Game News Kingdoms of Amalur as big as Oblivion

[Luzur]

well, you cant LARP High Fantasy with gritty plague ridden english shanty towns with shit in the streets and murder every alley.

Bethesda know this and do Final Fantasy towns instead.

 

[PorkaMorka]

I don't understand this complaint about cities in games being too small compared to real life cities.

When you're looking for the guy who has the quest for wolf testicles do you really want to search through 300 unremarkable hovels, 20 coopers, chandlers, bakers, selling nothing you need, 15 taverns with no quests for you ?

It seems utterly pointless to put that in. In older games you could put a door with an event behind it that says "nothing down here but unremarkable residential areas" but that wouldn't work in 3d free roaming games, so cities basically have to be less than 50 buildings.

 

[Ruprekt]

Refayj's famous declaration, "There is but one city in the Imperial Province,--" may strike the citizens of the Colovian west as mildly insulting, until perhaps they hear the rest of the remark, which continues, "--but one city in Tamriel, but one city in the World; that, my brothers, is the city of the Cyrodiils." From the shore it is hard to tell what is city and what is Palace, for it all rises from the islands of the lake towards the sky in a stretch of gold. Whole neighborhoods rest on the jeweled bridges that connect the islands together. Gondolas and river-ships sail along the watery avenues of its flooded lower dwellings. Moth-priests walk by in a cloud of ancestors; House Guards hold exceptionally long daikatanas crossed at intersections, adorned with ribbons and dragon-flags; and the newly arrived Western legionnaires sweat in the humid air. The river mouth is tainted red from the tinmi soil of the shore, and river dragons rust their hides in its waters. Across the lake the Imperial City continues, merging into the villages of the southern red river and ruins left from the Interregnum.

The Emperor's Palace is a crown of sun rays, surrounded by his magical gardens. One garden path is known as Green Emperor Road-here, topiaries of the heads of past Emperors have been shaped by sorcery and can speak. When one must advise Tiber Septim, birds are drawn to the hedgery head, using their songs as its voice and moving its branches for the needed expressions.

The Imperial City was supposed to be Rome/Tenochtitlan/Venice with some oriental thrown in: majestic and alien with a population in six figures.

Not a medieval shithole.

 

[villain of the story]

I don't understand this complaint about cities in games being too small compared to real life cities.

When you're looking for the guy who has the quest for wolf testicles do you really want to search through 300 unremarkable hovels, 20 coopers, chandlers, bakers, selling nothing you need, 15 taverns with no quests for you ?

That you'd have to go through even just a few unremarkable buildings etc. completely randomly is a design failure forever in motion. Size of the city, buildings etc. has no relevance to the walk through of a quest where you're searching for someone or something. As pathetic it may sound (for RPGs), AssCreed 2 and Bro had the basic idea better than most everything else. The two games do so many things right that should have been standard practice in any open-world RPG.

 

[waywardOne]

Fucking pre-order bonus bullshit.

(makes all potion reagent locations known)

The other packs are, of course, uber combat items.

 

[Morgoth]

Game looks way too cartoony (the fuck is up with that anyway?), but I'm not completely writing it off as the team made some solid RTS games in the past so why not give them a chance with their first ARPG?

 

[JarlFrank]

Medieval city.

SURE LOOKS ABOUT THE SIZE OF OBLIVION "CITIES" TO ME RIGHT

 

[JarlFrank]

That you'd have to go through even just a few unremarkable buildings etc. completely randomly is a design failure forever in motion. Size of the city, buildings etc. has no relevance to the walk through of a quest where you're searching for someone or something. As pathetic it may sound (for RPGs), AssCreed 2 and Bro had the basic idea better than most everything else. The two games do so many things right that should have been standard practice in any open-world RPG.

True, the AssCreed games captured the feeling of Renaissance cities pretty well. And it's not like the same wouldn't work in an RPG. Oblivion already has many interior rooms that look like they're randomly generated or copypasted. Nobody bothers going into every single NPC home anyway, since there's nothing interesting there.

Also, if someone designs quests in a way that requires you to talk to every bum in the entire city, it's seriously fuck up design. Traditional quest recieving places are taverns, the marketplace, shopowners, and guilds, which aren't random buildings but easy to find by asking around and by looking at signs in front of the doors. I don't see why the fuck making a large city the size of, say, Firenze in AC2, would be in any way impractical in a first person RPG like the Elder Scrolls.

 

[Turjan]

Medieval city.

SURE LOOKS ABOUT THE SIZE OF OBLIVION "CITIES" TO ME RIGHT

Nuremberg was one of five cities that had reached more than 20,000 inhabitants in what is today Germany by the end of the Middle Ages. Most other cities, and there were hundreds, were pathetically small. Here is one city that, with about 6,000 inhabitants, still managed to be one of tne more influential ones and stayed independent until 1803. It looks far more typical for its time (the image is from 1588, but that's okay, as there are no actually medieval city images that don't look like unrealistic cartoons):

But on a different note, I agree with people who say that you should not try to transfer the size of a real city into a video game. That would be extremely tedious for the player. You just have to somewhat try to make your few houses feel like a city, and that's where Oblivion failed. The size of the settlements would be otherwise okay.

 

[JarlFrank]

Dortmund still looks larger and more interesting (landmarks etc) than any city of Oblivion.

And no, I don't see how making city as large as, say, Firenze in AC2, would make it tedious for the player, as long as you keep quests to certain places instead of having Jack Everyman living in his small house somewhere in the middle of city give you a quest in his own home.

Let's take a city of, say, the size of Forli or San Gimigiano in AC2. Not too large, but large enough and with some nice landmarks. Now, give the player a good map of the city that marks all the usual points of interest (guilds, shops, taverns). Have random strangers give you directions when you ask. And bang, you got a relatively large city which makes sense but isn't hard to navigate since all the points of interest are clearly marked.

The problem of Oblivion was that its cities were *too* small, and there weren't any proper districts as a real city would have, except maybe in the Imperial City, but even there it was unsatisfactory. What about a slum district, a district for the upper class, a central marketplace, a place where the manufactories are located, a university district, etc etc...

And there should definitely be blocks of more houses than just 3, unlike Oblivion. Morrowind was definitely better in that regard.

 

[Turjan]

Dortmund still looks larger and more interesting (landmarks etc) than any city of Oblivion.

Let's take a city of, say, the size of Forli or San Gimigiano in AC2. Not too large, but large enough and with some nice landmarks. Now, give the player a good map of the city that marks all the usual points of interest (guilds, shops, taverns). Have random strangers give you directions when you ask. And bang, you got a relatively large city which makes sense but isn't hard to navigate since all the points of interest are clearly marked.

I never played AC2, so cannot comment on that, but otherwise, we are in agreement. Having landmarks and places of function is what makes up a city. Oblivion did not have that.

The problem of Oblivion was that its cities were *too* small, and there weren't any proper districts as a real city would have, except maybe in the Imperial City, but even there it was unsatisfactory. What about a slum district, a district for the upper class, a central marketplace, a place where the manufactories are located, a university district, etc etc...

Indeed. Oblivion had some city elements, but they were used in a retarded way. The churches were put somewhere, but did not mark anything important. There were squares without function. Cheydinhal and Chorrol have the worst layouts in this regard. The Bruma layout had potential, but it was not used, either. I somehow have the feeling that most American designers have absolutely no idea what function the elements that make up a city actually fulfill, because they don't really have many traditional cities of their own. That's why your "medieval" cities always look like suburbia, which is probably how far the designers' experience goes.

And there should definitely be blocks of more houses than just 3, unlike Oblivion. Morrowind was definitely better in that regard.

Yup. Although they were mostly dead, Places like Balmora or Gnisis managed to evoke more of a city feel than anything in Oblivion.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Boremore Balmora is a bunch of houses next to each other. Gaysis Gnisis looks more like a temporary settlement.

Towns in Arena were big enough to look like towns, but weren't fun to navigate. I think Daggerfall was the same.

Pat of the problem with Oblivion cities not looking very functional is that they are "thematic" - Bruma is the nord, snowy town, Chorrol is the rural town, Bravil is the poor, dirty town, Anvil is the port town, etc.

They're all kind of shitty, really . Well, at least they aren't Fallout 3's Big Town.

 

[Turjan]

Boremore Balmora is a bunch of houses next to each other. Gnissi looks more like a temporary settlement..

Balmora has a business district around a square with attached transport hubs, a noble district, and the poorer part on the other side of the river. There is definitely much room for improvement (I used a small mod to have market stalls on the square), but there was at least a rudimentary idea of structure, unlike the amorphous goo you find in Oblivion.

Gnisis is very small, but it still has the temple in the center with merchant stalls and taverns at the square and the worker dwellings in the mountain slope to the north. I don't think it's supposed to be more than a small town, but it feels quite okay as such.

 

[Excidium]

I think huge cities are great as long as there's fast travel.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

most American designers have absolutely no idea what function the elements that make up a city actually fulfill, because they don't really have many traditional cities of their own.

no excuse why they can't look at the many urban planning rpg supplements available, which can be fine reads btw

of course the yahoos who play the game and get immersed up to their little minds don't even care

 

[Metro]

The problem of Oblivion was that its cities were *too* small, and there weren't any proper districts as a real city would have, except maybe in the Imperial City, but even there it was unsatisfactory. What about a slum district, a district for the upper class, a central marketplace, a place where the manufactories are located, a university district, etc etc...

If there's no interesting/unique content tied into all of that then it's pointless. I guess it's okay for 'immersion' sake but I don't play video games to LARP. Better to have half a dozen buildings where each is put to use in terms of story, content, and quests than half a dozen districts where maybe 20% of it has actual content.

 

[Wyrmlord]

14-16 century cities weren't made of 2 streets with 40 people living on them.

What is the difference between a village, a town, and a city?

The Imperial City was the only city in Oblivion. The rest were just strongholds, fortresses, manors, and castles with a collection of peasants near them.

 

[Excommunicator]

Stop arguing the technicalities BS. The imperial province with its capital city is the centre of the known world and not some backwater place. Combine that with the constant bragging about the size of their world before it came out, and any argument that even suggests they handled their town sizes in the right way is just apologetics. It was a crappy effort, just like everything else in it

 

[JarlFrank]

The problem of Oblivion was that its cities were *too* small, and there weren't any proper districts as a real city would have, except maybe in the Imperial City, but even there it was unsatisfactory. What about a slum district, a district for the upper class, a central marketplace, a place where the manufactories are located, a university district, etc etc...

If there's no interesting/unique content tied into all of that then it's pointless. I guess it's okay for 'immersion' sake but I don't play video games to LARP. Better to have half a dozen buildings where each is put to use in terms of story, content, and quests than half a dozen districts where maybe 20% of it has actual content.

Interestingly enough, a well-designed city which makes sense in its structure will probably lead to better quest design, too. Got a thieves guild quest? Well, the thieves guild will probably have its hideout in the poorer district, and send you to the rich people district for the quest because that's where the stuff worth stealing is located. Also, the rich quarters will have more guards than the poor quarters, so people who just want to go thieving will have a higher challenge but also higher reward chance in those.

Generally, once the city is planned out, placing characters and quests is much easier because you will be able to use the cities structure to your advantage.

 

[Luzur]

The problem of Oblivion was that its cities were *too* small, and there weren't any proper districts as a real city would have, except maybe in the Imperial City, but even there it was unsatisfactory. What about a slum district, a district for the upper class, a central marketplace, a place where the manufactories are located, a university district, etc etc...

If there's no interesting/unique content tied into all of that then it's pointless. I guess it's okay for 'immersion' sake but I don't play video games to LARP. Better to have half a dozen buildings where each is put to use in terms of story, content, and quests than half a dozen districts where maybe 20% of it has actual content.

Interestingly enough, a well-designed city which makes sense in its structure will probably lead to better quest design, too. Got a thieves guild quest? Well, the thieves guild will probably have its hideout in the poorer district, and send you to the rich people district for the quest because that's where the stuff worth stealing is located. Also, the rich quarters will have more guards than the poor quarters, so people who just want to go thieving will have a higher challenge but also higher reward chance in those.

Generally, once the city is planned out, placing characters and quests is much easier because you will be able to use the cities structure to your advantage.

BUT that detracts from AWESOME development time (like adding DRAGONS at every corner and Dual wielding), and besides the cons..err i mean mainstream crowd dont really care.

 

[SCO]

Reminds of Gothic 2 (that had some minimal thought put into it's small village).

I never felt that village insulted my intelligence, or bored me like Vivec or parts of the Baldur's Gates.



Boots of blinding speed were awesome though. Incline of quest rewards.

 

[Ruprekt]

 

[Metro]

Reminds of Gothic 2 (that had some minimal thought put into it's small village).

I never felt that village insulted my intelligence, or bored me like Vivec or parts of the Baldur's Gates.

Good examples of both ends of the spectrum. Granted from a story perspective Khorinis was just a small port city on an island so it didn't have to be as large as Vivec but they still made a fairly diverse setting where pretty much every building had some content in it (only exceptions were a few of the shacks in the slums). Vivec, meanwhile, was just obnoxiously large. Yes there were quests that involved certain portions of the cantons but just the sheer size and tedious nature of navigating it was bad design.

Funny enough in Gothic 3 the towns were just a set of generic buildings strung together. Sometimes quests were involved with looting and such but most of the quests in G3 were of the MMO variety and not very interesting. Mora Sul in Varant was a fucking nightmare. Doubly so if you wanted to liberate it. I get that it was the home of a big temple of Beliar but... just a lot of useless space so people would say... oh look at the size of it. Pretty much all of G3 suffered from that, even the wilderness. It's larger scale for scale sake without meaningful content.

 

[JarlFrank]

The problem with Vivec wasn't the size, but the maze-like structure which was mostly indoors and you had to navigate through corridors and find the right door of dozens and arrgh

They should've kept it open to the sky, not make about a dozen big piramyds that house shops and homes within. It was a bitch to navigate.

 

[Metro]

Even with those changes I still think it would be too big and just for the sake of being big without actually making use of all of that real estate.