Preview KOTOR previewed at Just RPG

[Volourn]

Everyone knows I'm an idiot so don't worry about it, sir. Not like that will change.

 

[DrattedTin]

Why not? It's as non-linear as it gets: once you are out of the vault you are free to go anywhere and do anything. Of course, it's not as huge as some other non-linear games are, but the choices and different gameplay styles more then make up for that.

Sorry, I can't agree there. The big D's (Darklands and Daggerfall) have it beat there. No matter how non-linear the game is, it still ends prematurely if you don't pay attention to the main quest, whereas with the two aforementioned games there either IS no real main quest, or it can be ignored with abandon.

Then again, I guess the problem here is I'm defining "non-linear" as "completely free" whereas it really just means "not in a straight line".

 

[Spazmo]

Well, DrattedTin, Daggerfall is admittedly really fucking free-form, but that's not necessarily good. Daggerfall's non-linearity stemmed from the game's system for creating random new towns and areas for the player to explore. However, these areas eventually started to look the same, as can be expected. I'd rather have a smaller, better-designed game world like Fallout than a more or less infinite, repetitive one like Daggerfall.

 

[Volourn]

Heh. I have to agree. I personally feel all the ES games are like that. FO's version of free form is much interesting than the ES games' versions.

 

[triCritical]

I happened to love Morrowind's improvement over Daggerfall's sameness. However, one thing I would have loved would have been for the guild test to randomly generated. I mean instead of picking up flowers a at point b, we could have picked up flowers c at point d. I think this would have helped replayability with little to know extra cost. Or, made quest a little more general.

 

[DrattedTin]

I'm one of the few people who thinks Daggerfall is vastly superior to Morrowind.

Morrowind couldn't feature random quests because it just wasn't how it was designed.

That said, I can understand the dislike for Daggerfall. Fallout and Daggerfall/Darklands are two entirely different breeds of RPG, and both have their merits (the same applies to the reverse, as showcased in Torment).

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

hey

Everyone knows I'm an idiot so don't worry about it, sir. Not like that will change.

Now i feel bad, sorry.

 

[Section8]

I played a lot more Daggerfall than Morrowind. Mostly because while I found the Morrowind world fairly interesting, there was nothing I could do in that world that was very exciting. Combat, Stealth, Diplomacy and Magic were all fairly mundane and tedious, and so I found myself exploring, until I got stuck in a cave that I couldn't get out of and that was it.

With Daggerfall I kept going back out of some kind of morbid curiosity of what wacky thing the random generator would come up with.

That's the biggest problem with sandbox style gaming, is that if you don't have any fun toys to play with while you're in the sandbox, then what's the point?

 

[dipdipdip]

I'd have to say that the thing that bugs me most is the fact that the "persuade" skill -- what's obviously meant to be the game's equivalent to Fallout's "speech" skill -- is really little more than a price-haggling device. Now, if the instruction manual and in-game description were honest and up-front about it, I could live with it. The manual states, and I quote, "Persuade dialogue options use friendly coercion to press for sensitive information or avoid conflict."

It usually works something like this:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Store owner: Greetings and welcome to my store.

Me: I'm looking to purchase that robot standing in the corner over there.

Store owner: I'd be willing to part with it for no less than 5,000 whatevers.

Me: K.

Me: Shucks, can't afford.

Me: [Persuade] That's perhaps a bit much. Are you willing to go any lower?

Me: [Force Persuade] That's too much. You're to lower the price.

Me: No. Gimme droid or die, fool.
--------------------------------------------------------------

That's about all there is to it.

I've yet to encounter a major fight where I was even given a chance to use persuasion. I don't see the point in allowing me to choose a character that isn't meant for combat, when combat is more often than not the only alternative. Oddly, to counter this, they reccomend this type of character become a "mage" of sorts once you can exploit the force supposedly latent within you.

 

[Voss]

Ah. Well. I figured they'd do something like that.
Savages.

Though its worth pointing out that about the time they were starting on KotoR (at least roughly- back at the end of 2001), they were looking for a dialogue writer/scripter.
Now they're looking for one again. Coincidence?

 

[Volourn]

Hmm..Interetsing post, Dip. If true of every conversation and/or enocunter that would truly suck. However, unless everyone I've discussed with who has played the game says otherwise... Hmm... I wouldn't be urprised if it's like that for some convos; but all of 'em? Hmmm...

 

[Vault Dweller]

If true of every conversation and/or enocunter that would truly suck. However, unless everyone I've discussed with who has played the game says otherwise... Hmm...

Why don't you post examples of what you've heard "otherwise" unless of course all they say is "it's awesome and you can like totally persuade people and stuff" like our overly enthusiastic friend did here http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1871

 

[triCritical]

I've yet to encounter a major fight where I was even given a chance to use persuasion. I don't see the point in allowing me to choose a character that isn't meant for combat, when combat is more often than not the only alternative. Oddly, to counter this, they reccomend this type of character become a "mage" of sorts once you can exploit the force supposedly latent within you.

And why would Bioware ever change? Afterall, what is there motto... The only options in our deep RPG's is more combat. So really if they actually used the pursuade skill for something meaningful, that would be kind of anti-Bioware. I remember arguing with this dude name Draconis, Bioware named a character after him, about using pursuade in NWN. He stated, that NWN is amazing, I can haggle almost any quest reward. And I am like... :shock: Big f*cking deal, when the quest itself, and all of them for that matter, will be solved through straightfoward monotanous combat. Not a lot a choice there? I guess some people are easier to please then others.

 

[Volourn]

Aye, persudade wasn't in top from in NWN. It is improved in SOU (not counting ch2).

VD, don't worry, I've sent a pm to a certain someone who has played the game. Hopefully, he'll get back to me soon.

At least the Troika guy gave an example of the loop convo stuff unlike the one just did a general example which pretty much proves nothing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I've sent a pm to a certain someone who has played the game.

A certain someone? Hmm, I sense a MYSTARY! :D

 

[Volourn]

:D Well.. To get exact answers I'd rather ask someone I know will say the facts; not spout "OMG! it's great!". I've been good at avoding spoilers; but i guess I'll take the hit here. Tha said, I have no coifrmation (yet) that persuade makes a difference; but I do know that at least one quest has at least 3 ways to deal witht he problem at hand.

I'd give the name; but I ain't gonna drag another into my "wars" here. He did say persuade makes a difference; but hans't given me anye xamples as he waa voding spoilers.

Damn you! Err.. Damn me; for having to debate a game that a month ago; I didn't give a damn about.

PS. LOts of damns there. I better stop it or I'll be damned for eternity; if I'm not damned at all! :shock: :wink:

 

[dipdipdip]

Well, that's the end of that. I'd made it somewhere close to the end of the game, and between a relatively dumb maj0r plot twizt that was revealed, and a few truly dumb sequences that had followed, I'd decided to quit while I was ahead. The plot really is just one cliche after another. What's funny is that shortly after I'd decided to look into what the game's trade-in value was, a show-stopping glitch came along and screwed up my game, anyway (it's not the most polished game you'll find, either). I figure it's the game's way of telling me to "talk to the hand".

I figure I'm not missing out on anything. I'm quite sure that the ending will be a kissing scene between me and a fellow party member, that despite my best efforts in trying to turn her away via not-so-warm dialogue choices, I've been locked into a romance with.

So, that marks the end of my streaming commentary. Back to lurking.

 

[Voss]

Chop off her head! Chop off her head!

Not that I'm opposed to romance in RPGs. I think its a nice option. But not if its forced.
Or maybe theres a Force Romance feat? Can you check her character sheet/stats to see?

I have a bad feeling about the plot twist. I can almost guess what it is...

This is the 4th post/review I've seen about the player being forced into things.. Not a good sign.

 

[Volourn]

Vault Dweller: Not as exact as I'd like; but I'm waiting for another more elaborate response from this person whom I am quoting:

"Almost all the dialog has branching paths. I do have oe example that could be interesting if I ever see this guy again.

After the first set of events that most review give away, you end up in the city of Taris thats controlled by the Sith. I dont know if the Sith have anything to do with it but there is a bigoted class system in which the aliens are second class citizens. This one old man ministers to people on the streets telling them that the aliens are a scourge and ask you to join him in exterminating them. My character is kinda apathetic to his whole citation. He will surely lean towards the darkside one day. When the old man approached my character asking him to join his anti alien plight you are presented with the options to argue against the old mans views, call him a coot, agree the aliens must be slaughtered, or ignore him. Just to be an a$$ my character who really thinks the old man is a coot lied to him and told him the aliens should be slathered. The old man smiles and tells my character that we will join up one day and its marked in my journal.

I'm too early in the game to have seen many complex examples of choices effecting you later on but on a simple level there are plenty examples of this and yes persuasion is used very often. I think thats why console reviewers are so high on this game you have a nice combination of freedom and structure. One thing nobody has talked about thats fun as hell is that card game. Mini games are probably my favorite trait of Japanese RPGs. Its nice to see Bioware pull off the card game as well as they did. In a week I'll PM you some more examples choices and cause and effect, and I guess some of the things I think should be fixed or added to a sequel"

I'll post more when he replies...

 

[Vault Dweller]

you are presented with the options to argue against the old mans views, call him a coot, agree the aliens must be slaughtered, or ignore him.... The old man smiles and tells my character that we will join up one day and its marked in my journal.

I never had a doubt that there are going to be choices. The question is how they are presented and implemented, what significance if any your choice has, etc. Btw, do you know what happens if you try to persuade the old man?

In a week I'll PM you some more examples choices and cause and effect

Looking forward.

Thanks for looking for and posting this info, btw.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah, I know that. That's why I asked him for exactly how it was presented; and how it effects the game later. As mentiond he'll get back to me when he can.

I've also pmed a few others; but they haven't pmed me back yet. Damn people who actually have lives. Hum bug.

Heh. No problem. I'm as interested as getting at leats one exact example to see how it goes.

 

[Section8]

If New World Computing (?) managed to do a card mini game right in the woeful end to the Might & Magic series, then Bioware could probably do it too.

 

[Imbroglio]

After beating the game

Well, I just beat this as a light aligned scoundrel sort and thought I would give my impressions of the title as it seems to be under quite a bit of debate at the moment.

Linear vrs Non Linear play-Linear, mostly. Good/evil is very much an option and from my experience east option is well done in terms of dialogue and the general feel of it, vocals are I thought of an unusually high quality. People filled with despair pleading with you to do the right thing, and being betrayed. Fun.

The choice of good/evil (or to engage in one of the many sidequests) do not alter the flow of the game in the least however, simply provide entirely different outlooks on identical scenes.

Persuade DOES have its uses to extract information and avoid combat, but they are rare, as has been stated in this thread its mostly a bargaining tool. Minimal scores in it really seem to work as well as powerful 95% of the time, and even a powerful rating seems to have no tangible impact (I always loved my fast talking fallout sorts).

Combat is heavy and an absolute requirement, also great fun however I thought particuarly when you get your jedi powers going full steam.

Your char is not 15, although age is never stated, in general they appear to be somewhere in their 20's. In the context of the game itself mid to late 20's would be sensible.

The uber jedi talents at Dantooine has irked some already I've seen. Irked me too. It is explained in a rather predictable plot point later in the game and makes things quite sensible at that point in time, along with the visions and everything else. I'll stop short of giving spoilers however.

All in all, I have to give the game good marks. Linearity has never bothered me, I was into adventure games before RPG's, and into console RPG's as much as PC's, each has their own flavor.

This title will provide a plot that very much has its moments, excellent voice acting, slick graphics, good combat, a great deal of star wars fun.

Head and shoulders above the monstrosity that was NWN, bioware has somewhat redeemed themselves to me with this offering.