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Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

Harold

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TheGreatOne MCA also worked on Lionheart (and Dark Alliance) and, unlike Sawyer, who is only listed in the credits under SPECIAL design and testing thanks, he actually wrote stuff for the game. But before you set your edginess against him, you should know he only wrote a few bits of Barcelona, the game's only good area.

Oh, and be sure to whine about Feargus and Chris Parker as well, both producers on the game, and also probably the ones who had the brilliant idea to let Reflexive use the SPECIAL system.
Godspeed, young shitposter. :salute:
 

mastroego

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The game plays almost exactly like IE games, so I don't think there was any dishonesty. They made it clear in the pitch it wasn't going to be D&D.

Clear to whom? To those who read every little tidbit, listen to the Lead Developer's interviews, and read the fine print?
People rushed to pledge because of the BG2 look. D&D was never a possibility, but the fundamental philosophy was.
Most of the pledgers surely didn't even read the sale pitch through once. They paid and hoped for the best.
Some probably weren't English speaking, and were hoping for the Internationalization, anyway.


Their fault for not reading more carefully? Sure enough.
Still Obsidian made this play, and I DESPISE them for it.
They banked on people's nostalgia, and it worked for them.... this time.
 

Infinitron

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I don't quite understand the BG2 angst. Baldur's Gate 2 is basically synonymous with "high level campaign", and even setting Sawyerism aside, there was no way Pillars was going to be that.

You start from the beginning. Every BG2 needs its BG1. (which btw is a game that Sawyer has never said anything specifically bad about to my knowledge)
 

mastroego

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I don't quite understand the BG2 angst. Baldur's Gate 2 is basically synonymous with "high level campaign", and even setting Sawyerism aside, there was no way Pillars was going to be that.

You start from the beginning. Every BG2 needs its BG1. (a game, btw, which Sawyer has never said anything specifically bad about to my knowledge)

Infinitron, we talked about this.
It's not the system, it's not the level.
It's the approach.
Sawyer believes he can reduce it all to well balanced math. He's wrong.
The most beloved fantasy games took the opposite approach (MoM, BG2): they went daringly wherever they possibly could and were amazing for that.

I'm no artist but I can tell you this: "painting by the numbers" sucks. Unless you copy someone else's numbers... someone's that's good.
 

Harold

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jsawcry.jpg
 

Infinitron

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Infinitron, we talked about this.
It's not the system, it's not the level.
It's the approach.

I agree with you up to here. BG2 very deliberately went off-the-walls crazy. You went from a game where a single demon was considered the final boss of an entire expansion pack, to a sequel where you were slaying hordes of them in hell.

Pillars of Eternity, however, markets itself as "mundane fantasy": http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-02-10-pillars-of-eternity-interview-off-cuts
 

felipepepe

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Dragon Age 2 had you literally learning how to summon meteors at Lv 2. It's not about raw power, but doing interesting things with it. PoE wizards are high-powered enough to cast fireballs and summon dead armies, but can't open one fucking lock.

I wonder if Sawyer has a lore-friendly explanation for this... like how lock are built out of anti-magic stones, or whatever...
 

tuluse

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Dragon Age 2 had you literally learning how to summon meteors at Lv 2. It's not about raw power, but doing interesting things with it. PoE wizards are high-powered enough to cast fireballs and summon dead armies, but can't open one fucking lock.

I wonder if Sawyer has a lore-friendly explanation for this... like how lock are built out of anti-magic stones, or whatever...
Sure they can, as long as they learn mechanics :)
 

Infinitron

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You couldn't blast doors open with fireballs in the IE games. Choose your threshold for suspension of disbelief

(An unappreciated feature of Neverwinter Nights is that it implemented hit points for physical objects in the world, so you could break and blow shit up.)
 

Athelas

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Dragon Age 2 had you literally learning how to summon meteors at Lv 2. It's not about raw power, but doing interesting things with it. PoE wizards are high-powered enough to cast fireballs and summon dead armies, but can't open one fucking lock.

I wonder if Sawyer has a lore-friendly explanation for this... like how lock are built out of anti-magic stones, or whatever...
You could leverage the same criticism towards pretty much every RPG ever made, except for perhaps D:OS with all its freeform mechanics. Your posts come across at grasping at straws at this point.

The existence of a dedicated 'open locks' spell is one of the silliest things in D&D, by the way.
 
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Roguey

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With this "definition" PacMan could be an RPG...
Nah. What personality choices are you making and how are the reactions differentiated?

(which btw is a game that Sawyer has never said anything specifically bad about to my knowledge)
He thought its content density was too sparse, didn't like the writing, specifically hated that misplaced Nietzsche quote at the beginning and actually praised Beamdog for removing it, and he hated the lack of racial bonuses and the various manual lies.
 

Roguey

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HiddenX

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With this "definition" PacMan could be an RPG...
Nah. What personality choices are you making and how are the reactions differentiated?

Personality: I eat only cherries and Pinky...
Reaction: Slow, Blue and Red Guy can live forever ;)


The player controls Pac-Man through a blue maze, eating pac-dots (also called pellets) and fruit. When all pac-dots are eaten, Pac-Man is taken to the next stage. Between some stages one of three intermission animations plays.[22] Four enemies (Blinky, Pinky, Inky and Clyde) roam the maze, trying to catch Pac-Man. If an enemy touches Pac-Man, a life is lost and the Pac-Man itself withers and dies. When all lives have been lost, the game ends. Pac-Man is awarded a single bonus life at 10,000 points by default—DIP switches inside the machine can change the required points or disable the bonus life altogether.

Near the corners of the maze are four larger, flashing dots known as power pellets that provide Pac-Man with the temporary ability to eat the enemies. The enemies turn deep blue, reverse direction and usually move more slowly. When an enemy is eaten, its eyes remain and return to the center box where it is regenerated in its normal color. Blue enemies flash white to signal that they are about to become dangerous again and the length of time for which the enemies remain vulnerable varies from one stage to the next, generally becoming shorter as the game progresses. In later stages, the enemies go straight to flashing, bypassing blue, which means that they can only be eaten for a short amount of time, although they still reverse direction when a power pellet is eaten; in even later stages, the ghosts do not become edible (i.e. they do not change color and still make Pac-Man lose a life on contact), but they still reverse direction.

Perfectly balanced RPG by the laws of Saywer if you think about it...
 

Roguey

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That's self-imposed challenge.

Josh requires scripted and systematic reactivity to the decisions you make through your character.
 

HiddenX

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That's self-imposed challenge.

Josh requires scripted and systematic reactivity to the decisions you make through your character.

So in CRPG by Joshi I can't choose my faction(s) freely? How bad... :)
 

felipepepe

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Primordia and any point-click adventure games with multiple endings are RPGs, as the world is changed by your actions as a character during the game.
 

mondblut

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I wonder if Sawyer has a lore-friendly explanation for this... like how lock are built out of anti-magic stones, or whatever...

Makes perfect sense, actually. Why bother with common locks when anybody can get a "knock" cast over it? As numerous people are capable of opening locks magically, locksmiths proceed to invent antimagic locks. Same as with the age old "why those mighty wizards can't just make gold out of shit?" Because if they could, it would instantly become worthless and end up replaced with something else that wizards can't make out of shit.
 

Roguey

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Primordia and any point-click adventure games with multiple endings are RPGs, as the world is changed by your actions as a character during the game.
If it's just the ending, it doesn't count in Josh's book. I'm unfamiliar with these things so I wouldn't know.
 

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