

[The Running Man]

I haven't played blood in years. Any good Mods worth playing through?