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John Carmack on JRE

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
There's no misunderstanding. But properly optimized workflows have teams specialized in just creating assets, that are heavily reused. It's a restriction that actually helps a lot. In theory his idea is great, in reality level designers with a lot more freedom will just spend tons more time for minute gains. That's the road to 3-4 hour long "michael bay" games.

The reason I wrote that you misunderstood what megatextures are about is because of this part that you wrote: "not to custom paint every corner of it". As I explained, you do not custom paint the megatexture, instead it is generated by the tools.

Also the megatexture doesn't affect level designers, it is primarily for the environment artists. The level designers use the same tools and the same workflow they'd use even without the megatexture, which wont affect the level lengths at all. Even then, the environment artists do not have further freedom in terms of what to do, they still have specific schedules and time allocated for their work - the main difference is that they can spend their allocated time on things they are good at (making the art assets) and not on things they are not good at (trying to squeeze stuff in available texture space) and the computer can do better anyway. They also still create assets that are heavily reused, you can find a lot of reused assets in Rage - they're just either baked into the megatexture or their reuse is apparent only though geometry but the texture looks a bit different (either due to lighting, other assets being baked on top of the base texture, or due to decals/splats applied on them).

As for the overall game length, I think the blame for that lies primarily on Tim Willits being unable to make the game fun (which IMO is a much bigger issue with Rage than its length).
 

abija

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Custom painting is how it was advertised, to allow detailing specific parts of the world whenever you wish then let the tools handle the rest. He had that vision since before Doom3 to fire up the game and modify it from within (talk about bad decisions... he tried to switch radiant to some futuristic tech, while Sweeney focused on unreal editor and churned money).

As for the blame on rage: definetly Willits is almost a hack and whoever promoted him to creative director deserves a lot of blame, but you can never really know how much the tech factored in. Their games were built to showcase Carmack's tech, gameplay/design elements never seemed to take precedence starting with Q2.
 

tritosine2k

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Neither continuous LOD or texture filtering (gaussian?) is solved tbh. Not to mention time lapse shadowing...
 

Bad Sector

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Custom painting is how it was advertised, to allow detailing specific parts of the world whenever you wish then let the tools handle the rest.

Where was it advertised as such? As i wrote above, there was a lot of misunderstanding about what megatextures were, including articles from gaming sites, so it could be that. The video that tritosine2k linked starts by pointing out that you do not really paint the megatexture itself but instead you use the editor pretty much like in any other engine (and indeed the way you work in the editor is pretty much the same like in most other game editors).

He had that vision since before Doom3 to fire up the game and modify it from within (talk about bad decisions... he tried to switch radiant to some futuristic tech, while Sweeney focused on unreal editor and churned money).

I'm not sure why you think it is a bad decision to try and make Radiant use the same renderer as the game, especially when you bring up Unreal since this is pretty much what Unreal does too. Personally i'm all for separating editor and engine (especially when it comes to larger programming teams - though ironically the engines that tend to be used in large teams tend to do the complete opposite) but there are also good reasons to have them combined (why waste time replicating the rendering functionality for your editor when you can use the engine's own renderer).
 

abija

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Where was it advertised as such? As i wrote above, there was a lot of misunderstanding about what megatextures were, including articles from gaming sites, so it could be that. The video that tritosine2k linked starts by pointing out that you do not really paint the megatexture itself but instead you use the editor pretty much like in any other engine (and indeed the way you work in the editor is pretty much the same like in most other game editors).
Who said anything about painting the texture directly? You have 2 identical doors in the game, you go in the editor, put some detail on one, then tools do the rest. That's what he meant and advertised about custom painting the world.

Because the editor and the game need different functionality and he went a lot farther than same renderer. And just like megatexture, tools that sound great on paper but they were far from optimal options (at the time he forced them at least).
 

Lyric Suite

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I think this argument is stuck between those who think gameplay is king and visuals don't matter (so who gives a fuck about megatextures) and those who are looking at the question from a purely engineering point of view (megatextures were poorly implemented lul), and i think both sides are missing the point.

As far as i can tell, what Carmack has attempted to do through out the years has always been that of trying to make his engines escape the limitations of what computer graphics could do at a given time. When engines couldn't move in real time, he set out to rectify that problem. When the limitations of the 2D/3D hybrid system of Doom became apparent, he set out to move towards full 3D with Quake. When curves were an issue in gaming engines, he attempted to solve that problem in Quake 3 etc etc. What he sought to achieve with megatextures follows along the same lines, and anyone who has paid attention you could see he always tried to avoid texture homogeneity in previous games, as far back as Quake 3 all through Doom 3 as well (so much so that the guy who did the high def version of the textures of the game had to reduce the amount of detail variety because it was too much work for him to redo the entire texture. So while the HD texture mod is higher definition, the textures are actually "simpler").

When you look at it from this point of view, it doesn't come as a surprise that Carmack moved to virtual reality because that's what he was always interested in at the end of the day. It is not so much the engineering aspects that interest him but the possibilities of computer technology to represent "reality" in its virtual spaces. He is actually more of a scientist in that respect than an engineer. It's the possibilities of the medium that fascinated him through out the years, not just the technical aspects that went in creating computer graphics specifically, and if i may say so, i was right with him through out each of his engines, and i really, really hate how the gaming industry has given up on trying to actually innovate and overcome limitations and how everything feels formulaic and stagnant. The only new thing that has improved lately that is reminiscent of what Carmack used to do in the old days is ray tracing, and that's only because Nvidia pushed for it as a marketing gimmick, because if it was up to the developers nobody would give a shit. They are all content of making the same games with the same technical issues and limitations.
 
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soulburner

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I think I wrote something similar in the Rage thread, but not only do I think that the game itself was very good, the technology itself was very impressive.
Sure, the textures didn't look too sharp, it had huge streaming issues on release, but the megatexture technology was amazing. The artists designing the maps could overlay as many textures on themselves and not worry about performance budget, because everything would be baked into the megatexture and be streamed just as if only a single texture was applied to a wall. That gave the artist enough freedom to make Rage look beyond amazing, but only when not too close to a wall, which is unfortunate, because that's what everyone focused on back in the day. The other impressive thing is there was no LOD - when you saw something from afar and you moved closer to it, it was just there and getting bigger. There was no level of detail changing while you moved closer, which annoys the hell out of me, because it still happens in games today. In Rage, everything that was drawn on screen, it was "physically" there. The NPC models were also pretty great and very well animated.

Rage did something cool nobody did before, too. Bi cubic texture filtering instead of bilinear. I don't know how games filter their textures today, but I bet not many of them use any more advanced methods. Enabling bicubic in Rage changed how the textures look significantly - they remained blurry, but much, much less. John Carmack once said that he will use Rage as a testing ground after release and gamers would be able to download a different build with experimental features built in. I'm not sure if he just moved away to something completely different or maybe it was Bethesda that said "don't do additional support for the game unless it's a showstopper bug". I also recall Carmack wanted to release the uncompressed megatexture, no matter how huge it might have been, for people who are most interested. He backed out and claimed it offered no increase in quality and resolution. I wonder if that is really the case.

Carmack was also probably very unsatisfied when Bethesda said "no" to source code releases. I remember someone said the lawyers at Bethesda were very angry when id released the source of Doom BFG - I might remember it wrong, but I think someone from id wrote about that. I think if he stayed with id Software he might have done something to keep releasing the code, but there is nothing we can really do about right now.

Regarding the future engines Carmack wanted to work on, I remember he said something about virtual geometry and voxels. There was a leaked video of a presentation by one of id programmers who showed the infinite amount of detail it allowed for. He showed a monster model and kept zooming on its hands and fingers and the detail was still there. John also wanted ray tracing, but was unsure if he could push the GPU manufacturers in that direction back then. Id tech 6 would probably "only" use voxels for geometry and ray tracing would be left for id Tech 7.

Anyhow, I really miss his game engines. He always made something new, even if it felt insignificant at first. I remember how people laughed that the blood in Quake 1 was just a few pixels floating in the air. Those were particles. Today, pretty much every effect in modern games is done with particles, only this time, there are thousands, if not millions of them.

So, now John is focused on virtual reality and it's pretty cool, too. He made some huge stuff I don't even wish to start to try and understand. There is some sort of prediction magic going on with pre-rendering areas the player is most likely going to look at, to decrease the latency and object/texture popping in. So this is all good stuff, but I think the initial hype for VR has kind of died down a lot.

I still have to listen to this Joe Rogan podcast, I always started listening before sleep and even though I love to listen to Carmack speak, I fell asleep within the first 45 minutes ;)
 

abija

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... but not only do I think that the game itself was very good, the technology itself was very impressive.
Sure, the textures didn't look too sharp, it had huge streaming issues on release, but the megatexture technology was amazing. The artists designing the maps could overlay as many textures on themselves and not worry about performance budget, because everything would be baked into the megatexture and be streamed just as if only a single texture was applied to a wall.

Maybe try reading what you wrote a couple of times and see the conflicting statements. Let me help you a bit:
- textures not so sharp, huge streaming issues
- artists don't need to worry about performance budget

And the announcement for no proper textures on PC (after teasing a 150GB or something source):
“there won’t be a super quality texture pack. Most of the source art isn’t at higher resolution, and comp effects weren’t that bad.”
Amazing tech, so much freedom...

Yeah sure, Lyric Suite is right, he is a scientist. He gets excited about interesting concepts.
But from a gamer perspective he shouldn't have been the one making the decisions at id outside of tech.
 
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Lyric Suite

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but only when not too close to a wall, which is unfortunate, because that's what everyone focused on back in the day.

That's because he had to keep the size of the game small to make Rage playable on consoles. It also really felt like Carmack had abandoned the PC altogether, which pissed off a lot of people.

Even Doom 3 probably suffered from multiplaforming because the textures weren't as high definition as they should have been. Consoles ruined PC gaming tech forever, and it sort of felt Carmack himself was in denial about that fact. Multiplaforming probably brought some beefy revenue to his company so he wanted to pretend there had been no impact on engine development which after all was the trademark of his games. But there was, and his stubbornness is probably what led to the downfall of the company, since once he lost the PC crowd he lost the only group of people who actually cared about his work as an engineer. It's not like his games had been all that great anyway since Quake 1, so what else was there? When news of what he was doing with Rage came out there was quite a bit of excitement but the game getting castrated on release to fit console hardware limitation and him stabbing PC enthusiasts in the back in the process is what ruined the reputation of id soft.

Epic Games too betrayed the PC market around the same time those people really became convinced of their own hubris. Consoles HAD to be the future 'cause muh money, and if PC gamers didn't like it since they could see THE GOD DAMN OBVIOUS FACT THAT CONSOLES RUINED TECH DEVELOPMENT they should have just shut the fuck up and suck it in lmao amrite? And lo and behold, both companies nearly went under and their reputation as the biggest tech innovators in the industry has never actually recovered. Good job, imbeciles.

And it's a god damn shame too because even though the artists made a shit use of the tech you can still see some of the signature traits of Carmack engines even today:



The variety of effects the game uses and the way they blend together is very impressive. Everything just feels slick and polished, just like in the old days. Too bad the color palette of the game had to range from period blood, vomit green to piss. Great job guys.
 
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soulburner

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... but not only do I think that the game itself was very good, the technology itself was very impressive.
Sure, the textures didn't look too sharp, it had huge streaming issues on release, but the megatexture technology was amazing. The artists designing the maps could overlay as many textures on themselves and not worry about performance budget, because everything would be baked into the megatexture and be streamed just as if only a single texture was applied to a wall.

Maybe try reading what you wrote a couple of times and see the conflicting statements. Let me help you a bit:
- textures not so sharp, huge streaming issues
- artists don't need to worry about performance budget

And the announcement for no proper textures on PC (after teasing a 150GB or something source):
“there won’t be a super quality texture pack. Most of the source art isn’t at higher resolution, and comp effects weren’t that bad.”
Amazing tech, so much freedom...

Yeah sure, Lyric Suite is right, he is a scientist. He gets excited about interesting concepts.
But from a gamer perspective he shouldn't have been the one making the decisions at id outside of tech.
As Lyric Suite sayd, the textures not being sharp was caused by consoles' limitation. Because it was planned from day one to run on consoles (and at 60fps, which is quite an achievement), the idea was to make the textures as they are in the final game right from the start of the project. First tests on consoles resulted in this specific texture resolution and it wasn't optimal to design them in higher quality, because no one would see it anyway (edit - the original textures, as designed by texture artists, were most likely in much higher resolution and they probably are still stored on some long lost and forgotten hard drive, but getting back to them and remaking the megatexture solely for the PC was probably too much effort). So - yes, the tech is amazing. Megatexture is awesome, but it was crippled because of consoles. If the game was designed for the PC first and then ported to console, then it would have been a different story. The fact is the primary platform for the game was Xbox 360.

Not only Epic joined the consoles-first movement. Crytek with its Crysis 2 is also a good example. The first Crysis was amazing on PC (and still is, 12 years later) and the sequel was planned to raise the bar even further. The original prerelease videos showed a lot more destrukction possible. Each window had a glass that could be shattered and there was some depth inside that made it look as if there really was a room there. Explosions changed the geometry of pretty much everything. But then the plans changed - this must be a console game. So the windows and destruction was scrapped. Most likely the maps were also changed to be more closed in with much lower draw distances.
 

Nutmeg

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Lyric Suite

1. Carmack was probably not the guy making decisions for which platform art assets should be optimized, assuming any such optimization took place.

2. Game engines are usually built to exploit hardware that doesn't even exist (in the consumer market) yet, and then you just strip shit down for builds targetting lesser platforms. At least this is the case with UE4 and e.g. I know FF7 and Mario 64 were built on $100,000+ Symbolics Lisp machines. Id used expensive NEXT machines when devleoping Quake. SGI workstations were the norm for Playstation 1 and Sega Saturn development.
 

soulburner

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Lyric Suite

1. Carmack was probably not the guy making decisions for which platform art assets should be optimized, assuming any such optimization took place.

2. Game engines are usually built to exploit hardware that doesn't even exist (in the consumer market) yet, and then you just strip shit down for builds targetting lesser platforms. At least this is the case with UE4 and e.g. I know FF7 and Mario 64 were built on $100,000+ Symbolics Lisp machines. Id used expensive NEXT machines when devleoping Quake. SGI workstations were the norm for Playstation 1 and Sega Saturn development.

ad. 1 - this is very likely that he was forced to work with what he was told to
ad. 2 - yes, sometimes it is so. It used to be so with multi platform titles which were designed for the PC first and then stripped down for consoles. Building game assets on a mega powerful machine is not uncommon and does not mean that the original higher quality assets were ever planned to be put in a playable version. Doom was designed on powerful NextStep machines which were way ahead of their DOS competition - it does not mean that there's somewhere a playable version with higher resolution sprites.
 

Lyric Suite

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1. Carmack was probably not the guy making decisions for which platform art assets should be optimized, assuming any such optimization took place.

I see, so this is what you were objecting to.

It's possible that Carmack was following orders and was "told" to shill for consoles, but it still came off as a betrayal. And maybe that's why he left id to focus on other technologies.

To this day and age i still don't understand why all those independent companies sold out so easily. I mean, yeah, money etc but come on, this is a textbook case of sacrificing long term prospects for short term gains and they ALL do it and it ALWAYS leads to disaster. Maybe getting raped on his VR tech taught Carmack a lesson but it's too late now.
 

tritosine2k

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There was even story about Carmack disciplining coworkers (playtesters?) occupied with m+kb iirc.
 

abija

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2. Game engines are usually built to exploit hardware that doesn't even exist (in the consumer market) yet, and then you just strip shit down for builds targetting lesser platforms. At least this is the case with UE4 and e.g. I know FF7 and Mario 64 were built on $100,000+ Symbolics Lisp machines. Id used expensive NEXT machines when devleoping Quake. SGI workstations were the norm for Playstation 1 and Sega Saturn development.
Get a grip. Those were the workstations used to be able to run their tools at least somewhat decently (not spend 1 month to process a map change).
 

soulburner

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2. Game engines are usually built to exploit hardware that doesn't even exist (in the consumer market) yet, and then you just strip shit down for builds targetting lesser platforms. At least this is the case with UE4 and e.g. I know FF7 and Mario 64 were built on $100,000+ Symbolics Lisp machines. Id used expensive NEXT machines when devleoping Quake. SGI workstations were the norm for Playstation 1 and Sega Saturn development.
Get a grip. Those were the workstations used to be able to run their tools at least somewhat decently (not spend 1 month to process a map change).
Exactly. Compiling a map for Quake on an early Pentium machine took eons. Developers never had the luxury of waiting two hours to test an added light entity.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Who said anything about painting the texture directly? You have 2 identical doors in the game, you go in the editor, put some detail on one, then tools do the rest.

Well, in the original comment i quoted you wrote "You want to reuse as many assets in generating the world not to custom paint every corner of it". If you didn't mean painting the texture directly, then what else did you mean? The workflow for the editor is the same as in most other engines.

Because the editor and the game need different functionality and he went a lot farther than same renderer. And just like megatexture, tools that sound great on paper but they were far from optimal options (at the time he forced them at least).

Yes, that is mainly my argument towards splitting the editor and engine, however many other engines - including Unity and Unreal - still work like that and there are both pros and cons with that approach (both depending on the developers' circumstances - it isn't a clear cut black & white case).

Maybe try reading what you wrote a couple of times and see the conflicting statements. Let me help you a bit:
- textures not so sharp, huge streaming issues
- artists don't need to worry about performance budget [...] Amazing tech, so much freedom...

These two are not contradictory, the textures are not sharp because they are baked at a low resolution, the streaming issues happen because on PC there is no unified memory (the megatexture approach used in Rage was made with XBox360 in mind mostly) and at the same time the artists didn't need to worry about performance (as far as texturing goes) which gave them (more) freedom in terms of detailing the world, because the engine combined all that into the single megatexture. I've explained those in my original message above.

That's because he had to keep the size of the game small to make Rage playable on consoles.

Note that Rage's tech was designed from the start with consoles in mind, the megatexture itself is assuming the unified memory architecture found on the XBox 360 - on the PC the closest you get is the integrated GPUs (but those weren't really a target, even though Intel did release an OpenGL extension that allows you to map GPU memory on the CPU thus in theory could be used in a similar way).

Even Doom 3 probably suffered from multiplaforming because the textures weren't as high definition as they should have been.

The console version of Doom 3 was handled by a different company and had several changes. Also at release there were barely any GPUs that had enough video memory to handle its "Ultra" quality setting (the game showed a message saying so), it was a future-proofing option really. Doom 3 was a high tech PC game through and through :-P.

The BFG editions however did got some downgrades (some lights do not cast shadows, simplified shaders, textures are in full resolution but always compressed, etc).
 

Anthedon

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Great show, Carmack is the archetypical turbo-nerd. Just look at this:

As reported in David Kushner's Masters of Doom, when Carmack was 14, he broke into a school to help a group of children steal Apple II computers. To gain entry to the building, Carmack concocted a sticky substance of thermite mixed with Vaseline that melted through the windows. However, an overweight accomplice struggled to get through the hole, and opened the window, setting off a silent alarm and alerting police. Carmack was arrested, and sent for psychiatric evaluation (the report mentions "no empathy for other human beings" and describes Carmack as "a brain on legs")

He didn't talk enough about the glory days (at least for the Codex), but it's overall a very interesting episode.
 

Wirdschowerdn

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...Carmack was arrested, and sent for psychiatric evaluation (the report mentions "no empathy for other human beings" and describes Carmack as "a brain on legs")

doom_spider_mastermind-590x334.jpg


Hmmm....
 

Wyatt_Derp

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Great show, Carmack is the archetypical turbo-nerd. Just look at this:

As reported in David Kushner's Masters of Doom, when Carmack was 14, he broke into a school to help a group of children steal Apple II computers. To gain entry to the building, Carmack concocted a sticky substance of thermite mixed with Vaseline that melted through the windows. However, an overweight accomplice struggled to get through the hole, and opened the window, setting off a silent alarm and alerting police. Carmack was arrested, and sent for psychiatric evaluation (the report mentions "no empathy for other human beings" and describes Carmack as "a brain on legs")

He didn't talk enough about the glory days (at least for the Codex), but it's overall a very interesting episode.

Note to thieves - don't hire the fat guy to be the one who crawls through the window. Carmack might be good at tech, but his sneak/pickpocket skills need some work.

And high INT and no empathy? I guess he's got an honorary Illuminati membership coming.
 

Dexter

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Consoles ruined PC gaming tech forever, and it sort of felt Carmack himself was in denial about that fact. Multiplaforming probably brought some beefy revenue to his company so he wanted to pretend there had been no impact on engine development which after all was the trademark of his games. But there was, and his stubbornness is probably what led to the downfall of the company, since once he lost the PC crowd he lost the only group of people who actually cared about his work as an engineer.

Epic Games too betrayed the PC market around the same time those people really became convinced of their own hubris. Consoles HAD to be the future 'cause muh money, and if PC gamers didn't like it since they could see THE GOD DAMN OBVIOUS FACT THAT CONSOLES RUINED TECH DEVELOPMENT they should have just shut the fuck up and suck it in lmao amrite? And lo and behold, both companies nearly went under and their reputation as the biggest tech innovators in the industry has never actually recovered. Good job, imbeciles.
Don't forget CryTek that became big with large Open-World titles like Far Cry and Crysis on PC, then moved over development to consoles with Crysis 2/3, making them boring corridor shooters and added Muh Multiplayer to "Make the big console money", only that "big console money" never really materialized for them and the sequels sold about the same or even worse than the first Crysis sold on PC alone, not even with their console Exclusive "Ryse: Son of Rome". Nowadays they're mostly known for making money by licensing out their engine to other developers.

And remember what happened to Crysis when they tried porting it to the same consoles they mainly developed the sequels for?

pRHuppP.jpg


 

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