Review KotOR passions at GameBanshee

[Saint_Proverbius]

Like all Bio creations, most of the dark stuff revolves around money. Early on you catch 2 "Bounty Hunters" shaking some guy down for credits, you can dispatch them and then the dark side option is that you mug the guy, the guy who couldn't pay his debt, so not only is the dark side evil, its really fucking stupid. Pretty much every side quest has a "Gimme More!" or "No Reward Needed" option, how dumb can that reviewer be to miss that? Maybe he just figures since most differing dialogue options lead to a stock answer his asking for more loot is the same as asking for nothing.

Most of the dark stuff I thought revolved around killing people, IMHO. In fact, the only way to get Dark Points at the last Jedi trial was by killing someone, which ends up screwing you later on, I think.

 

[Voss]

One thing I dislike with the dark/light side points...
considering the way the various Jedi (both in the game, and the films) are obsessed with the whole light/dark side thing, I find how easy it is to avoid the dark side a little disappointing. Admittedly theres a step removed for a player from the situations in the game, but I haven't really encountered any situations where I think 'Hmm, my character would *have* to do it this way- regardless of any price or cost to the character.' I've gotten up to the ship (not the Hawk, the other ship) and haven't run into any real test of character situations- I can pretty much pick through the options as I please... no going to the dark side unless I consciously want to try it out.
Thats a little disappointing, even the in character moments have me wondering whats wrong with all the other Jedi, since the dark side is obviously an issue for them, but for my character, who merely goes with what he feels is right, its a piece of cake.
I was pleased to come across a conversation to that effect with Bastilla the Bitch-goddess though.

 

[kumquatq3]

I find how easy it is to avoid the dark side a little disappointing

I understand what you are saying, but what did you really expect them to do to make you want to fall to the darkside? Its not like you have anything personally on the line here. I think they did pretty much what they could. There is without question much more money to be made/saved using methods that will get you DS points. As well as quite a few "easy outs" that the DS paths will get you that the LS won't. I am pretty sure DS points are easier to come by too. That or just easier to find. I think all that was done on purpose.

I have never played as a female ( I have played twice as a male doing both LS and DS paths), but what I thought was the main thing that is supposed to try and sway you to the dark side was when.. ::SPOILER:: (do I have to type that is this thread?)


..you fought Bastila on top of the temple. You could gain Bastila again by turning to the darkside, but you would lose any Jedis with you at the time. As combat goes, DS Bastila is much better than either of the other two jedis, IMO. Specially if you planned ahead a bit. Granted you can convert her to the lightside again if you choose the LS path, but you won't be able to use her as a NPC.

 

[Volourn]

I just met her on the temple, and I admit; her words DID tempt me as they amde a heck of a lot of sense.

 

[kumquatq3]

Most of the dark stuff I thought revolved around killing people, IMHO. In fact, the only way to get Dark Points at the last Jedi trial was by killing someone, which ends up screwing you later on, I think.

First, you can avoid killing that person without getting a LS point. If I remember right, you just ask for a reward and it negates the LS point. If you are trying to go for the DS utterly, then killing that someone doesn't really matter.

::SPOILER::

As that person would die later anyways. You could have the two other jedi (who are better, imo) for most of the game. You would always at least have one of them.

::END spoiler::

You also could get alot of DS points by using Force persuade at all times. Also, you seem to get alot if you ask for higher rewards or asking for a reward when one isn't offered. I think a good chunk of the DS points are tied up in the previous two options, but yes, often it has to do with cash in some way or form. Not always directly tho. Threats will occasionally get you a point, as will just simple not careing what happens to someone in need. Then there are the times you take the easy way out to get a DS point.

::SPOILER::

Like when you could poison the fish on manann (sp?) or solve the mini-puzzle to blow the tanks. Killing the fish also poisons the water, but no puzzle!

::END::

But killing does facter in quite a bit. Just not as much as you seem to imply. I personally see a wide variety of ways to get a DS point without having to have anything to do with cash involved. Or killing. If anyone would like me to PM them some, I will. As I don't want to make a big spoiler list.

 

[kumquatq3]

I just met her on the temple, and I admit; her words DID tempt me as they amde a heck of a lot of sense.

If you save it right there you can save ALOT of time if you want to see both endings. Tho, its really fun to play all the way through the game gunning for the DS. You have to be a big SOB about it tho.

 

[Volourn]

Believe me, I plan to play the game again. First one in along while at that.

 

[kumquatq3]

Believe me, I plan to play the game again. First one in along while at that.

First RPG I replayed since FO2.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Tho, its really fun to play all the way through the game gunning for the DS. You have to be a big SOB about it tho.

Not to mention you get to listen to some of the goody-goody NPCs whine and groan about it. Friggin hilarious stuff sometimes.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

considering the way the various Jedi (both in the game, and the films) are obsessed with the whole light/dark side thing, I find how easy it is to avoid the dark side a little disappointing. Admittedly theres a step removed for a player from the situations in the game, but I haven't really encountered any situations where I think 'Hmm, my character would *have* to do it this way- regardless of any price or cost to the character.' I've gotten up to the ship (not the Hawk, the other ship) and haven't run into any real test of character situations- I can pretty much pick through the options as I please... no going to the dark side unless I consciously want to try it out.

I can only name ONE time this happenned. I was basically given a choice of perhaps dying versus someone else dying, or the risk of both of us dying with a slimmer chance of survival. Anyway, I let them die, so.. Dark Point for me.

As that person would die later anyways. You could have the two other jedi (who are better, imo) for most of the game. You would always at least have one of them.

Didn't die in my game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

One thing I dislike with the dark/light side points...
considering the way the various Jedi (both in the game, and the films) are obsessed with the whole light/dark side thing, I find how easy it is to avoid the dark side a little disappointing.

I agree. The choice is usually very clear, it doesn't always revolve around killing or money, but it's clear. There is no temptation, there is no lure, there is no " you think that you're doing the right thing but you're not", etc. That's dissapointing.

 

[kumquatq3]

Didn't die in my game.

Maybe its different for females, or maybe you didn't truely choose the DS path. In the male game, if you go to the DS, the person dies. period.

I agree. The choice is usually very clear, it doesn't always revolve around killing or money, but it's clear. There is no temptation, there is no lure, there is no " you think that you're doing the right thing but you're not", etc. That's dissapointing.

That is a good point, but I think it is different than the comment you replied to. I think what Voss was saying is that there wasn't really a moral test of your charecter in his opinion. What your saying seems to be not so much that there wasn't moral test, but that you wern't tricked in to doing some DS act. Did I get it right?


Besides, if you look at the movies, the only time Luke is really tempted by the DS is when a Dark Jedi is around. I feel that holds true in KOTOR (to the best a video game can, anyways). You can be in the darkside points in KOTOR and still take the lightside path. So its not like DS points defines your guy. There is a specific event that defines if your LS or DS (at least for males).

 

[Vault Dweller]

I agree. The choice is usually very clear, it doesn't always revolve around killing or money, but it's clear. There is no temptation, there is no lure, there is no " you think that you're doing the right thing but you're not", etc. That's dissapointing.

That is a good point, but I think it is different than the comment you replied to. I think what Voss was saying is that there wasn't really a moral test of your charecter in his opinion. What your saying seems to be not so much that there wasn't moral test, but that you wern't tricked in to doing some DS act. Did I get it right?

Not necessarily tricked, because LS vs DS, imo, doesn't mean good vs evil, it's not that straightforward, that's why the danger of turning is so high, you often don't see it untill it's too late if at all. It's not about tricking PC into something, it's about presenting valid moral justifications for negative actions.

 

[Volourn]

Which KOTOR does very well. Case in point, HUGE HONKING SPOILER REMOVED. There's also the situation that SP mentioned.There's also the the meeting with Juahani'sformer slave master. They're all over the place. That said, like ANY game, and reasonablly intelligent player should be able to play either good or evil if they choose to.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Didn't die in my game.

Maybe its different for females, or maybe you didn't truely choose the DS path. In the male game, if you go to the DS, the person dies. period.

We are both talking about the goofy chick that's corrupting the grove, right? It could be that she doesn't die in the Light Side of the game, because that's the way I finished the game. I'm halfway through on the Dark Side.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That said, like ANY game, and reasonablly intelligent player should be able to play either good or evil if they choose to.

The only problem, like I said, LS vs DS is not the same as good vs evil. In other words, you missed the point

 

[kumquatq3]

Didn't die in my game.

Maybe its different for females, or maybe you didn't truely choose the DS path. In the male game, if you go to the DS, the person dies. period.

We are both talking about the goofy chick that's corrupting the grove, right? It could be that she doesn't die in the Light Side of the game, because that's the way I finished the game. I'm halfway through on the Dark Side.

:::::::::::SPOILERS:::::::::::::::::::::

Yes, we are, but I have only played as a male remember. If you play the DS (IE have Bastila join you on top of the temple instead of telling her to come back to the light) then you have to turn on any Jedi with you. So the Cat lady in the grove dies anyways. So you can kill her in the grove to get the DS point or save her and ask for a reward for doing so, so that you get her but not a LS point for saving her. But again, she will die in the temple anyways.

If you are taking the LS path then she doesn't die (unless you kill her off in the grove, but thats not really the LS path now is it :wink: ). I thought you where talking about the DS path earlier.

 

[Volourn]

Haha. Touche. Still, how do you really expect them to "trick" the player into turning to the Dark Side? Perhaps, trick the character; but not the player. Thena agin, if you read the KOTOR baords; lots of DUMMIES got tricked into doing the dark side. HAHAHA!!!

 

[kumquatq3]

That said, like ANY game, and reasonablly intelligent player should be able to play either good or evil if they choose to.

The only problem, like I said, LS vs DS is not the same as good vs evil. In other words, you missed the point

I understand you, but lets also remember what Bio had to work with. Lucas isn't going to let anything in the game that would be to "evil" or taxing for a young person to see. So its hard to put in situations where the LS isn't clearly on moral ground or put in situatiosn where it would be hard for you to resist the DS.

 

[kumquatq3]

Haha. Touche. Still, how do you really expect them to "trick" the player into turning to the Dark Side? Perhaps, trick the character; but not the player. Thena agin, if you read the KOTOR baords; lots of DUMMIES got tricked into doing the dark side. HAHAHA!!!

He didn't mean trick (My fault for poor word usage, tho I think I understood what he meant).

He meant more that the "ends justify the means" route should have been more available. If that makes sense.

 

[triCritical]

If this game doesn't entail a sequel I'll be surprised as hell. Sequels usually stink though... heh.

According to rumors, Obsidian is working on the sequel. One thing for sure, KOTOR would benefit greatly from MCA's writing style.

This game really seems like something that would be up MCA's alley.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Haha. Touche. Still, how do you really expect them to "trick" the player into turning to the Dark Side? Perhaps, trick the character; but not the player.

I don't see a difference. You believe what you are told, so when you (both the player and the character) are presented with a good argument, you have to consider it and compare it with what you've learned about the gameworld so far. Assuming that you have no prior knowledge of the SW universe, how would you truly now that the Sith are bad before they destroy Taris? They patrol the city, they try to maintain order, they party, etc. You might as well join them thinking that it's a better way then working with the Hutts and the gangs. You can follow their logic and help them dominate the planet, hunting the gangs and such, but in the end you are taking a step toward the dark side. Unlike the LS, the DS path should never be obvious.

He meant more that the "ends justify the means" route should have been more available. If that makes sense.

It does. I meant all the ways, but the "ends justify the means" is also an interesting path toward the DS. Revan was a war hero who made too many questionable choices

understand you, but lets also remember what Bio had to work with. Lucas isn't going to let anything in the game that would be to "evil" or taxing for a young person to see. So its hard to put in situations where the LS isn't clearly on moral ground or put in situatiosn where it would be hard for you to resist the DS.

And yet there are plenty of "evil" situation in the game. I think that showing the kids that moral choices are never simple and could have consequences is better then let them extort money and kill people for money. Don't get me wrong, it's a good game, and there are some good DS quests, I just wished they showed the temptation and the lure instead of a deliberate choice to be bad.

 

[Voss]

Yes, thats more what I was talking about. The lure and temptation isn't there, the way it was always presented in the films, and the way the various Jedi in the game treat it. Other people talk about doing whatever's necessary to do good (and that whatever usuaully bites them in the ass later) but for the main character its a fairly dispassionate choice, every time. And since it is dispassionate, its easy to stick with the light side.(The exception that comes to mind is the torture scene- I can see giving in there, but I'm not really sure that giving them the info they want to stop someone else being tortured would be a light or dark choice. Ultimately, probably dark, but...)
Thats the only situation though- in contrast you've got the initial situation with Juhlani in the grove. Its perfectly obvious what the light path is, unless you randomly decide to take being attacked personally.

Overall, I like the game, but I would've prefered a realization of, 'Oh, *thats* how I got here', to 'This is my path, and I'm sticking to it'. I would've also liked an option to join the Sith early on- work your way into their camp on Taris and head to Korriban specifically to train. And then go after the maps (and ultimately, Malak) for ...other... reasons. It could've opened another path at Mannan, while Kasshyk and Tattooine would've been essentially the same, and culminated in leading an assault on Dantooine.


Edit: VD, on Revan. I'm not convinced that he was completely Dark anyway. Theres no mention of atrocities while he was in command. Sacrifices, yes, but not the random destruction of worlds the way Malak does it. He could've have been coming back to overthrow the Republic for good reasons- their ineptness with the Mandalorian War, for example. He's means are questionable, but theres a greater good angle to most of them. Replace the worthless system of governance with a new, effective one, and ultimately save more people. Using the Sith as a tool, and fits in with the 'just a soldier' vibe you get initially from the Sith in Taris.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thats the only situation though- in contrast you've got the initial situation with Juhlani in the grove. Its perfectly obvious what the light path is, unless you randomly decide to take being attacked personally.

About that fight. During the second Jedi initiation trial they asked you a question that goes something like: You fight the Dark Jedi, there is a pause in the combat. What do you do? I chose "Attack again". I was certain that somebody would point the error of my way out, but no, they tolld me I did great, gave me a lightsaber and send me to fight tha Dark Jedi who paused in the combat. :twisted:

 

[Voss]

Oh. Good point. Yeah. I thought that was a bad option, even for the guardian, since it misses the point of what all Jedi are supposed to be. Even the combat oriented ones aren't supposed to be hack-monsters that cut down every evil thats so much as twitching...
On the other hand I liked the other two choices, in a lot of those situations- investigate personally or coordinate with the planetary government? Hmm. That is a difference of philosophy, but both can yield positive results.

So, did you kill her? I'm tempted to, sometimes... so _much_ whining. Someone else blew up the world she hated and despised so much, and shes lashing out at me? What? Why does she even care?