Krynn Series Party Building

[Lorica]

I've reached that point where I can't start a new RPG without almost obsessively planning character development. In two weeks, I want to start my first playthrough of the Krynn series, starting of course with Champions of Krynn. I'm toying with the idea of carrying through my party through Dark Queen. Would anyone be able to offer some spoiler-free (-light...) feedback?

First thing, I'm using the DQ max level table:

MAXIMUM LEVEL LIMITS BY RACE AND CLASS

CLASS    HUMANS  SILV.  QUAL.    HALF    HILL     MTH.      KENDER
                 ELVES  ELVES    ELVES   DWARVES  DWARVES
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleric      Max   Max    Max      Max     10       10        12
Fighter     Max   10     14       9       Max      Max       5
Paladin     Max   12     No       No      No       8         No
Ranger      Max   Max    Max      11      8        No        5
Knight      Max   No     No       10      No       No        No
Magic-user  Max   Max    Max      10      No       No        No
Thief       Max   No     Max      Max     10       8         Max

Being obsessive, I reckon this means that the most powerful potential characters are:
Qual: Cleric/Ranger, Cleric/Mage, Mage/Thief
Silv: Cleric/Ranger, Cleric/Mage
Half: Cleric/Thief

For extra fighting power, I could get away with:
Qual: Cleric/Fighter/Mage, Fighter/Mage/Thief

Thus, I'm tempted to use as a base:

Human Knight
Qual Cleric/Fighter/Mage
Qual Fighter/Mage/Thief

From there, I'm considering:

Silv Cleric/Mage
Qual Cleric/Mage
Another Human Knight

The plan would be two and two red and white robes. I'd total:
Fighting men: 2 x 1, 2 x 1/3
Thieves: 1 x 1/3
Magic users: 2 x 1/2, 2 x 1/3
Clerics: 2 x 1/2, 1 x 1/3

Clerics aren't as well represented due to knight spell casting at high levels.

Is that workable? Are there any other advantages of taking other races? The Kender special ability looks kind of balls, especially given that the power gamey choice for them is single class thief, not a tank. Other than a marginally higher minimum intelligence and charisma, is there any reason to take Silvanesti elves? Is there any reason dwarves don't suck as badly as their stats imply (like, say, exceptional constitution bonuses)?

Should I invest in a single or dual class thief? Are two knights redundant? Is a ranger necessary? Am I turning mondblutian?

 

[octavius]

Being obsessive, I reckon this means that the most powerful potential characters are:
Qual: Cleric/Ranger, Cleric/Mage, Mage/Thief
Silv: Cleric/Ranger, Cleric/Mage

Cleric/Ranger is powerful. Personally I'm not a big fan of Cleric/Mages; I much prefer a fighter type as one of the classes for the extra HP and even more importantly: better THAC0 and extra attacks.
Mage/Thieves are even worse; poor HP and poor THAC0.
The potentially most powerful character would be a Fighter/Mage/Thief, but they need too much XP to develop into powerhouse and by then the Thief is mostly obsolete.
So I'd choose a Qualinesti Elf Fighter/Red Mage. Qs can reach lvl 14 as Fighter, so they get max number of attacks and HP. Being a Red Mage they can cast spells like Slow, Haste (character level not as important as with damage spells) and Mirror Image (very useful for a Fighter/Mage).

Half: Cleric/Thief

Useless, since they can't backstab being restricted to blunt weapons. Chose a Kender instead; they can use their Hoopaks for backstabbing.

For extra fighting power, I could get away with:
Qual: Cleric/Fighter/Mage, Fighter/Mage/Thief

Thus, I'm tempted to use as a base:

Human Knight
Qual Cleric/Fighter/Mage
Qual Fighter/Mage/Thief

From there, I'm considering:

Silv Cleric/Mage
Qual Cleric/Mage
Another Human Knight

The plan would be two and two red and white robes. I'd total:
Fighting men: 2 x 1, 2 x 1/3
Thieves: 1 x 1/3
Magic users: 2 x 1/2, 2 x 1/3
Clerics: 2 x 1/2, 1 x 1/3

Clerics aren't as well represented due to knight spell casting at high levels.

Is that workable?

Certainly.

Are there any other advantages of taking other races? The Kender special ability looks kind of balls, especially given that the power gamey choice for them is single class thief, not a tank.

I'd definitey include a Kender Cleric/Thief, for several reasons:
Diversity/role playing reason.
Their Taunt ability is almost like a free Prayer spell, which is very useful at low levels when your guys can hardly hit anything due to low THAC0 and the enemies have poor saving throws.
Kender are the only ones who can use the magic Hoopaks you find, and in Death Knights of Krynn a Kender Cleric/Thief will be the only party member being able to do any significant damage to certain numerous and annoying enemies.
A Half-Elf Fighter/Thief would be the best general purpose backstabber, though, but personally I think the Kender is more fun and more versatile. Kender are also immune to Fear, which may come in handy.
A Kender Cleric/Thief will be mostly useless in the final game, though, due to lack of backstabbing targets and no more advancement as Cleric. So a replacement may be in order then.

Should I invest in a single or dual class thief?

Single class Thieves are always useless compared to their dual (not an option in the Krynn games) or multi classed alternatives.

Are two knights redundant?

No. 2-3 single class Fighter types will be useful when wielding those Dragonlances. A Dwarf Fighter can get even more HP, though, so will be even more effective at wielding them.

Is a ranger necessary?

No, but always nice to have.


My own favoured party, with as much power as possible with as many races as possible included would be this:

Human Knight
Dwarf Fighter
Kender Cleric/Thief
Human White Mage (Fireballs ASAP and as much damage as possible. And being Human rather than Elf he can be brought back from the dead)
Qualinesti Fighter/Red Mage
Silvanesti Cleric/Ranger

 

[Lorica]

Thanks for the really detailed feedback. I'd kind of discounted dwarves because I thought for some reason that only knights were able to wield dragonlances (misreading the fucking manual). But you're right, it might make for a more interesting single class fighter than a second knight. Still disappointed that there's no next-gen-regen.

I figured the Kender cleric/thief would outlive its usefulness... What I didn't know is that the taunt had any real effect other than attracting attention. The manual just has a vague "suffering loss of combat effectiveness". You say that it reduces AC?

You avoid triple classing pretty hard in general, don't you? I'll have to meditate on that one.

Why single class as a white robe? Don't red robes advance faster by about fourth level?

Is there any reason to prefer Silvanesti to Qualinesti?

 

[octavius]

I figured the Kender cleric/thief would outlive its usefulness... What I didn't know is that the taunt had any real effect other than attracting attention. The manual just has a vague "suffering loss of combat effectiveness". You say that it reduces AC?

It reduces enemies' combat effectiveness. I take it to mean they lose THAC0 and/or AC.

You avoid triple classing pretty hard in general, don't you? I'll have to meditate on that one.

Only time I've used triple classes was when soloing Icewind Dale and having some temporary (to be replaced with Paladin and Ranger in Curse of the Azure Bonds) triple classed members for extra Sleep and Cure spells in Pool or Radiance.

Why single class as a white robe? Don't red robes advance faster by about fourth level?

Hmm...didn't know Red Robes started to advance faster...anyway, only Reds get Mirror Image and Blink which is pretty useful for a Fighter/Mage.
In any case you need one of both colours to get all the spells. And don't forget you need an INT of 18 to be able to cast lvl 9 spells.

Is there any reason to prefer Silvanesti to Qualinesti?

Only for diversity's sake, I think.

 

[Erebus]

My favorite party is the one I used in my semi-LP of DQK :

- Ranger
- Knight
- Ranger/Cleric
- Wizard/Cleric
- White Wizard
- Red Wizard

All humans except for the (elven) clerics.

Thus, I'm tempted to use as a base:

Human Knight
Qual Cleric/Fighter/Mage
Qual Fighter/Mage/Thief

From there, I'm considering:

Silv Cleric/Mage
Qual Cleric/Mage
Another Human Knight

I don't think I ever tried triple-classed characters, so I couldn't say whether they work well or not.

I'd suggest having at least one single-classed mage. Gaining access to spells like Fireball (and its faster, stronger version, the DBF) as early as possible is important.

Also, the higher the level of the caster is, the more likely his spells are to bypass Magic Resistance (and quite a few monsters have MR).

Clerics aren't as well represented due to knight spell casting at high levels

Two multi-classed clerics and a knight are more than enough IMO.

Should I invest in a single or dual class thief?

Actually, you can even do without one.

Are two knights redundant?

Good question. I guess it would improve your chances of commanding NPC companions (by themselves, they tend to act like morons).

Is a ranger necessary?

I find that a single-classed ranger can be a pretty good Dragonlance wielder, since he will have a good Thac0 and high HP (which is important because the Dragonlance inflicts as many points of damage to dragons as its wielder has HP). Knights are good tanks because of their excellent armors, but said armors also limit their movement (and you really want to reach and kill dragons as quickly as possible).

 

[dragonbait]

Is there any reason to prefer Silvanesti to Qualinesti?

I seem to remember using Qualinesti more than Silvanesti. See link below for more details.
http://lparchive.org/Krynn-series-DD-Gold-Box/Update 01/

But a warning that either of the two types of Elves CANNOT be raised from the dead.

 

[Lorica]

Thanks for all your feedback, guys. I'm a newfag still so I guess it's a good old fashioned:


I settled on:
Human Knight
Hill Dwarf Fighter
Qual Cleric of KJ/Ranger
Qual Cleric of Mish/White Mage
Human Red Mage
Human White Mage

Of course, like a 'tard, I made a beeline for Jelek instead of Throtl to look for C. and got slaughtered by some giants and draconians. Great time so far!

 

[Erebus]

Yes, even though you're technically free to go to any city, going somewhere before you're told to is pointless and likely to get you slaughtered.

Mind you, Throtl can be a challenge right from the start : giant centipedes can one-shot your PCs with their poisonous bites and evil warriors are pretty tough.

The good thing about having three mages is that you can use Sleep a lot ; it really works wonders at the beginning of the game. And, once you gain access to 2nd-level spells, Stinking Cloud will become your absolute bestest friend.

 

[Lorica]

Oh, I was just being stupid, not trying to skip directly to Jelek. I've been taking Throtl slowly thus far. When I started the game, I was *broke*. My three frontliners each had a shield, a sword, and a set of armour, but the three mages got only 4 darts apiece, leaving me with exactly 0 steel pieces. So I've been packratting a bit and shuttling hobgoblin equipment back to the outpost at regular intervals.

Yeah, sleep + mages with darts is an insane combination against the hordes of hobgoblins in this dungeon. I did make a targeting error once and my fighter took a nap through a nasty fight...

I also got tripped up by AoO once or twice. Glad they're in, though, it makes it easier to give my mages decent protection than I had thought.

 

[Gregz]

This should be easy bro, just select from these:

Raistlin: Magic-user
Caramon: Fighter
Flint: Fighter
Tasslehoff: Thief
Tanis: Ranger
Sturm: Knight
Goldmoon: Cleric
Crysania: Cleric

done.

 

[Metro]

Any party comp will do. I beat it with a Knight, Warrior, Ranger, Thief, Cleric, and Mage. All pure classes.

 

[Lorica]

I understand. It's about taking pleasure in poking at the system in anticipation of playing the game, as much as anything, and maybe talking to people who get excited about the game, too. I've never played the Krynn series before, but most games from the era I played at an age where I built parties based on how kickass I imagined the classes and races sounded and I still had buckets of fun.

 

[Dorateen]

Hill Dwarf Fighter

Hmmph. The only real dwarves are Mountain Dwarves.

 

[mondblut]

Am I turning mondblutian?

Behold, hereby thou art welcometh into the fold.

 

[Bizarro Jimmy Olsen]

You really should take a Kender through the Krynn campaign, and Cleric/Thief makes the most sense.

I had great success with:

Human Knight
Mountain Dwarf Fighter
Elf Cleric/Ranger
2x Elf Fighter/Mage -- one red, one white
Kender Cleric/Thief

Everyone in plate mail except the thief (to qualify for backstabs).

I don't remember the difference between the two elf types mattering much, so I can't remember which kind of elves I used.

 

[Lorica]

Hmmph. The only real dwarves are Mountain Dwarves.

Just a bunch of pretty boys.

Seriously, Hill Dwarves have higher minimum constitutions and slightly higher strength in exchange for a lower maximum charisma... Besides that, the manual's kind of ambiguous about whether mountain dwarves get the same secondary racial traits (bonus to attack goblins, dodge vs. ogres y giants, resistances). Is that personal preference or is there something I'm missing?

Bizarro Jimmy Olsen: That reminds me... There're no armour restrictions on arcane magic use?

Behold, hereby thou art welcometh into the fold.

 

[Erebus]

There're no armour restrictions on arcane magic use?

Single-classed mages can't wear armor, that's for sure. As for dual-classed mages, I think it depends on what their other class is. At least some of them can use certain kinds of armor (such as elven chainmail).

 

[octavius]

There're no armour restrictions on arcane magic use?

Single-classed mages can't wear armor, that's for sure. As for dual-classed mages, I think it depends on what their other class is. At least some of them can use certain kinds of armor (such as elven chainmail).

In the Pools games human dual classes Fighter/Mages could not cast spells while wearing armour (except elfin chain, maybe), but multi-classed demi-humans didn't have the same restriction.
I think the demi-humans in the Krynn games can cast spells while wearing armour too (my memory is hazy and I can't check since I last played the Krynn games using an Amiga emulator on my old computer).

 

[TigerKnee]

Since this is a Krynn topic I might as well ask my question here

If I'm lazy and want to play only one game with a fresh party, which one should it be?

 

[octavius]

Since this is a Krynn topic I might as well ask my question here

If I'm lazy and want to play only one game with a fresh party, which one should it be?

Only one? Probably Death Knights of Krynn. It is a very good all round game, with varied encounters, an open world with many side quests to explore and nice story line, and unlike Dark Queen it takes place in the core Dragonlance area.
If you're a combatfag wanting a challenge try Dark Queen instead.

 

[Bizarro Jimmy Olsen]

Demi-human Mage/* multi-classed can indeed wear full plate mail and still cast spells no problem. Multi-classed thieves can't backstab in anything heavier than leather, though.

 

[kmonster]

Since this is a Krynn topic I might as well ask my question here

If I'm lazy and want to play only one game with a fresh party, which one should it be?

Play the first. The sequel feels like a sequel and part 3 is too big for lazy players.

 

[Dorateen]

Hmmph. The only real dwarves are Mountain Dwarves.

Seriously, Hill Dwarves have higher minimum constitutions and slightly higher strength in exchange for a lower maximum charisma... Besides that, the manual's kind of ambiguous about whether mountain dwarves get the same secondary racial traits (bonus to attack goblins, dodge vs. ogres y giants, resistances). Is that personal preference or is there something I'm missing?

Strictly a role-playing decision.

Although for the record, in the context of the Dragonlance history post-Cataclysm, the Mountain Dwarves were justified in the Dwarfgate War conflict. But that's another subject.

In the Gold Box games, I don't think it makes much difference.

 

[Erebus]

unlike Dark Queen it takes place in the core Dragonlance area.

I wish Taladas had been used more often ; it's not the most unique D&D setting ever, but it's fairly interesting. Aside from DQK, a few adventures were set there and also a trilogy of novels published around 2005, but little more.