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Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

Cosmo

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He only seems like a self appointed authority because he's the only one trying to build a constructive thought about CRPGs.
BULLSHIT! Why, because he posted on Kotaku and constantly talks about how he hates D&D? Because Roguey quotes him every 5 seconds? There are many others expressing their opinion and debating as well.

Craig Stern has his rants about why deterministic attacks are better than % rolls. Jay Barson and Matt Barton just debated this week in their posts if potions are useful for RPGs or not. VD hosted a series of roundtables at Iron Tower, with great debates from various developers. Styg comes here to debate with us how he's changing his XP system to something different. The guys behind M&M X made blog posts about every decision they made for their game, and many other devs do the same. The list goes on and on...

Yeah yeah, calm down, he's the only high profile (that is to say non-indie, at the head of expensive projects) to do that to my knowledge. Beside, who else can you cite from memory other than Stern? Are there really a lot ?
Point is, most other Devs do marketing when speaking about games. Not Sawyer, even if you don't agree with him (and let me assure you, i don't agree with everything he says).
 

felipepepe

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You have to understand that AAA corporations are moving away from the communities and from individuals. Individuals are bad, people get attached to them, instead of the brand. You can only release one "David Gaider" RPG every 2-3 years, but you can make as many "BioWare - Masters of Writing!" games as you want. So they clip dev's wings, they don't let them stand out too much. Just think about it, how long has it been since the last Cliff Bleszinski?

Sawyer has the privileged position of being at Obsidian, that doesn't care for this. I contacted many old time devs to write for my book, and A LOT of them had to decline due "their new overlords", as one of them said.
 

Cosmo

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Sawyer has the privileged position of being at Obsidian, that doesn't care for this. I contacted many old time devs to write for my book, and A LOT of them had to decline due "their new overlords", as one of them said.

So what, we have the chance to at last hear a dev talk openly about his gameplay philosophy and that's a bad thing ?
Now it's you that don't understand that on any field you can't move forward without open debate and the controversies that come with it. And Sawyer talking about his craft, rationally and point by point, definitely goes in that direction.
 

felipepepe

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The problem is not Sawyer talking, he can say whatever he wants. The problem is that other devs can't/don't reply. Either they are "indies" and no one cares, or they are held back by their corporate overlords. Or they simply don't care. Sawyer stands out not by merit, but by lack of oposition.

Take this what Sawyer quote at Kotaku:

It is now 2014 and, friends, I am here to tell you that trash options are bullshit.

Anyone familiar with the Dark Souls community can tell that's bullshit. They have pages and pages of debates and live streams of people playing the game at Soul Level 1, only with Crossbows, Naked, using those shitty fist weapons, etc... it's part of why the game is still being replayed today. But do you think that Hidetaka Miyazaki cares about what that baka no gaijin is ranting about at Kotaku, of all places? They prove him wrong by their work, not words.

Sawyer said a loooooooot of words, but he failed so far to make them work.
 

ZagorTeNej

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You have to understand that AAA corporations are moving away from the communities and from individuals. Individuals are bad, people get attached to them, instead of the brand. You can only release one "David Gaider" RPG every 2-3 years, but you can make as many "BioWare - Masters of Writing!" games as you want. So they clip dev's wings, they don't let them stand out too much. Just think about it, how long has it been since the last Cliff Bleszinski?

Sawyer has the privileged position of being at Obsidian, that doesn't care for this. I contacted many old time devs to write for my book, and A LOT of them had to decline due "their new overlords", as one of them said.

Yeah, I get that. The point I'm trying to make is even if they don't talk about it as much or prioritize it every game dev cares about game balance to some degree. No one is actively trying to insert trap builds, useless skills, classes, weapon groups etc. in the game, it's more that it happens as a consequence of trying to make a complex system and include as many options/cool things as possible (be it in the way of skills, items, talents/abilities etc. ).
 

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
I had a bunch of other people to reply to, and I will probably get around to that later, but when I saw this I instantly forgot about everything else.

Exactly what i said : why would he feel beholden to crybabies whose only motto is "you did everything wrong" ?

580c716cdd.png


Are you fucking serious, Cosmo? Are you kidding me right now? Are you actually fucking serious here? Are you shitting me? Jesus tittyfucking Christ on a shitbiscuit, you're defending Sawyer from people saying the exact same shit the man himself indulges in.
 

Infinitron

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Another problem with talking about balance in AAAs is that it would reveal the degree to which their game design is compromised to dumb things down for a larger audience.

I still think they should try to do it, though.


Context?
 

Cosmo

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I had a bunch of other people to reply to, and I will probably get around to that later, but when I saw this I instantly forgot about everything else.

Exactly what i said : why would he feel beholden to crybabies whose only motto is "you did everything wrong" ?

580c716cdd.png


Are you fucking serious, Cosmo? Are you kidding me right now? Are you actually fucking serious here? Are you shitting me? Jesus tittyfucking Christ on a shitbiscuit, you're defending Sawyer from people doing the exact same shit the man himself indulges in.

Instead of that, you should have quoted the long answer. He's being cocky to ellicit controversy, but as Felipepe said a lot of other dev can't be bothered to think about these things so in the end he's not that wrong. So i tell you again, post the long answer so we can judge.

Anyone familiar with the Dark Souls community can tell that's bullshit. They have pages and pages of debates and live streams of people playing the game at Soul Level 1, only with Crossbows, Naked, using those shitty fist weapons, etc... it's part of why the game is still being replayed today. But do you think that Hidetaka Miyazaki cares about what that baka no gaijin is ranting about at Kotaku, of all places? They prove him wrong by their work, not words.

Sawyer said a loooooooot of words, but he failed so far to make them work.

But are these still trash options in a game whose core principle is difficulty ? I'm not sure.
 

Blaine

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Yeah? Guess what? The "crybabies" you mention largely have long answers, too.

I actually have to walk out the door here, but the long answer may be later on in that same thread. I've read this all before years ago, which is actually how I know about it. I've discussed it before here on the Codex, too.
 

Cosmo

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Yeah? Guess what? The "crybabies" you mention largely have long answers, too.

I actually have to walk out the door here, but the long answer may be later on in that same thread. I've read this all before years ago, which is actually how I know about it. I've discussed it before here on the Codex, too.

What do you want me to say, you quoted a message saying that his actual point would be exposed later, all the time considering same post as a self-contained point.
 

felipepepe

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But are these still trash options in a game whose core principle is difficulty ? I'm not sure.
What? The goal of the game is to kill everything; a weapon that sucks at killing stuff obviously is a trash choice.

Challenging yourself to beat DS with fist weapons is no different than challenging yourself to play as a pacifist in Fallout or going solo in Baldur's Gate. You're trying to reach the ending in a intentionally convoluted way, just for the FUN of it.
 

Cosmo

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Let people make up their mind :

"Basically I think that most designers are overly concerned with what's come before when they sit down to write CRPG mechanics. When looking at mechanics that typically go into CRPGs, it's pretty hard to reverse-engineer a plan of intent. The conclusion I'm usually left with is that they wanted the system to "look like an RPG" on a UI screen. They have classes and stats and skills and skill/talent trees and a ton of derived stats when probably not all of that is necessary.

I believe that game designers, whether working in the RPG genre or otherwise, should establish what they want the player to be doing within the world. That is, they must ask themselves what they want the core activities of the player to be. Within those activities, the designer can find ways to allow growth over time in a variety of ways. How they want that growth to occur and what sort of choices they want to force the player to make -- that's what should drive the design of the advancement/RPG system.

Instead it usually seems like most designers sit down and say, "Well what are the ability scores going to be?"

RE: Moving units: Nobody cares enough about the advancement mechanics to make or break sales. Mass Effect and Oblivion both show that you can have extremely simple (from a player perspective) advancement mechanics and as long as people enjoy the core gameplay, the apparent simplicity/non-traditional nature of the mechanics doesn't matter. "


It's basically a wordier "other games all get it wrong" though, not much else.

No, because he gives a reason : that is to say, CRPG devs should ask themselves what gameplay the want before emulating aspects of other (C)RPGs. Personnally i don't see that as shocking.

But are these still trash options in a game whose core principle is difficulty ? I'm not sure.
What? The goal of the game is to kill everything; a weapon that sucks at killing stuff obviously is a trash choice.

Challenging yourself from beating DS with fist weapons is no different than challenging yourself to play as a diplomat in Fallout/Arcanum or going solo in Baldur's Gate.

I stand by my word : the basic principle of DS's gameplay is challenge, so those options are not really trash in this particular context.
What's more important, you talk about self-imposed challenges, not those resulting of bad game design. I can reassure you, you'll be able to only take the shittiest loot if you want challenge in PoE, or play the game solo. More seriously i find it strange that you would take DS as an example, a game that Sawyer liked and is a paragon of balance in terms of character development.
 
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HiddenX

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Balancing a CRPG has a lot do of which kind of CRPG we are talking.
I'm not a game developer but a mathematician and software/database engineer, here's my point:

There's no easy magic formula to balance all kind of different CRPGs once and for all.

Why? At least these game elements have a great effect on how to balance a game:

Is there some kind of respawning or not? (matters only if you get XP for kills or you get loot)
Is the game working with linear or nonlinear exploration?
Is the game working with any kind of auto-leveling of enemies or not?
Is the party size variable or not?
Is gear random or hand placed over the gameworld? (again leveled or not)?
How is looting implemented (generated, leveled, hand-placed,...)?
How is trading implemented (generated, leveled, hand-placed,...)?
What kind of attribute/skill/level/XP system is used for character progression?
For what actions do you get XP?
...

Depending on the game design decisions to the above questions you create completety different game engine models.
Each of these models can be completely different mathematically and each one needs it's own balancing and finetuning.
 

Cosmo

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Balancing a CRPG has a lot do of which kind of CRPG we are talking.

Depending on the game design decisions to the above questions you create completety different game engine models.
Each of these models can be completely different mathematically and each one needs it's own balancing and finetuning.

Very close to what Sawyer says in that quote when you think of it.
 

HiddenX

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I may agree somewhat with his version of telling the problems of how to design a CRPG, but I don't agree with his solutions ;)

I said it earlier:
Unnecessary skills can be fun, too.
Perfectly balanced CRPGs would kill most of the fun and diversity in CRPG gaming.
 
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Cosmo

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"Balance" can mean so many things... I got a strong suspicion that when in doubt, people take the worst possible meaning it could have to themselves and stick with it.
 
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ZagorTeNej

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No, because he gives a reason : that is to say, CRPG devs should ask themselves what gameplay the want before emulating aspects of other (C)RPGs. Personnally i don't see that as shocking.

That's kinda of funny in the context of how in PoE Sawyer half asedlly slapped attributes over an already functional system at the end instead of building it from the ground up with them as an integral part. Cargo culting because of backer pressure I guess, IE games had 6 simulationist attributes so PoE has to have the same (in name atleast).
 

HiddenX

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If "balance" means: extreme autoleveling, less stats, skills,... (= less character diversity), equalizing different character classes and their efficiency, artificial money sinks, casual gameplay,... then I hate it.

If "balance" means: challenging game experience over the whole game, no filler combat, hand placed loot, no/or only moderate enemy leveling because of intelligent enemy positioning, non broken trading, different characters lead to a different game experience ... then I like it.
 

Roguey

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This thread. :lol:

The "Other developers can't talk" is funny considering a certain Tim Cain works at Obsidian and there's nothing stopping him from talking about the balance failures of Fallout and Arcanum.

Likewise various other RPG developers who have left the industry.

If something is problematic from a balance point of view he's happy to rip it out of the game. When someone complains that they had fun with it in the past he informs them in his usual tactful manner that no, they didn't really have fun with it.
He said the opposite of this.
http://games.on.net/2014/03/if-you-...rnitys-josh-sawyer-on-dealing-with-grognards/
Sawyer warned however that other elements, what he described as “GM-sucker-punch kind of stuff”, were being carefully filtered by the team because “the vast majority” of Pillars of Eternity’s backers simply won’t enjoy them.

“Combat encounters that can only be completed a certain way or (situations where) you have to have one of these characters, or you have to have these two characters,” said Sawyer, “those ‘gotcha!’ moments that some gamers love, well… God bless you I guess, but we’re not gonna do that.”

Sawyer laughs as he explains that even the most hardcore grognards will be the first to acknowledge that some of the things they’re asking for are just completely unacceptable.

“I don’t even think those memories (they have) are necessarily rose-tinted,” he says. “They’ll straight up admit that they like stuff that’s really grognard-ey, and they don’t care. That’s fair enough.”
 

Roguey

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Requires context. :)

"'Maybe the grognards like it, but for everyone else it’s kind of frustrating and so we try to get away from that as much as possible.'"

He's saying you guys are insignificant and you are. :P
 

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