Baldur's Gate Let's DISCUSS Infinity Engine combat and Baldur's Gate with random noobs

[Azarkon]

-Imoen's banter in 1 is minimal, even with restoration patches. She was included almost at the end of the development process after all.

What a lot of people don't know is that this was also the case in BG 2. For much of the BG 2 development process, it was planned that Imoen dies in Spellhold, and given that she was missing for 90% of the game before Spellhold, few dialogue interactions were actually recorded for her.

They scrapped that idea late into production, but didn't have time to add back all the lost dialogue interactions, resulting in a character that didn't talk to the rest of the party for the bulk of the game.

 

[octavius]

Yet another reason to have Imoen get chunked in the one (?) unavoidable trap in the game...

 

[MilesBeyond]

What a lot of people don't know is that this was also the case in BG 2. For much of the BG 2 development process, it was planned that Imoen dies in Spellhold, and given that she was missing for 90% of the game before Spellhold, few dialogue interactions were actually recorded for her.

They scrapped that idea late into production, but didn't have time to add back all the lost dialogue interactions, resulting in a character that didn't talk to the rest of the party for the bulk of the game.

Imoen is, to me, one of the most fascinating characters. I mean not the NPC herself but rather the story behind her. Apparently Imoen was supposed to be a guard, but then at the very last minute someone decided that the game might be too tough for RPG beginners and so they made her an NPC so that CHARNAME has a guaranteed buddy right out of the gate. IIRC Imoen's voiceset is just things the guard would say mixed with audio files from the voice actress's audition, but I could be wrong on that point. So she's not even supposed to be there at all, she's just been awkwardly shoe-horned in.

Then fast-forward to BG2. The devs didn't like Imoen and weren't planning on including her at all, but apparently fans loved her enough that they decided to put her in. So, they went with what you said - dies in Spellhold. There's backlash against this too and later on they grudgingly decide to let her live (because for some reason all the fans love Imoen).

Apparently her whole "getting brutally tortured" thing literally came about because Bioware didn't like her.


The guard who became an NPC. The NPC who became a Bhaalspawn. The Bhaalspawn who defied a dev team.

 

[pippin]

Just one detail: if I remember correctly, the devs put Imoen there because the game needed more thiefs at the beginning. My guess is that most players would feel more comfortable with supporting Khalid and Jaheira rather than Xzar and Monty, since your own stepdad told you so. Imoen is a decent thief after all, and better than any other.

I'm quite sure fans love her because of the fanfiction. I've been told Bioware added romances because they realized the effect the characters' relationship had in general among the fanbase.

 

[MilesBeyond]

Just one detail: if I remember correctly, the devs put Imoen there because the game needed more thiefs at the beginning. My guess is that most players would feel more comfortable with supporting Khalid and Jaheira rather than Xzar and Monty, since your own stepdad told you so. Imoen is a decent thief after all, and better than any other.

I'm quite sure fans love her because of the fanfiction. I've been told Bioware added romances because they realized the effect the characters' relationship had in general among the fanbase.

Riiiight, yeah, the thieving was a part of it too. I remember now. Originally designed to be a Fighter, I think, but switched to make sure new players don't get split open on traps. Seems a little funny when you're more experienced with the game - considering the massive amount of Thieves and all - but most of them are pretty out of the way and aren't necessarily something a first time player would run into. Without Imoen I guess you'd be stuck with Montaron until you bump into Safana. Stuck with might be the wrong term - I actually love Montaron, and F/Ts in general. Really versatile combination. Xan was also originally meant to be a Fighter but was made an Enchanter - I'm assuming because there weren't any Neutral Mages (other than Quayle...).

That second bit I actually didn't know, but considering how many RPG romances feel like ascended fan-fiction, it's not really all that surprising...

 

[Morality Games]

I'll try bg 2 soon. I hear it's an RPG. I'll make my last post to say I never said Darklands wasnt repetitive I said that those three games engaged me as a player. These are all opinions, Jesus. I guess this topic is a dead horse circa 2015 though. It does bother me that criticizing BG for dullness gets me labeled popamole. Enjoy your echo chamber faggots.

If you had just noted BG1 sucked in some random thread no one would have commented on it, it's a safe enough sentiment for what started as a Fallout/Arcanum/Tim Cain fan community. Maybe one or two Codexers in the history of the Codex have put BG1 forth being the best of the Infinity Engine games, but in a thread where that's the OP, its a lightening rod for for anyone who feels mildly positive about BG1 to go up to bat for the game that often gets shit on.

 

[Goblino]

For all the praises I've read on it, BG1 needs to get shit on more often. Google it and you'll find assclowns the world over 9/10 it for being old and labeled as rpg. I don't particularly hate it, but it's still an awfully boring game to get a wave of praise so high that they rereleased it with new classes that dont do shit til the second game.

 

[GlutenBurger]

Then fast-forward to BG2. The devs didn't like Imoen and weren't planning on including her at all, but apparently fans loved her enough that they decided to put her in. So, they went with what you said - dies in Spellhold. There's backlash against this too and later on they grudgingly decide to let her live (because for some reason all the fans love Imoen).

Why did they reveal during development that Imoen was going to die halfway through the game?

 

[Abelian]

in a thread where that's the OP

This thread was split off from a Serpent in the Staglands thread by a mod, thus explaining the attention-grabbing title.

 

[ArchAngel]

For all the praises I've read on it, BG1 needs to get shit on more often. Google it and you'll find assclowns the world over 9/10 it for being old and labeled as rpg. I don't particularly hate it, but it's still an awfully boring game to get a wave of praise so high that they rereleased it with new classes that dont do shit til the second game.

that just means your taste is shitty if you don't like it.

 

[Animal]

The problem with Imoen in BG1 is that she says stupid shit and seeing as they keep repeating themselves over and over, it gets old sometimes.

"Tell me a story", "Puffguts would tell me a story" ...

But, it's really not that problematic... The whining in the beginning of BG2 is a bit worse.

 

[Innsmouth Dweller]

@OP:
I play games to have fun. Complex mechanics is fun. Equations, spreadsheets and theorycrafting is fun. More fun than guns, fast, player-centric action, and/or spookies. That's precisely why I find Fear or Stalker boring as hell.
Let's not forget there is more than one way to have fun.

And I'm not saying I like BG1's mechanics. Or the story. Or the exploration... or pretty much anything. It's still much more fun than Fear.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Compare that to PoE - Which takes the same exact level design (Flat Outdoor areas) and STUFFS them with trash encounters. Your every step uncovers a pack of ogres or dragons or whatever, no room to breathe, no anticipation of what you might find.. Just shit after shit to kill for no reason.

So they took a few clues from IWD.

Baldur's Gate > Fallout

Baldur's Gate > Grilled Cheese Sandwich

 

[Immortal]

Compare that to PoE - Which takes the same exact level design (Flat Outdoor areas) and STUFFS them with trash encounters. Your every step uncovers a pack of ogres or dragons or whatever, no room to breathe, no anticipation of what you might find.. Just shit after shit to kill for no reason.

So they took a few clues from IWD.

Except IWD was fun.

 

[ArchAngel]

Compare that to PoE - Which takes the same exact level design (Flat Outdoor areas) and STUFFS them with trash encounters. Your every step uncovers a pack of ogres or dragons or whatever, no room to breathe, no anticipation of what you might find.. Just shit after shit to kill for no reason.

So they took a few clues from IWD.

Except IWD was fun.

PoE is fun as well but it is not the next cumming of cRPG Jesus that some people expected.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Except IWD was fun.

In short playsessions, otherwise the illusion breaks and you realize the game basically plays itself.

Combat-heavy sections of PoE play very similar to IWD. FWIW, I consider them to be the more fun sections of PoE (maybe it's just because there are fewer loading screens).

 

[Animal]

IWD and BG combat > PoE combat.

PoE combat relies on filler "per encounter" skills that force you to unload all that crap if you wish to delay the resting moments (also forced, because of the resting supplies limitations).

It reminds me of playing MMOs like WoW, where you are constantly pressing abilities on cooldowns. Playing with auto attacks and trying to figure out when to spend your spells and "per rest" abilities, makes for a more strategic approach, instead of making you feel like you are working in an assembly line.

Fuck filler, repetitive play.

 

[Immortal]

IWD has heart and soul.. Anyone who didn't get immense feels when they first enter kulduhar is dead on the inside.

 

[ArchAngel]

Except IWD was fun.

In short playsessions, otherwise the illusion breaks and you realize the game basically plays itself.

Combat-heavy sections of PoE play very similar to IWD. FWIW, I consider them to be the more fun sections of PoE (maybe it's just because there are fewer loading screens).

How does it play itself? IWD was always harder than BG1 and using AI scripts meant lots of dying.

 

[Immortal]

Except IWD was fun.

In short playsessions, otherwise the illusion breaks and you realize the game basically plays itself.

Combat-heavy sections of PoE play very similar to IWD. FWIW, I consider them to be the more fun sections of PoE (maybe it's just because there are fewer loading screens).

How does it play itself? IWD was always harder than BG1 and using AI scripts meant lots of dying.

BG 1 wasn't hard save for a few fights.. Don't get IWD and IWD2 confused with your rose tinted glasses.. IWD can be very easy depending how you play (I'm not even including the cheese)

 

[ArchAngel]

Except IWD was fun.

In short playsessions, otherwise the illusion breaks and you realize the game basically plays itself.

Combat-heavy sections of PoE play very similar to IWD. FWIW, I consider them to be the more fun sections of PoE (maybe it's just because there are fewer loading screens).

How does it play itself? IWD was always harder than BG1 and using AI scripts meant lots of dying.

BG 1 wasn't hard save for a few fights.. Don't get IWD and IWD2 confused with your rose tinted glasses.. IWD can be very easy depending how you play (I'm not even including the cheese)

It was for most people in their first play. I don't care how easy it is too you in your 20th play.

 

[Immortal]

Except IWD was fun.

In short playsessions, otherwise the illusion breaks and you realize the game basically plays itself.

Combat-heavy sections of PoE play very similar to IWD. FWIW, I consider them to be the more fun sections of PoE (maybe it's just because there are fewer loading screens).

How does it play itself? IWD was always harder than BG1 and using AI scripts meant lots of dying.

BG 1 wasn't hard save for a few fights.. Don't get IWD and IWD2 confused with your rose tinted glasses.. IWD can be very easy depending how you play (I'm not even including the cheese)

It was for most people in their first play. I don't care how easy it is too you in your 20th play.

No really.. I didn't find IWD hard my first time through. The difficulty curve starts very low. You are literally fighting goblins with a full group of 6 members who are likely built optimally assuming you can read character sheet descriptions.. As opposed to BG 1 where you play large chunks of the game with half a party of very sub-optimal characters (who will sometimes abandon you or fight each other resulting in you losing key roles or classes)

Did I breeze through IWD with ZERO resistance? No. There was always Gotcha's along the way but I wasn't like breaking a sweat either, outside of certain bosses and encounters IWD was not challenging..
IWD 2 was much more challenging. Almost too challenging for someone who hasn't played an IE game before I would argue..

 

[Animal]

IWD2 = best RTwP experience I had.

It's also cool if you are coming in after reading Drizzt's books, like I did.

 

[Immortal]

IWD2 = best RTwP experience I had.

It's also cool if you are coming in after reading Drizzt's books, like I did.

IWD2 = Best combat experience..

However I definitely enjoyed the dialogue / city heavy quests of BG 2 / 1 .. and the feels of IWD.. Being trapped in a desolate snowy wasteland where the only habitable safe place is a long forgotten village under a large tree. Some of my favorite NPC's and quests were the starting ones in Kulduhar with the wizard and weenog the goblin apprentice and the halfling who takes over the inn etc etc.

IWD 2 is great.. but the plot definitely reflects it's development time. I would consider it the perfect example of Sawyer being used effectively. You put Josh inside a box of some per-determined rules and let him use his sperg strengths to their full potential and you get a great combat experience without all the baggage.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

I'm pretty sure they were directed to sound like that. Bioware and Black Isle shared a lot of voice actors and they sound significantly better in games made by the latter.

Yeah, the best example of this is that Morte and Anomen are the same voice actor. Blew my mind when I learned that.