Development Info KOTOR 2 - suffering from amnesia according to IGN

[Stark]

For once, I'd like to see an RPG that isn't 'good-oriented', but rather 'evil-oriented'. In fact, whoever makes it should make it so that playing on the side of good even harder to try to pull off than playing on the side of evil and feels somewhat 'wrong', by rewarding you with a piss poor undesirable ending (e.g. your anti-hero dies in vain) and supporting characters which are less 'fleshed out' so to speak in that path because you end up killing a lot of them on the way, as they are evil to you.

I actually think ToEE fits the bill, somewhat. Playing at good guys you'll end up with a straight forward hack and slash game and you'll miss out on all the stories (what little there is, anyway) and sub-quests in the temple. whereas playing as neutral or evil party you'll get to know more, have new quests, and even find out a new area. (the ogre cave that will only show up in world map if you work for the fire temple dudes)

sure they could have brought this idea a little further, but for once in a DnD game I'm tempted to play evil side just to see what i'm missing. There was never any good reason to play evil in Bio's game, that's for sure.

 

[Volourn]

"There was never any good reason to play evil in Bio's game, that's for sure."

Error! Error! Error! Lots of reasons to play eveil in BIO games. Surely a hell of a lot more reasons than in TOEE which gave ya no real reasons to play evil OR good.


Quests can be completely different in BIO games if you are evil. The drow city, Firkragg, the thief guilds, and the druid grove are just 4 examples of quests/stories thata re different ly played out if you are "evil".

You all lose as per usual.

 

[suibhne]

Quests can be completely different in BIO games if you are evil. The drow city, Firkragg, the thief guilds, and the druid grove are just 4 examples of quests/stories thata re different ly played out if you are "evil".

The differences are minor. Both good and evil parties can end up basically slaughtering the entire Drow city; the thief guild ends up as the "Good" quest anyway, while working with the Vamps is "eeeeeeevil"; cooperating with Firkraag gets you about 1/20th the reward of killing him (though you can always go back and kill him afterwards, which I guess makes you even eviller).

The druid grove does have a legitimately "evil" solution, but it then locks you out of other quests and possible rewards - and even then it's not a truly evil solution unless you're an environmentalist like me; it's simply mercenary. I mean, you still end up saving Trademeet after all; the only question is whether or not you do it by poisoning some trees. I can easily see a good-aligned party deciding that's a worthy sacrifice in the right circumstances.

The problem isn't the individual quests, anyway. The problem is that, when you complete the druid grove quest by poisoning the entire grove (for example), you don't get tracked into a network of evil quests; there simply is no such thing. There are interlocking quests for good parties, and raising your reputation by completing them will lead to other good quests, but there's very little similar reward for low-reputation parties. And the whole "reputation" mechanic sucks anyway, since you frequently gain positive reputation for actions which an evil party might pursue for strictly self-serving ulterior motives. Bah.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

"rror! Error! Error! Lots of reasons to play eveil in BIO games. Surely a hell of a lot more reasons than in TOEE which gave ya no real reasons to play evil OR good.

I think Baldur's Gate 1, Thone of Bhaal, and KoTOR, in some instances (and BG1 probably outdoes KoTOR in some aspects) were the only Bioware games where evil was worth playing. Baldur's Gate 2 was extremely lacking, and the OC of NWN was just pitiful. I only dabbled in Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark, so I don't know anything about them (although I hear HoTU is improved); but ultimately I have to disagree with you on ToEE. I'd say it has as many reasons to play Evil as other CRPGs like Baldur's Gate or Fallout.

Quests can be completely different in BIO games if you are evil. The drow city, Firkragg, the thief guilds, and the druid grove are just 4 examples of quests/stories thata re different ly played out if you are "evil".

True for the Druid Grove.

Uncertain for the Thief Guild (can't remember any noticeable difference depending on alignment or attitude... unless you're talking about things like retrieving Edwin's documents or Embarl's dagger, and curiously enough, while certain actions taken in those might appear evil, they aren't counted as such by the game), and Firkraag (which I think it just depends on what you say, not alignment, but I can be wrong).

As for the Drow city, uh, what? Wheter you're good or evil you can't side with the Drow. You either have to escape the city quickly or kill everything that moves in there. There's only one quest I remember that could be completed in a good or evil fashion, regardless if I was evil or not, and that was getting the Sniver..dwed...filbin.... fuck it, Deep Gnome patrol leader's helmet.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Additionally, what suibhne said.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Svirfneblin.

 

[Limorkil]

Good and Evil

Kotor and Toee are the only games with any *real* evil character roleplaying options. Even then, I hesitate to include Toee because there it is basically a dungeon hack - there's not really a lot of roleplaying involved.

Kotor has some plot lines that can be successfully completed in a good, evil or even a neutral manner. However, the fork in a good/evil subplot often comes at the very end of the plot though, so 95% of the game is exactly the same for good or evil. Unfortunately, true to Bioware form, being evil generally means being a rude thug. I am currently trying to play a character who is intelligent and evil, sort of like a true Sith Lord, and frankly it is really hard to accumulate more dark side points than light side points. I am about halfway through the game and I am still neutral. I'll occaisionally get dark side points for corrupting someone and making them do evil, but then I'll get a bunch of light side points for choosing NOT to simply randomly slaughter everyone present. I do think this is kind of fun though. It's the first time I've had to work at being evil, because most games make it either totally impossible so that you never try or so easy that its generally more of a challenge to be good.

I played through the Baldur's Gate games recently and there isn't really any evil character gameplay there. You can occaisionally threaten, rob or kill someone but there are no real benefits to doing so. In general, the reputation system really punishes playing evil, since you get higher prices in shops and annoying attacks by the forces of the law. The only true benefit to being evil is that the recruitable evil NPCs are more powerful and interesting, but even then you are better of being neutral or good but not too good.

With the possible exception of Toee, the main problem with all these RPGs is that you cannot really join up with the bad guys. Regardless of whether you are good or evil, your foes and the central villan remain the same. In Kotor you have the option to set yourself up as a rival villain, but you can't join forces against the Rrepublic. Hopefully Kotor 2 will address this, but I honestly don't hold out much hope.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Fallout 2 had some real evil character roleplaying options, unless everyone's forgotten about the Slavers.

 

[Fez]

What about other games like Fallout and Planscape: Torment? They had a good amount of evil options.

 

[Fez]

You beat me to it Exitium

It'd be interesting to see a role-playing game that was entirely focused on being evil, though I could see people being uncomfortable trying that. I have often heard of people saying they didn't have the heart to harm a particular charater or feeling compelled to do the "right" thing and take an npc along or finish a quest in a certain way.

 

[Stark]

"There was never any good reason to play evil in Bio's game, that's for sure."

Error! Error! Error! Lots of reasons to play eveil in BIO games. Surely a hell of a lot more reasons than in TOEE which gave ya no real reasons to play evil OR good.


Quests can be completely different in BIO games if you are evil. The drow city, Firkragg, the thief guilds, and the druid grove are just 4 examples of quests/stories thata re different ly played out if you are "evil".

ouch. I totally forgot I made a post here.

I can't speak for others but right now I'm seriously contemplating to start an evil party in ToEE just to see how things turn out differently (having completed it once using a good party and currently playing through using neutral party) whereas in other games i'll play through using good aligned parties only.

Let's, for the moment, put aside the issue whether ToEE, as a whole, has good role-playing oppurtunities. My point is, it is the only dnd crpg that i know of, where gaming experience playing evil is more satisfying than playing as good, since as good guys you'll end up killing everyone in sight in the temple and no dialog is ever initiated, and end up missing some of the background stories. (and i made that in response to Exitium's comment about evil path being less rewarding in rpgs...)

I've never felt that way with any of the Bio games. I've always been pretty sure the experience would not be radically different. Why? I read through the walkthroughs (*gasp*) and didn't find them radically different. in almost all instances you're being actively "punished" for playing as evil, such as less reward/subquests etc.

BTW I've not played Kotor. So the above comment may not apply.

You all lose as per usual.

haha. at most i lose. why include the others?

 

[Stark]

It'd be interesting to see a role-playing game that was entirely focused on being evil, though I could see people being uncomfortable trying that. I have often heard of people saying they didn't have the heart to harm a particular charater or feeling compelled to do the "right" thing and take an npc along or finish a quest in a certain way.

you too? Silly as it seems, I've always have problem making myself choosing the evil path. I've always wondered if I'm too uptight, since it's only a game.