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Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

Shadenuat

Arcane
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Russia
Strategic are the attribute/skill/feat etc choices at levelup, pre-buffing is absolutely tactical
Nah buffs do take role in strategic party building. Like who is going to buff your pet, what spells, class, how many levels, how many spell slots, etc.

Without it, classes work more in isolation from each other.

The truth, however, is that pre buffing is a consequence of freedom of application of a magical system in the world when player wants it; not when designer wants it.
That freedom holds more intrinsic value in itself for the player than any banalce.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
1,870,558
Ahhh no,it just means that you are shit at the game lol.
So i take it that you want RPG where you could just every single fight without dying

Do I have to dig up that screenshot when we busted you playing on Story Mode?

You can't just quantify "waste of time"

Yes I can. There is a special device invented just for that purpose, it's called the clock.
 

Atchodas

Augur
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
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Two observations about prebuffing and PoE:

1) As people have said before, the game actually has prebuffing. Food and modals are effects that you apply on yourself before combat. What they have in common - they're effects that are long-term or permanent. One thing I can imagine an RPG offering is a prebuff with a short duration that only starts counting down when combat begins, so there's no bullshit where you have to make sure you cast multiple buffs in the right order to maximize their duration and then go immediately into combat.

2) Something I think people might be doing is unnecessarily conflating all forms of "out-of-combat effects" with prebuffing. Remember, in PoE it's not just that you can't buff yourself with a beneficial status effect outside of combat - if you're poisoned during a fight, the poison effect disappears once combat is over. I can imagine an RPG that removes most prebuffing but keeps the "post-buffing" spells that deal with the damage you took during fights. I think that would retain the most important part of the strategic survival element of roleplaying that is lost when you adopt a strict combat/non-combat separation.

In PoE games you just "pre buff" at the start of the combat while your tank is pulling enemies from further away like in some MMO
This is even worse than prebuffing right before combat like in PF:K
 
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fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
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Ahhh no,it just means that you are shit at the game lol.
So i take it that you want RPG where you could just every single fight without dying

Do I have to dig up that screenshot when we busted you playing on Story Mode?

You can't just quantify "waste of time"

Yes I can. There is a special device invented just for that purpose, it's called the clock.
Said the guy that couldn't win a goblin fight without going full pre buff lol. What a sore loser. Meh,remove pre buffs and made enemies easier to kill,i just lost in BG because i didn't prebuff and kobolds showed up waaah.
 

Daidre

Arcane
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Messages
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Location
Samara
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Regarding POE2, I really don't know what the market wants any more, but the relative success of Kingmaker makes me wonder whether "traditionalist" rather than "progressive" fantasy is just more marketable.

Imho, biggest attraction for P:K is Pathfinder (more like D&D 3.5) itself and that Owlcats never tried to "reimagine, rebalance or improve" the system they decided to work with. They took it "as is" with tons classes, archetypes and spells and put it into game with trademark combat design from "Sadistic Russian GM" where all this abundance has its uses.

So esoteric terms as "style of fantasy" has little to to do with P:K relative success. People could be surprisingly forgiving about writing and setting when studio cared more about making the game fun instead of trying to figure out what "market wants".
 
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PrK

Savant
Patron
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Messages
249
I'm very into cock and ball torture
Why, though? Why would you want a feature that is automatic and adds nothing other than pointless clicks or having to write your own scripts to automate the pointless clicking?

I for one greatly enjoyed Wasteland's macro function combined with the freedom to use your skills in any way you wanted.
 

Atchodas

Augur
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,047
People could be surprisingly forgiving about writing and setting when studio cared more about making the game fun

In general nobody cares about writing in games except some storyfags who represent less than 1% of actual customer base

On other hand "fun" sells and sells really well
 

user

Savant
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
866
It's just that in a real world most of military campaigns consist of marching, foraging for food and sitting around waiting for something to happen. Months could pass before you had to "prebuff" your soldiers, whereas in a game you have to do it constatly every couple of minutes. It's the repetitive nature of doing it over and over that gets annoying and absurd quite quickly.

Lies again, it is well known that during military campaigns, especially offensive ones and during that era, soldiers buffed themselves in most battles by raping and pillaging nearby stuff, boom, next argument please.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
1,870,558
Ahhh no,it just means that you are shit at the game lol.
So i take it that you want RPG where you could just every single fight without dying

Do I have to dig up that screenshot when we busted you playing on Story Mode?

You can't just quantify "waste of time"

Yes I can. There is a special device invented just for that purpose, it's called the clock.
Said the guy that couldn't win a goblin fight without going full pre buff lol. What a sore loser. Meh,remove pre buffs and made enemies easier to kill,i just lost in BG because i didn't prebuff and kobolds showed up waaah.

I didn't play BG in decades and certainly never posted about it on the Codex. I see that you're not just playing games on Story Mode but also shitposting on the Codex in Story Mode.
 

Atchodas

Augur
Joined
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Messages
1,047
Lies again, it is well known that during military campaigns, especially offensive ones and during that era, soldiers buffed themselves in most battles by raping and pillaging nearby stuff, boom, next argument please.

Quote from wikipedia :

"During World War II, amphetamine and methamphetamine were used extensively by Allied and Axis forces for their stimulant and performance-enhancing effects."
 

user

Savant
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
866
Lies again, it is well known that during military campaigns, especially offensive ones and during that era, soldiers buffed themselves in most battles by raping and pillaging nearby stuff, boom, next argument please.

Quote from wikipedia :

"During World War II, amphetamine and methamphetamine were used extensively by Allied and Axis forces for their stimulant and performance-enhancing effects."

+1 Even more buffing micromanaging examples in rl.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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It's just that in a real world most of military campaigns consist of marching, foraging for food and sitting around waiting for something to happen. Months could pass before you had to "prebuff" your soldiers, whereas in a game you have to do it constatly every couple of minutes. It's the repetitive nature of doing it over and over that gets annoying and absurd quite quickly.

Lies again, it is well known that during military campaigns, especially offensive ones and during that era, soldiers buffed themselves in most battles by raping and pillaging nearby stuff, boom, next argument please.

Raping old women is actually a clever military strategy - RPG Codex.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
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Messages
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Bulgaria
Ahhh no,it just means that you are shit at the game lol.
So i take it that you want RPG where you could just every single fight without dying

Do I have to dig up that screenshot when we busted you playing on Story Mode?

You can't just quantify "waste of time"

Yes I can. There is a special device invented just for that purpose, it's called the clock.
Said the guy that couldn't win a goblin fight without going full pre buff lol. What a sore loser. Meh,remove pre buffs and made enemies easier to kill,i just lost in BG because i didn't prebuff and kobolds showed up waaah.

I didn't play BG in decades and certainly never posted about it on the Codex. I see that you're not just playing games on Story Mode but also shitposting on the Codex in Story Mode.
Yes,such pride for not playing BG and whining about muh prebuffing. Also story mode is wasted on you cuck, Reinhardt does a better job and using the joke lol. You are just spamming as a retard.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,555
Location
Bulgaria
It's just that in a real world most of military campaigns consist of marching, foraging for food and sitting around waiting for something to happen. Months could pass before you had to "prebuff" your soldiers, whereas in a game you have to do it constatly every couple of minutes. It's the repetitive nature of doing it over and over that gets annoying and absurd quite quickly.

Lies again, it is well known that during military campaigns, especially offensive ones and during that era, soldiers buffed themselves in most battles by raping and pillaging nearby stuff, boom, next argument please.

Raping old women is actually a clever military strategy - RPG Codex.
It is pretty valid strategy,it ended up with you down the line :smug:.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
I can get your point about a simple recursive click being pointless. Because if it's just that and it's nothing you actually have to think about, even a bit, it is indeed just a pointless recursive click. But why remove that click and bake it into the character, and not give that click some tactical element instead? Why streamline that element instead of giving it purpose and deepening it?
They did give it a purpose, by removing pre-buffing and making buffs only castable in combat.

That is only ever true for a sorcerer type class in which case it is indeed always preferable (as long as it is a universally positive buff) to pre-cast a spell because you have a permanent spell book.

But sorcerers are boring and for classes that make full use of vancian casting it is an actual choice whether and in which way to pre-buff, again because of limited duration as well as slots.
Spell books also aren't permanent in PoE (with the exception of chanters and ciphers, I have other problems with these classes), so I don't see how that's relevant. You always choose between different spells, whether those are buffs, damaging spells, debuffs, CC, or whatever, and it eats a spell slot.


It is not a feature,it is an option. Nobody is forcing you to prebuff. Why would you like less options in a RPG??? From your logic,then why do we have to attack enemies instead of having a full on party AI doing?
Like I said, choosing to not prebuff because it's tedious and purposefully gimping yourself is not a defense of the system, it's an indictment. What I'm advocating for is less automation.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,558
Yes,such pride for not playing BG and whining about muh prebuffing. Also story mode is wasted on you cuck, Reinhardt does a better job and using the joke lol. You are just spamming as a retard.

Imagine playing games on the easiest difficulty and thinking you're winning fights because of your superb strategy at prebuffing.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
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Messages
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Like I said, choosing to not prebuff because it's tedious and purposefully gimping yourself is not a defense of the system, it's an indictment. What I'm advocating for is less automation.
Your way of thinking is broken. The choice is to buff if you think the fight is going to be too hard for the normal attacks. When you see the big shadow dragon in BG2,you are well aware that there will be a reckoning,you don't have to be a genius to get it that it is time for some buffz. You must be a retard to constantly spam buff for every single fight. Don't lump everyone in your mental category lol!
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Bulgaria
Yes,such pride for not playing BG and whining about muh prebuffing. Also story mode is wasted on you cuck, Reinhardt does a better job and using the joke lol. You are just spamming as a retard.

Imagine playing games on the easiest difficulty and thinking you're winning fights because of your superb strategy at prebuffing.
Fuck you are dumb,you just can't attack my arguments and keep on spamming that. Maybe you two with lacrymas could go and make your own thread about meh prebuffing is evil in games i didn't play.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
Your way of thinking is broken. The choice is to buff if you think the fight is going to be too hard for the normal attacks. When you see the big shadow dragon in BG2,you are well aware that there will be a reckoning,you don't have to be a genius to get it that it is time for some buffz. You must be a retard to constantly spam buff for every single fight. Don't lump everyone in your mental category lol!
Both systems have a choice when to buff, but one has drawbacks to buffing, the other doesn't, so what is the design justification for including it in the second case? What is the justification for not playing the system and buffing every fight? Because it's tedious? Why do you want your gameplay to be in any way tedious when there is another option while allowing for more tactical choices?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
People who accuse PoE of "balance" and that that "balance" is at the heart of the problem with the system don't know why balance exists in general methinks. It's not so much for the player, but for the encounter design. If you have 1 or 2 very overpowered builds, how do you balance the mobs? Do you balance them for the other builds or do you balance them for the overpowered builds because it's assumed you'll use them anyway? The point is consistent challenge, not stopping your fun. Where is the fun in steamrolling all opposition? Then you complain it's too easy.

I don't think the balance complaints aim at this particular thing. It's cool when every class is similarly useful. It's not cool if every class plays similarly. Why even have classes when fundamentally they're not very different from each other? Heck, most classless systems (Arcanum, Underrail) offer more gameplay variety with different builds than PoE does. If you wanna do damage you have to raise STR even when you're a wizard whose damage comes from spells... uuuh, okay? BALANCE, I guess.

Also, PoE's approach to balance is just boring. D&D is balanced, too. Yes, fighters are more powerful in the early game and wizards are more powerful in the late game, but 3E added feats which gave fighters some special abilities like cleave, too, making them a lot more useful in later levels. D&D had lots of iterations, and balance changes were made throughout the decades to keep every class fun. PoE forgets the fun part in its obsession to make everything balanced.

At release (apparently this has changed now with patches and the expansions, but I haven't played the game after 1.0 so I can't comment on that - and it's this first impression that put many people off) magic weapons had boring, trivial enchantments like +5% to damage and other boring shit like that. Meanwhile Baldur's Gate 2 had the Flail of Ages, the Vorpal Sword, there was even a fucking sword that talked to you.

A recent game where I enjoyed the combat is Divinity Original Sin. Even the sequel, which had some truly retarded design decisions which I didn't like, was fun to play because combat gave you lots of different abilities that were actually powerful and interesting. Yes, often they are OP - you can destroy an enemy's physical armor and keep him stunlocked with knockout arrows forever, for example. But the enemies also use the same abilities on you so it's actually fun to go against equally leveled enemy groups. Abilities are impactful and battle-changing.

Meanwhile PoE just has... "balanced" abilities. Everything feels very minor, there are no big fuck you spells, there's no resistance spells to cast upon your mage which the enemy mage then strips away layer by layer, no cool mage duels with a fucking demilich who throws insane spells at you while you try to counter them with your own. PoE, despite being magical high fantasy, felt more mundane to me than actual mundane no-magic settings such as Fallout.

It just didn't have anything that felt truly impactful. And impactful, fun stuff > balance.

2) For me it's not only the strategic element that is lost. It's immersion, suspension of disblief. I am a bloody wizard, but I can only cast that spell only when "inCombat = true". Do I have to be reminded every single time I open my spellbook that someone put that artificial restriction there in order to balance the game?
Immersion is misunderstood and frequently overrated. Sometimes it's beneficial to sacrifice ludonarrative coherence in favor of gameplay and there's nothing wrong with that if it's justified, which it is in the case of PoE's system. You can always think up a reason why mages can't cast outside of combat, you can only ever strengthen with magic when your adrenaline is high for example.

If you have to sacrifice ludonarrative coherence, you're retarded and suck at game design. The one who has to think up a reason for why magic is only available in combat isn't the player, it's the dev. The dev has to have an in-world explanation for why his magic system works that way. Just making it so for the sake of Holy Balance (TM) and then not bothering to explain it within the setting is lazy and incompetent.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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Funniest thing of all is that Josh appears to not have a clue why something he designed is good or bad. Poor guy, being a lead crushed him. Good designer to have around, I genuinely believe that, but a horrible lead.
 

Atchodas

Augur
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Messages
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Why for you buffing at start of every combat is superior to prebuffing right before the combat ? For me its same shit and I dont mind it either way I mean as long as there are buffs in game you will want to cast them as early as you can
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
Why for you buffing at start of every combat is superior to prebuffing right before the combat ?
Because it allows for the element of opportunity cost. When you are buffing in the middle of combat, you aren't doing whatever else you can be doing, whether that is attacking, healing, casting other spells (incl. other buffs). When you cast every buff pre-combat, you lose that layer.

JarlFrank Oh, don't get me wrong, one of my biggest criticisms of PoE's sytem is that classes are same-y, I've talked about this a few times. They didn't have enough of an imagination budget for 11 classes and the philosophy of "everyone can do everything" pigeon-holed the system to rotate around 3-4 archetypes, melee DPS, ranged DPS, caster and, if we are generous, tank. It's a classless system masquerading as a class-based one, it's quite perplexing. But given that Josh doesn't like class-based systems, not very surprising.
 

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