Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

[tuluse]

Primordia and any point-click adventure games with multiple endings are RPGs, as the world is changed by your actions as a character during the game.

If it's just the ending, it doesn't count in Josh's book. I'm unfamiliar with these things so I wouldn't know.

There are slight differences before the end, but I don't believe you make a personality decision until the end of the game. Before that it's just how well you solve specific puzzles.

Edit: now if felipepepe had said Blade Runner he would have a much stronger argument.

 

[Roguey]

So Fallout: New Vegas isn't an RPG?

Saying that you can't express your personality in a way that changes the development of New Vegas's story throughout its duration is a massive untruth.

 

[Invictus]

Sorry to Roguey and all the Sawyer fans...but who the fuck does he thnk he is?
He can play his "I am the best designer" exactly of what?
Seriously what is his fucking resume for that claim?
Is he JVC, Tom Hall, Bradley, or even fuckng Todd Howard? At least those guys have their title on the games they helmed, where the fuck does he get the balls to say "I am right"?
Where is Tim Cain hidding his cock into these days, when I say faggot I think he would not be offended at all but where is his imput?
Where is that doodering retard Fergus in all of this? He put iin charge of his first Kickstarter whch was backed on the premise of beign "an IE spiritual succesor" and he gave it to a guy who not only doesn't like those games, their D&D system, story or even NPCs? Is he kidding us!?
Sawyer is supposed to love Darklands but doesn't have the balls to implement a skill based progresion system instead of an IE inspired xp system, so for IE fans he gives the finger, to Darklands fans he tells us to dream on and replay it again and to ALL the backers he sharts in our face and says "trust daddy"
Where does he get the balls?
Just because he is a tattooed game desgner he feels he is cool surfer dude who s going to "show us all" what s really going on
Fuck Sawyer
Fuck balance
Fuck Cain
Fuck Fergus
And fuck me for falling for this shit
I deeply regret the money I sank into this fiiasco which even if the combat and bugs are fixed iit will be forever fucked by the desgn of that idiot
I want a IE based game, an updated Darklands...I am not only getting neither but somehting that won't even mesure up to neither
Rant mode off

 

[Volourn]

"If Larian, with their minuscule fame, can do D:OS selling it without any cover-up -"

FUCK OFF. People who repeat this bullshit are intellectually dishonest. larian has eben around for eyars, ahve made multiple SUCCESSFUL games IN THIS SERIES ALONE. The very first one, DD sold a million+ copies, and was a success. They have also published their own games. Theya ren't some rinky dinky outfit. the fact they hoodwinked people to throw money on KS at them even thoguh the game was already pretty much fukkin' done and was guaranteed to eb released NO MATTER WHAT is retartet.

They aren't Blizzard or Bethesda but they aren't some 'miniscue' company working from a garage FFS.

 

[undecaf]

There are slight differences before the end, but I don't believe you make a personality decision until the end of the game. Before that it's just how well you solve specific puzzles.

Edit: now if felipepepe had said Blade Runner he would have a much stronger argument.

How about this?

I think there were some ending variations too.

 

[Roguey]

That would be light role-playing, but the supported range of expression is very narrow. You're always Indiana Jones, it's just a question of whether you're cooperative, a loner, or a puncher.

 

[CyberP]

Right, I'm going to have to elaborate on what I said earlier: Balance. Deus Ex.

What I've done is balanced the core RPG systems. Balanced how? I've made them worthy of investment, made sure they all have their uses and made sure they are not over-empowering, do not completely tear apart the systems (See: DX1 popamole-like Regeneration).
However, this is as far as it goes. There is not complete uniformity in character builds: investing all your points into swimming, environmental training and demolitions is not a wise choice, likewise focusing exclusively on weapons skills will leave you without extra tactical options. But it's still all up to you on how to build your character and some builds may be more or less effective overall. What matters was every investment was worthwhile rather than a complete waste of time (See: demolitions skill, there was next to no worth to be found in this skill), and that when choosing how to build your character everything seems appealing (because it now is) and therefore C&C in the gameplay is fulfilled, replayabiliity bolstered and even right to the end of the game upgrading your character is fresh and exciting, spending aeons pondering what you'd like to upgrade.

I believe this cumulative whole is balance done right, and in achieving this balance I've simultaneously added more depth to the systems which is obviously a plus. However I cannot claim to be a master of design nor better than Sawyer, that claim was tongue in cheek.
A true test would be making a game from scratch and getting it right first try on release, which is certainly no mean feat.

I will try PoE on release. Y'all make it sound like Sawyer's idea of balance is "everything rewards the player equally, every build choice, item (even potions?), armour and so on yields the same level of worth overall" which certainly would be extreme, but I don't see Sawyer taking it that far, but obviously I have no say in the matter without hands-on time with PoE.
Looking at FO:NV's design this was not the case at all, a nice level of balance was achieved (minus a few major mishaps) whilst character builds and options in general had great diversity.
We shall see. You're either being edgy tards or Sawyer has obsessed over this too much and stepped over the line into dull genericness...which would be very unfortunate as after FO:NV I expected only incline from Sawyer.

 

[Blaine]

Also, felipepepe, PoE may or may not turn out to be a failure, but you can't really call Sawyer more arrogant than your average Codex poster who discusses RPG design.

The average Codex poster isn't the project lead for Not Baldur's Dale 3, though. It doesn't matter if we grossly overestimate our own expertise, because we're not in charge of anything.

 

[Invictus]

Yeah well Blaine the average Codexer isn't iin charge of a multmlion dolar project backed by nostalgic IE fans
Furthermore, Sawyer is cool and dandy to say "this sucks and you are wrong" but then again he has ALWAYS played with someone else's toys; he has never been n charge of anyhting much less a blank slate game system!
He has always been a "B lister" workiing off someone else's work.
Be it Icewind Dale (system developed by Bioware)
KOTOR 2 (same deal)
NWN etc
How does using someone elses designs make him an authority on anything but getting a monkey tattoo and a 30 second blowjob from the green tshirt intern from the funding video?
Even if you loathe something you have to respevt why it was done that way and what other people (ie your paying customers) think of it, instead of saying he is right

 

[Blaine]

Yeah well Blaine the average Codexer isn't iin charge of a multmlion dolar project backed by nostalgic IE fans

That's what I just said.

 

[Roguey]

The majority of JES's "D&D/RPGs are garbage" posts are from years before Eternity was ever a thing btw.

 

[4too]

Don't Look Back

… Rant mode …

Horses already out of the barn, best seat to view the incline / decline (or inde -cline) may be in the direction the animal purports to be going. Clinton-ian spinning of what IS IS on the run!

… Not Baldur's Dale 3 …

Suggestion.

Using diced assemblies of NWN, IWD, and BG in reference to a situational ' big lie ' by an entity with special rights (i.e. a corporation) perhaps NEVER GATE (or any swing with - Gate)

may have a resonate ring / sting.

Never Forget, NEVER GATE .




4too

 

[SuicideBunny]

So Fallout: New Vegas isn't an RPG?

Saying that you can't express your personality in a way that changes the development of New Vegas's story throughout its duration is a massive untruth.

sounds like sawyer is a crypto-larper, considering that facade would be an rpg by that definition.

 

[felipepepe]

The Ultimate Sawyer RPG:

Make choices and express your personality every 5 seconds! Classless systems with perfectly balanced combat, attributes and items!

 

[CyberP]

How does using someone elses designs make him an authority on anything but getting a monkey tattoo and a 30 second blowjob from the green tshirt intern from the funding video?

Can I have such a reward now too?

 

[CyberP]

Oh damn, it's the self-fulling codex prophecy. Ignore the modder until they become an attention-whoring modder.

 

[4too]

That Was Then, This Is Now



The Brazilian Slaughter. Thanks for this opportunity, may I play through!


Your revisionist spin on the Fallout games' character build system serves the market trend of streamlining game play into easily digestible units, with no 'teh' hard reading or trial and error
exploration.


That Was Then I ask you to consider that at the time character building 'nuts and bolts' were part of the game play.

Reading and memory were part of the game play. Learning the game system was part of the gameplay.

It was a unique vector space, empty skills - the abstract distance between successful combination of variables. A Time and Space.

It was it's own sand box.

To day, gameplay system learning may be only for the entitled corporate elite. So calm down, help is on the way. Shovel away the bullsh-t! Tune in, turn off and bliss out!

You will not sell MORE units of PoE or NEVER GATE by beating up on the FO's. Accurate comparisons and contrasts just may.


This Is Now I would NEVER antiquate PoE or NEVER GATE with layers of 'old school' complexity and have Obsidian lose sales.

NEVER GATE could stand on it's own, not STEAL memories / tropes / memes of older concepts of gameplay. Surely the corporate writing of this history will 'retire' the legitimate claims of misdirection. We'll all just 'shovel' along!

I agree that FO style game systems are no longer a commodity that can be sold for higher quarterly returns for alleged sponsoring corporations.

Never Forget, NEVER GATE .




4too

 

[JarlFrank]

Fuck balance.

That's all that needs to be said about balance.

(Yeah it's p. fucking awesome when each choice is useful and viable, but that's what I'd call good system design rather than balance; explicitly aiming for balance usually ensures most choices being boring due to sameyness)

 

[CyberP]

(Yeah it's p. fucking awesome when each choice is useful and viable, but that's what I'd call good system design rather than balance; explicitly aiming for balance usually ensures most choices being boring due to sameyness)

When has this ever happened though, outside of various Bioware RPGs? Nearly every developer, RPG or not, strives for it and so they should. Even the popamole has at least some consideration for balance in it's many forms.

Please don't fuck balance, she's all mine.

Yes, aiming for complete uniformity and balance in everything is going too far, but balance in it's many standard forms is essential. Placing a cache of 50 skill books for the player to find immediately after leaving the vault in Fallout would fuck balance and take the fun out of progression and C&C in the skill system. Nobody seriously into gaming or RPGs wants that.

So yes, trash options are bullshit.

Only in terms of core RPG systems are trash options bullshit, and even outside of core systems trash options should be kept to a minimum, but they still have their place.

 

[TheGreatOne]

MCA also worked on Lionheart (and Dark Alliance) and, unlike Sawyer, who is only listed in the credits under SPECIAL design and testing thanks, he actually wrote stuff for the game. But before you set your edginess against him, you should know he only wrote a few bits of Barcelona, the game's only good area.

I don't have to, since he hasn't claimed to be the best CRPG designer (nor writer) of all time. The designer of Thief now works on shovelware movie license games and Warren Spector made Invisible War&Epic Mickey etc, but I don't care since those people actually made some great games before their decline, where as JES claimed himself to be the king of CRPGs before even designing a single good one.

 

[Jaesun]

JES claimed himself to be the king of CRPGs before even designing a single good one.

He did? Do you have a source for that?

 

[Volourn]

The fact he has called every other developer shit is enough to show what his arrogant overflated opinion of himselfis

 

[imweasel]

I think Sawyer's idea of balance is to eliminate trash choices in general. Make them not-trash.

Which is honorable, although no trash options isn't a critical or crucial factor in good systems design.

 

[HiddenX]

I think Sawyer's idea of balance is to eliminate trash choices in general. Make them not-trash.

Which is honorable, although no trash options isn't a critical or crucial factor in good systems design.

Exactly - there were some so called "trash" skills and spells for example in the Realms of Arkania series (history, religion, etc.) - still one of the best games in which attributes, skills, gear, character classes, characater creation and progression really matter in every aspect of the game (-> dialog options, exploration possibilities, combat/spell options, ...)

 

[Cosmo]

I think Sawyer's idea of balance is to eliminate trash choices in general. Make them not-trash.

Which is honorable, although no trash options isn't a critical or crucial factor in good systems design.

It has its importance when as a game designer you don't want to do a sloppy job. Moreover, when i see a "diamonds in a pile of shit" game like Arcanum, i tell myself that yes, it may be critical after all...