Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

[Zorba the Hutt]

If something is problematic from a balance point of view he's happy to rip it out of the game. When someone complains that they had fun with it in the past he informs them in his usual tactful manner that no, they didn't really have fun with it.

He said the opposite of this.

“Maybe the grognards like it, but for everyone else it’s kind of frustrating and so we try to get away from that as much as possible.”

“There are people that’ll say to me ‘oh man, it’s fun to do that’, but no. No, it’s not.”

 

[Athelas]

Take this what Sawyer quote at Kotaku:

It is now 2014 and, friends, I am here to tell you that trash options are bullshit.

Anyone familiar with the Dark Souls community can tell that's bullshit. They have pages and pages of debates and live streams of people playing the game at Soul Level 1, only with Crossbows, Naked, using those shitty fist weapons, etc... it's part of why the game is still being replayed today. But do you think that Hidetaka Miyazaki cares about what that baka no gaijin is ranting about at Kotaku, of all places? They prove him wrong by their work, not words.

How so? Not leveling up and fighting naked/unarmed are not trash options, they're self-imposed challenges. A trash option would be a type of weapon that's always inferior to another type of weapon, or a skill that you can invest points into but that's rarely used/checked in the game.

By the way, the way armor works in PoE (fighting with light armor or naked results in recovery time) is simiilar to how armor works in Dark Souls.

 

[felipepepe]

“There are people that’ll say to me ‘oh man, it’s fun to do that’, but no. No, it’s not.”

This is the dumbest quote I ever saw a developer say. Say what you want about Bethesda or BioWare, they were never this arrogant.

What's more important, you talk about self-imposed challenges, not those resulting of bad game design. I can reassure you, you'll be able to only take the shittiest loot if you want challenge in PoE, or play the game solo. More seriously i find it strange that you would take DS as an example, a game that Sawyer liked and is a paragon of balance in terms of character development.

Heh, Sawyer's enchantment system disagrees with you. Remember, even the shittiest weapon in the game can be enchanted and behave like top weapons, and every weapon is supposed to be equally BALANCED and viable. Also, I'm not convinced that PoE can be beaten solo. For starters, the only way to remove party members is by killing them. Then, there's BALANCE, specifically designed to avoid any kind of cheesing...

Sawyer liking DS only makes his statements more absurd. I doubt he was never invaded by a guy wearing a retarded gear that utterly destroyed him....

A trash option would be a type of weapon that's always inferior to another type of weapon, or a skill that you can invest points into but that's rarely used/checked in the game.

If you ever played DS, you know that fist weapons are fucking unplayable for most people. They have 0 range, shit damage, lame combos...

 

[Athelas]

If you ever played DS, you know that fist weapons are fucking unplayable for most people. They have 0 range, shit damage, lame combos...

Yes, and do you think the creators of DS intended that? If one wanted a self-imposeded challenge, they could just fight with their fists (that is, with their own fists, unarmed). Or they could just use a very weak weapon (like the sword hilt you start out with).

Also, I'm not convinced that PoE can be beaten solo. For starters, the only way to remove party members is by killing them.

Don't be silly. You can dismiss your party members/tell them to stay at the stronghold.

Remember, even the shittiest weapon in the game can be enchanted and behave like top weapons, and every weapon is supposed to be equally BALANCED and viable.

You don't have to use the enchanting system and a weapon with a higher base power is always going to have an obvious headstart over a weaker weapon that's enchanted. And no, not every weapon is supposed to be equally viable (which would be absurd), every weapon type is. Though even that's not the case in the current beta.

 

[Roguey]

This is the dumbest quote I ever saw a developer say. Say what you want about Bethesda or BioWare, they were never this arrogant.

Bethesda and Bioware are significantly more arrogant than JES. No one at those companies would ever say anything like
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...w-to-balance-an-rpg.93761/page-8#post-3465403 because as far as they're concerned, they could never create a bad game, just games that don't cater to your tastes (which is also what JES is doing).

 

[SymbolicFrank]

This is the dumbest quote I ever saw a developer say. Say what you want about Bethesda or BioWare, they were never this arrogant.

Bethesda and Bioware are significantly more arrogant than JES. No one at those companies would ever say anything like
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...w-to-balance-an-rpg.93761/page-8#post-3465403 because as far as they're concerned, they could never create a bad game, just games that don't cater to your tastes (which is also what JES is doing).

So, you didn't follow the Obsidian hype? Pete Hines was full of "balance".

 

[Roguey]

"The kind of fun you like to have is stupid and dumb" is something posters on the Codex say all the time to Beth and Bio fans so turnabout is fair play.

Still not as arrogant as blacklisting websites who criticize you, like Bethesda's done to this forum, NMA, and that Star Trek forum. Or

 

[Volourn]

Yeah, that last paragraph shows how delusional and arrogant Gaider is.

LMAO

 

[4too]

PoE Kickstarter: Under A False Flag?




Riffing off JS @ http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/53770-elegance-in-crpg-rulesets/?st=-5#entry996656


Guess we may be all on Josh Sawyer's 'short bus' of social engineering and will be forced to *enjoy* HIS game play.

Run like cattle / sheep down a chute!

The depersonalization by JS and his corporate representatives can only attenuate emotional nuances.

Open contempt has a way of wearing one down.

Caring one way or another will just fade in the light of real life.

Bought FO 3 and FO:NV for Fallout content and never finished, no game-play / enjoyment hooks manifested, became too low a priority.

AAA titles have moved on …like all smart money, uptown … dwindling curb appeal.

Have had dollars to stuff in the thongs of the Kickstarter 'old school' bump and grind-s, until irrational exuberance got side lined by some non specific social disease … or the JS quote.


This is where Kickstarter fatigue sets in. Thanks for the back hand of reality Obsidian!


Let's get back to Kickstarters as illusionary grass roots, people power projects.

What would one expect from a AAA corporate wanna be, doing a 'hobby' project until they can land a slam dunk like a ^Star Wars^ franchise money machine?

This is PoE? A place holder?

Maybe it's a test ground too.

If the risk that corporate Josh Sawyer is willing to gamble on, is this unique game play vehicle that moves a mega million of units, Obsidian can market what other corporate entities can't even envision.

Obsidian can do this with less liability because diverse communities of FANS CAPITALIZED IT! We all paid for this PoE. We are in on the risk too. Feel lucky?

Enjoy the social engineering!


Follow the money. Not the offer of new gameplay, that was not central to the heady mix of Kick-s sales metaphor.

Go to the bottom line of the JS quote. The remark about 'moving units', shows PoE's real spiritual roots appear to be B'Soft and B'o Ware mega unit sales.

I'm fine with that. Like to see the gamble pay off. JS does ^Star Wars^! I am content to read about anybody's bigger game. 'Enjoy' the smell of social engineering in the morning!

Maybe we'll have that hostage syndrome, and come to respect Obsidian … the morning after.

It's the call (hook) of nostalgia for BG et al that Obsidian may or may not choose to justify. So MANY primrose paths laid out! No BG / IWD pea under the moving shells!

Let Obsidian and its corporate representatives blow it all off, because those non humans driven by different tropes, and also easy victims of manipulation, that's their problem, not Obsidian's.

SOL. Obsidian's got your JACK! It ain't coming back!

AAA Obsidian can now throw off the false colors of 'indie' and join it's corporate brothers in arms in 'moving units' with pavlovian elegance.

Pass the Doritoes!


How will Feargus Urquhart market any future Obsidian Kickstarter?

I recall a line of marketing hubris years ago about the opportunity of becoming some one's bitch, is that the message I can extrapolate from the PoE Kickstarter saga?

Try this: "Obsidian's got your JACK! It ain't coming back!"



4too

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

He's arrogant and a bit of a douche, even go so far as distancing himself from his own work as though he is forced to make this game he would not choose to.

This is a very typical prima-donna developer. Nothing special or even marginally rare. I have seen a million of these in my career though crowd funded game development is a bit of a special public stage that seems to foster narcissistic tendencies it seems. In more formal, private houses, this behaviour is not generally seen in the public but it definitely exists. Most of these prima-donnas mature eventually and trade feigned omniscience for pragmatism, wisdom and a little humility. Time will tell.

 

[felipepepe]

Well, he got a golden chance now, and will have to back his words. How many developers wouldn't kill for the chance to be lead designer at a big independent studio, financed via Kickstarter, with no publisher to meddle and with greenlight to create their own system?

Obsidian always escaped harsh criticism via excuses... short development time, reused engine, staff changes, publisher demands, no support for QA, etc... There's no one to blame now, time to put a fucking great game where his mouth is.

EDIT: Who am I kidding, Sawyer already has an excuse ready. This isn't his "dream game", it's aimed at IE fans. That's why he changed so many things and keeps saying how D&D sucks.

 

[Roguey]

PoE is obviously being created with goons and his Bad Game buddies in mind. The changes reflect criticisms they've often posted about. If they like it, and the sales are good enough, he's succeeded.

 

[TigerKnee]

Jay Barson and Matt Barton just debated this week in their posts if potions are useful for RPGs or not.

Where can I find and read this?

 

[Shannow]

Obsidian always escaped harsh criticism via excuses... short development time, reused engine, staff changes, publisher demands, no support for QA, etc...

They did?
That means my past criticism wasn't harsh? Why were all the fanboys so fucking butthurt then?
PoE will probably be an ok game with some serious issues. I predict something that has better writing than past IE games (at least better than the BGs), but is worse "mechanics"wise and overall less "fun". (Probably still OE's best game.) The OE Defense Squat will still downplay any issues others might have with the game. 1-2 years after release they may start accepting some weaknesses, but that's it. Every single OE game so far was at best decent, many not even that. Writing was overall better than their competitors', but stories were often even derpier, just more convoluted. Gamplay-wise the games were mostly trainwrecks. They're still loved on the codex. Many of the appologists don't just set different priorities/preferences than me (which is perfectly valid) they're sometimes in outright denial of issues. I don't see why this behavior should change with the release of PoE. If Volly has ever been right about anything, it is fanboys.

One of the reasons I rarely bother chipping in into these discussions, is because they're often held in a vacuum. People talk about balance, fun and criticisms of D&D without being concrete.
E.G.:
As a system for cRPGs I hate D&D. (It can be fun and so far I've not seen many systems that provide better gameplay, but it still has massive issues, IMO.) And I don't think it can be fixed, I think it requires a whole new system.
Sawyer hates D&D, doesn't think it can be fixed and requires a whole new system.
So we have the same opinion? Hell no, his main issue (at least if I follow Roguey's genda setting) seems to be that different classes prioritise different attributes, the classes are not balanced at every level and every situation and there are many trash-options in feats and so on. While I'd treat stats very differently, I consider priorising certain stats for certain classes a non-issue. And different power curves for different levels/situations is actually very positive, IMO. Trash-options one could discuss, but often I see the issue more in game design, where certain skills are not used (enough) to be worth focussing on. But that'd be less of a system- and more of a design-issue.
Similar stuff can then be said for balance and fun. Quite pointless discussing it without concrete examples, IMO.

 

[Cosmo]

He's saying you guys are insignificant and you are.

What a cunt... But you should know that, right ?

Heh, Sawyer's enchantment system disagrees with you. Remember, even the shittiest weapon in the game can be enchanted and behave like top weapons, and every weapon is supposed to be equally BALANCED and viable. Also, I'm not convinced that PoE can be beaten solo. For starters, the only way to remove party members is by killing them. Then, there's BALANCE, specifically designed to avoid any kind of cheesing...

Only you were talking about self imposed challenges, and in PoE you can very well fight with only unenchanted weapons if that's how you get your kicks. No difference at all.
As for PvP, the human factor makes it chaotic by nature : those flaws hardly show in PvE, where you're faced with the game's design without interference.

 

[HiddenX]

PoE is obviously being created with goons and his Bad Game buddies in mind.

Sawyer hates D&D, doesn't think it can be fixed and requires a whole new system.

If this is true, then

Mr. Sawyer doesn't like his main customer base (Goldbox, BG veterans)
Mr. Sawyer is trying to create an easier version of D&D that can be understand by casuals, is more forgiving and not so much into class restrictions/diversity - with less stats, skils, etc.

hmmm - superb plan... I think there will be all kinds of flashy awesome buttons (all listed in the one-page manual)

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

 

[felipepepe]

Jay Barson and Matt Barton just debated this week in their posts if potions are useful for RPGs or not.

Where can I find and read this?

http://mattchat.us/?p=773
http://rampantgames.com/blog/?p=7803
http://mattchat.us/?p=783

Matt always strikes me as someone really bad at gaming...

Only you were talking about self imposed challenges, and in PoE you can very well fight with only unenchanted weapons if that's how you get your kicks. No difference at all.
As for PvP, the human factor makes it chaotic by nature : those flaws hardly show in PvE, where you're faced with the game's design without interference.

Yeah, I can also play PoE only with my left hand, or turn off the monitor... but that's a shitty self-imposed challenge. Stuff like only crossbows, soul level 1, soloing, using bad classes, etc... all change how you play the game, it alters your abilities and limits your resources. It's a very different thing from simply saying "I'll play the game dealing less damage". People don't do "leather armor only" runs, they do runs with classes that can only use leather armor. It's a key difference.

Regarding PvP, this "interference" happens only because the game allows it. DS has interesting stuff, like "hyper mode" - fighting under 30% health and with a dot over you, for insane damage. That's a really cool trade off between power and defense, that you can also use to defeat tough enemies and bosses in PvE, and it isn't cheap cheesing.

If PoE had PvP, it would be the most boring thing ever, because you don't have as many meaningful variables. Team A has +5% more damage, and Team B spells are 8% longer, hurray. On the other hand, PvP with Baldur's Gate's hard counters would be really interesting....

 

[Overboard]

Just think about it, how long has it been since the last Cliff Bleszinski?

Not long enough, frankly.

 

[Cosmo]

Yeah, I can also play PoE only with my left hand, or turn off the monitor... but that's a shitty self-imposed challenge. Stuff like only crossbows, soul level 1, soloing, using bad classes, etc... all change how you play the game, it alters your abilities and limits your resources. It's a very different thing from simply saying "I'll play the game dealing less damage". People don't do "leather armor only" runs, they do runs with classes that can only use leather armor. It's a key difference.

You're still trying to bend things backwards to avoid admitting the obvious : all of those things suppose you consciously refrain yourself from taking advantage of a lot of options freely provided by the game. It ensues that these limits are self-imposed. Maybe it pains you to admit it, but there's no way around that fact.
Also, your jab at what PoE multiplayer would be is a moot point, as it doesn't exist. I too could say anything about imaginary things.

 

[felipepepe]

Sorry, but you're trying to bend things backwards to avoid admitting the obvious : all of those things suppose you consciously limit yourself from taking advantage of a options that the game freely provides. These limits are self-imposed. Maybe it pains you to admit it, but theres's no way around that fact.

As I said, there's a key difference: it changes how you play the game.

If you play Fallout as a pacifist, you'll have the challenge of finding ways to avoid combat at all times,
If you play Fallout with a dumb character, you won't be able to solve things through dialog,
Dark Souls with fist weapons, you will have a pathetic reach and no shield,
Dark Souls at SL 1 heavily limits your equipment,
Playing with trash classes also limits your equipment and skills,
etc..

What kind of self-imposed challenge in PoE you can do that changes gameplay? Every character can use all items and skills. The only interesting thing to do would be a solo run, but I repeat, I think it isn't possible with PoE's BALANCED system.

 

[Gozma]

I liked the guy a lot better in the mid 2000s when his design proclamations obviously had no outlet because of the AAA chokehold and I think his mindset was born in that time. Now there are a lot of ways to make tightly designed little speedboat games for moderate-sized audiences on small budgets and Sawyer is still working on save-and-reload/RTwP content barge games that can't make anything of all the little design filigrees and decorations he puts on them.

 

[Cosmo]

Sorry, but you're trying to bend things backwards to avoid admitting the obvious : all of those things suppose you consciously limit yourself from taking advantage of a options that the game freely provides. These limits are self-imposed. Maybe it pains you to admit it, but theres's no way around that fact.

As I said, there's a key difference: it changes how you play the game.

If you play Fallout as a pacifist, you'll have the challenge of finding ways to avoid combat at all times,
If you play Fallout with a dumb character, you won't be able to solve things through dialog,
Dark Souls with fist weapons, you will have a pathetic reach and no shield,
Dark Souls at SL 1 heavily limits your equipment,
Playing with trash classes also limits your equipment and skills,
etc..

What kind of self-imposed challenge in PoE you can do that changes gameplay? Every character can use all items and skills. The only interesting thing to do would be a solo run, but I repeat, I think it isn't possible with PoE's BALANCED system.

That's ridiculous, did those things exist in the IE games, which are the inpiration of this games ? No. You're trying to fit things where they don't belong. And i also suspect you have a partially imaginary notion of what balance is (perfect balance is a goal for designers, players will always test the limits of the game).
What's more, pacifist gamestyle is encouraged by the absence of XP for combat (from what i've seen, it doesn't seems impossible to stealth/talk your way through the game), and i'm not talking about the hardcore and iron man options : don't these change gameplay ? As for SL 1 in DS it doesn't change gameplay at all, it's still the same combat based on the same moves, but harder. You're deluding yourself.

 

[TigerKnee]

http://mattchat.us/?p=773
http://rampantgames.com/blog/?p=7803
http://mattchat.us/?p=783

Matt always strikes me as someone really bad at gaming...

The part where he boasts that not using potions makes him hardcore and good at RPGs makes me laugh.

Jay's article was more interesting. Kind of a shame his actual RPG isn't that great so he can't put those thoughts about consumables into practice.

 

[felipepepe]

That's ridiculous, did those things exist in the IE games, which are the inpiration of this games ? No. You're trying to fit things where they don't belong. And i also suspect you have a partially imaginary notion of what balance is (perfect balance is a goal for designers, players will always test the limits of the game).

First, my point was that games like Dark Souls proved that Sawyer's statement about how "trash options are bullshit" was a huge stupidity. From your sudden move to "but IE didn't do that", I take that you agree that some games had great "trash options" that provided a lot of fun. So my original point was proven.

Second, soloing in IE is one of the coolest self-imposed challenges of all. Every class plays differently and has access to different equipment. You can't just give plate mails and 2-handed swords to everyone, like in PoE.

Instead of empty statements like calling my notions imaginary, tell me where they are wrong. Sawyer is balancing his game so that you can't cheese, and the way XP works (can't grind, magically increases with party menbers) all point against solo runs.

What's more, pacifist gamestyle is encouraged by the absence of XP for combat (from what i've seen, it doesn't seems impossible to stealth/talk your way through the game), and i'm not talking about the hardcore and iron man options : don't these change gameplay ?

Pacifist gamestyle is "encouraged" by boring battles and lack of rewards. Why should I waste time and resources in a boring fight against beetles that won't give anything, not even XP? That's fucking bad design, players are skipping pointless content in a banal way, simply pressing the stealth button, not outsmarting them.

In Fallout I can be a silver-tongued guy, infiltrate Navarro and get a power armor very early on, without shedding any blood. And I'll have a lot of fun being kicked around by the Enclave Sargent, as there's extra content for pacifists. PoE "pacifism" is doing the same thing as a combat character, but without the filler content that PoE fights are.

Hardcore and Iron Man options are great, but this is not what we're debating here, they are just a glorified difficulty setting. In some games the Hard mode always enforce permadeath, PoE jsut allows for more customization.

As for SL 1 in DS it doesn't change gameplay at all, it's still the same combat based on the same moves, but harder. You're deluding yourself.

You never played DS SL1, did you? It completely locks your access to tons of weapons and spells. And those are what define your play-style. You have to use stuff like Reinforced Club, or the Dark Hand. And those have specific movesets. More over, you don't have access to any 100% shields, and that together with SL 1 low health almost makes shield useless. Those are huge changes. Try playing SL1 one day, and I doubt you'll ever say that again.