Let's Play VtM: Night Empire

[Storyfag]

Actually, I was more worried of them spilling information on our secret hidey hole in Whitehurst Wittanhurst.

Well, if we set them up in a safehouse (perhaps our old home in Primrose Hill? Antonia's apartment?) then it's a moot point. They wouldn't even know about a secret entrance to begin with. I agree wholeheartedly with Random Word's uh... words.

We've already gotten some sort of a lead on Mandrake, perhaps our guys will be able to sniff this dude out.

Arright, scratch placing the team in Witanhurst in favor of providing them with a different safehouse.

Tempted to tell Turcov to shove it, but agree that we don't want to appear petty and squabbling. I don't think the Archon personally cares one way or the other about the actual security.

I guess there isn't too much harm in letting Eddie guard the Archon for a little while. Might even make a good impression. What is Eddie doing at present? Will Eddie be able to let us know any interesting things going down around the Archon?

He did send us a text messege to come to the Archon's penthouse...

 

[laclongquan]

Safehouse is not a problem. In term of financial and Kine connection, Anthony is rich. As evidenced by the place where the team and Edgar stayed and trained for a long time now. If there's problem with that, we can find another place pretty damn quick. The question has always been whether we move them to our base at Wittanhurst.

Primrose is a bachelor pad. One or at most three people might stay there at ease but I doubt a squad and Eddie fit. with Antonia still in residence, of course.

Anyway, why not say and proceed with BBBB. Sacrifice our own firepower just because another Ventrue successfully maneurve us... bah.

Anyway, thinking about a Toreador double spy like Eddie? Not bloody likely. A Ventrue or Tremere, perhaps. A Torrie? How about no?

 

[Storyfag]

Anyway, why not say :fu: and proceed with BBBB.

We already told you why not. Redding is teh hard?

Anyway, thinking about a Toreador double spy like Eddie? Not bloody likely. A Ventrue or Tremere, perhaps. A Torrie? How about no?

You have yet much wod-fu to learn. Eddie is the one trusted Kindred we have remaining. He's kept Team Wistman hidden for so long. If we can be sure of anything these nights, it's that he sees cooperation with us as right up his alley.

 

[Excidium]

Hey Storyfag, feel free to update your LP anytime.

 

[oscar]

B

 

[Esquilax]

People, you are letting your emotions cloud your judgment here. Yes, we don't like Turcov, yes, he is trying to manipulate us, but so fucking what? Being so blunt and engaging in an argument over something as trivial as a bodyguard in an entourage is precisely the sort of thing that the man who gets to decide whether we keep our job or not will find petty and endemic of exactly what's wrong with the London Camarilla.

Anyway, why not say :fu: and proceed with BBBB. Sacrifice our own firepower just because another Ventrue successfully maneurve us... bah.

Fine, I'll give you the rundown for why giving Eddie to Iacomo's personal entourage is a good idea:

1) The best possible use we have for Eddie is to have him keep a watch on Turcov. While betrayal is possible, Eddie has been with us for so long that I am pretty sure he's solid. Besides, if he's not loyal, he's going to betray us at some point and leave us for Turcov's service regardless - we might as well know where we stand sooner rather than later. Even better, Eddie is also very tactful and a good ambassador for us - his presence with the Archon will reflect very well on Anthony.

2) Operation Wistman is designed for daytime strikes against vampires, so Eddie is pretty much useless as firepower. If he stays, simple bodyguard work would be a horrendous waste of his talent. OK, so you want him to stay with us? Fine. But then if he stays with Anthony, what the hell would you have him do? Having him around Iacomo is the best use of his talents.

3) We can't start quarreling with our fellow Baron (and Primogen) over something as trivial as an entourage in front of the very same Archon who told you to shut the fuck up, keep your head down, and avoid scheming. Especially when he's five feet away from us.

4) Worse yet, Turcov is the Ventrue primogen and the man who gave us our Barony, so insubordination in front of a man like the Archon will come off as spoiled arrogance.

5) It lets Turcov feel that he's got one over us. He'll believe that he has the advantage and it'll lull him into a false sense of security. In the meantime, we'll be off making a few friends within the SIS to find us a few Sabbat dens and forging an alliance with Frank Briggs. Don't let a minor annoyance like what Turcov is doing here distract you from what our overarching goal is: to forge alliances and make ourselves look good to our fellow Barons so that we can eventually become Seneschal. That's what it's all about.

Here's the problem with the mentality of B: you guys think that by letting Iacomo have Eddie we're giving something up. Rather than seeing it as losing Eddie, I look at the opportunity that it provides: we now have the opportunity to let Turcov think he's actually accomplished something, we've let the Archon know that everything he's heard about us being a foolish upstart is untrue because we've shown that we're willing to be a team player, and we've gained the opportunity to use our best Kindred asset to spy on our rival and curry favour with the man who has the means to let us keep Whitehall and propel us even further in status.

 

[ironyuri]

Bros,

Just to weigh into this debate and make some additions:

1. The Archon (Iacomo) has indicated that he does not "give a fig" for Turcov's lip service. He doesn't want someone to go hunting the Society of Leopold, he wants them found so that he can pay them a personal visit. Tony has the means to track down hunters (government information networks), let's start finding out where they're hiding. This is a similar narrative structure to the Ranngian affair, and Turcov is playing the role of du Marchais. He only knows how to pay lip service and try to get ahead. He's not going to win Iacomo over with that, because Iacomo is too clever for that- he basically indicated he sees through Turcov's lip service... which leads me to point #2.

2. Turcov has just offered the Archon a 'ghoul-squad' for protection during the day, but also, Anthony's right-hand man as a liaison/bodyguard. Turcov can get ghouls anywhere, but he's not giving up any of his kindred resources, of which he has many more than Sommers, to the Archon. The archon will no doubt see through this, and grow to dislike Turcov even moreso. Turcov is giving away someone elses resources and very little of his own. By giving up Fellowes, Sommers isn't paying lip-service, he's bowing to the superior wisdom of his elders, and by offering Fellowes, the Archon can always a) refuse, causing Turcov to lose face and Anthony to gain face (Turcov made the offer on our behalf); b) accept, which means we have a loyal compatriot at the Archon's side (which will be worse for Turcov) (and remember Fellowes has indicated his loyalty twice now, he told us Turcov was courting him, and he also let us know Turcov was meeting the Archon tonight, Sommers and Fellowes are both high humanity vampires and will have more human ideas of camraderie and friendship. Fellowes and Sommers have cemented a bond, and I don't see it being so easily broken, yet.) c) accept, but we lose Fellowes to the greater powers., but not the image of having given up a resource for the good of the Camarilla (what the Archon requires of all current barons). This follows to my third point:

3. If we don't give up Fellowes, Turcov will start looking for him. Fuck that. We need to keep our ghouls secret, at least we need to keep their ghoul training secret. If we move them to Witanhurst, we can just pretend they're security ghouls. No one need know how highly trained they are.

4. One of my worries is, Turcov has offered the Archon a ghoul-squad for his protection in the day-time. If we give Fellowes to Iacomo, that means both Fellowes and the Archon are HOSTAGE to Turcov while in torpor. He could kill the Archon, or Fellowes at any time. There would be consequences, of course, but effectively this is hostage politics. Turcov would gain control of the Archon's security during torpor. That's bad news if the wind starts blowing against Turcov, and a good thing if we have someone loyal watching the Archon who can remain vigilant (auspex) and ensure his security.

5. Tony has Cripps for personal security. Fellowes going to the Archon won't make Anthony any more vulnerable.

6. The ghoul-squad should not be used against hunters. They've been trained to fight vampires. If we send them against humans, the blood bond might be strong, but they may begin to question what they're doing. These are highly trained, highly intelligent soldiers. Don't make them do a job they're not trained to do, because they will question orders. We use them for what they're meant for and when it's necessary. I like the idea of telling them Fellowes is going to be looking for a mission for them while he's away and that Sommers will be looking after them in the meantime. At the very least we can build a stronger bond with them and discipline them more thoroughly using presence.

7. When will we start building our stock portfolio?

8. the Mandrake article was put in by the editor due to coersion. That means quite possibly, that Hunters have gotten to the editor, like they did the Archbishops in the prologue (meta game knowledge). We can infer that pressure was applied, that means we need to get a hold of the editor personally and dominate/presence him into telling us what happened with the article. We need to find out as soon as possible who and why the article was placed in the paper, leaving it to Humphrey could take weeks, one use of dominate and we'd have the knowledge of why it was done (even if the editor says some chump called him in his office and threatened his family we'd have something to go on, time of phonecall could be relayed to SIS to track back the location call made from etc). If Mandrake and the Society of Leopold are connected, finding them quickly could really show the Archon that Sommers means business, or we could give the info to Vogler to pass on, OR we could tell the Archon then Vogler could go in with the Archon and rip their throats out... there are alot of possibilities here.

And since I haven't voted yet, I'm voting A.

 

[SCO]

A.

 

[oscar]

Sound reasoning, flipping to A.

 

[Storyfag]

6. The ghoul-squad should not be used against hunters. They've been trained to fight vampires. If we send them against humans, the blood bond might be strong, but they may begin to question what they're doing. These are highly trained, highly intelligent soldiers. Don't make them do a job they're not trained to do, because they will question orders. We use them for what they're meant for and when it's necessary. I like the idea of telling them Fellowes is going to be looking for a mission for them while he's away and that Sommers will be looking after them in the meantime. At the very least we can build a stronger bond with them and discipline them more thoroughly using presence.

This. We really ought to keep this in mind, Bros.

 

[Hellraiser]

Just to make it clear, I am voting A)

Like I said Turcov won the (minor) battle but he has not won the war yet.

 

[laclongquan]

The question is not whether Eddie can be trusted. He can. The question is that whether he will be a spy. He wont. He might be a spymaster, a gosship gatherer, a information gleaning harpy, but he wouldnt stoop himself to the task of a spy.

Dont believe me? Let see wiki on WOD say about this tendency:

The Art of Manipulation: Toreador in the Jyhad
Few Toreador regard performing the menial tasks of hunting, theft, blackmail, or assassination to be on par with their class. All that mucking around, and for what? A broken nail and having the Nosferatu primogen angry at you? No, no. Many, if not most Toreador prefer to act through as many layers of proxies as they can assemble, with the vampire at the center of the web tugging on the heartstrings of their minions. Aside from presenting a much smaller risk to their own hides, the more social Toreador regard such manipulation as as fine an art as sculpture or dance. If one wishes to influence the Prince, then it is so very crass to actually go up and talk to the man. It is far more elegant to ingratiate onself into the Prince's herd, and gradually turn their loyalty over to the Toreador, who can whisper words into a few ears that will, by social osmosis, eventually come to the Prince's attention. If the proposed idea is not found acceptable, then it is the proxy's neck in the noose, and the Toreador can then throw their support behind (or pretend to throw their support behind) the opposition, bring it down from the inside, and leave the Prince no choice but to act according to the Toreador's original whim.

http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofd...reador_(Vampire:_The_Masquerade)#Organization

In short, if there's one thing that will lower our own Anthony's standing in Edgar Fellowes' eyes, it's the asking of him to be a mere.... 'spy'.

EDIT: and why the hell do you guys think Turcov has won this maneurve? He set the stage well, I grant it, but the one decide its victory is the Archon. IF he find that our resistance to the idea of providing more guards to cramp his own style pleasing to the cockles of his heart, why, he will deny Turcov's motion on the spot and the man got eggs on his face.

 

[CappenVarra]

All right, you bros make a convincing case and found the right way to turn the situation to our advantage: skywaying to A).

 

[ironyuri]

The question is not whether Eddie can be trusted. He can. The question is that whether he will be a spy. He wont. He might be a spymaster, a gosship gatherer, a information gleaning harpy, but he wouldnt stoop himself to the task of a spy.

Dont believe me? Let see wiki on WOD say about this tendency:

The Art of Manipulation: Toreador in the Jyhad
Few Toreador regard performing the menial tasks of hunting, theft, blackmail, or assassination to be on par with their class. All that mucking around, and for what? A broken nail and having the Nosferatu primogen angry at you? No, no. Many, if not most Toreador prefer to act through as many layers of proxies as they can assemble, with the vampire at the center of the web tugging on the heartstrings of their minions. Aside from presenting a much smaller risk to their own hides, the more social Toreador regard such manipulation as as fine an art as sculpture or dance. If one wishes to influence the Prince, then it is so very crass to actually go up and talk to the man. It is far more elegant to ingratiate onself into the Prince's herd, and gradually turn their loyalty over to the Toreador, who can whisper words into a few ears that will, by social osmosis, eventually come to the Prince's attention. If the proposed idea is not found acceptable, then it is the proxy's neck in the noose, and the Toreador can then throw their support behind (or pretend to throw their support behind) the opposition, bring it down from the inside, and leave the Prince no choice but to act according to the Toreador's original whim.

http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php?title=Toreador_(Vampire:_The_Masquerade)#Organization

In short, if there's one thing that will lower our own Anthony's standing in Edgar Fellowes' eyes, it's the asking of him to be a mere.... 'spy'.

EDIT: and why the hell do you guys think Turcov has won this maneurve? He set the stage well, I grant it, but the one decide its victory is the Archon. IF he find that our resistance to the idea of providing more guards to cramp his own style pleasing to the cockles of his heart, why, he will deny Turcov's motion on the spot and the man got eggs on his face.

Lac, the argument in favour of A is in that link you posted. We're not asking Edgar to spy, we're asking him to ingratiate himself into the Archon's [Prince's] herd, and gradually turn their loyalty over to the Fellowes (and by extension to Sommers), who can whisper words into a few ears that will, by social osmosis, eventually come to the Kingmaker's [Prince's] attention. If the proposed idea is not found acceptable, then it is the proxy's neck in the noose, and the Toreador can then throw their support behind (or pretend to throw their support behind) the opposition, bring it down from the inside, and leave the Prince no choice but to act according to the Toreador's original whim.

All Fellowes needs to do, is be a BRO to the Archon while he's in town, use his natural charm and presence to keep the Archon on-side, without kissing ass (which Fellowes has never done, because he is not a sycophant). I remember reading something about auspex being active even in Torpor, or is that just for Methuselahs? Either way, if Fellowes doesn't need to go into Torpor (if we keep him supplied with blood), he just needs to stay vigilant and use auspex to weed our any threats to the Archon, while just chilling. If we require it of him, he could pretend he's working secretly for Turcov and then kiss the Archon's ass and make Turcov look like a jackass.

I don't see Fellowes getting further than Tony on his own. Fellowes, IIRC is a 13th gen Toreador, embraced in 60s/70s Soho. He's a sociable, but also slightly old fashioned London gangster from the original mod scene was the impression I got. Kind of like a more charismatic, less psychotic Kray twin.

 

[Gondolin]

A) it is. Good thinking, ironyuri.

 

[laclongquan]

So long as that understood. I hate to see you guys mismanage the resource you commit to your folly. Make Archon slightly more impressed with Anthony, but not to be a spy.

But if you commit Edgar to that, might as well draw the squad into Anthony's direct management. Not through Cripps, as his Nos face may cause them going postal on his ass and we are out some hitters.

Still and all, this is intermission, not decisive actions of this night.

With wittman under Tony's management, we really have to find a worthwhile Sabbat target or worthwhile 'evil' target to expend them on that soon. Tony dont have much spare time to babysit those overgrown murderous kids.

 

[Sergiu64]

Yeah, I guess my vote is A.

 

[grotsnik]

If I haven't already mentioned it (I may have, my memory's failing in my old age), I named the Wistman Project after Wistman's Wood, a magnificently tangled and eerie-looking old wood back home in the West Country, beloved by folklore nuts/damn hippies for its associations with ancient paganism, the Wild Hunt, and an old road called the 'Lychway', i.e., Dead Road.

So damned cool.

 

[SCO]

Werewolves?

 

[Excidium]

That looks amazing!

Werewolves?

Probably, I bet it's a Fianna caern there.

 

[Random Word]

It's worth noting that the Archon isn't interested in a bodyguard, but he IS interested in an investigator. Turcov himself opened the door to this. As a variant on A, we could offer the services of Fellowes in tracking down the perpetrators, rather than as a bodyguard.

 

[Gondolin]

Not only Fellowes', but also our own. We're interested in this hunters business anyway.

 

[Excidium]

Yeah, it affects Anthony directly with that mandrake business. We got a lot of hints that hunters are preparing some sort of campaign in London, we better start worrying about them.

 

[Esquilax]

7. When will we start building our stock portfolio?

Now that we're working towards a few banking connections, perhaps it's time to make use of an individual that we've talked very little about, Mr. William Horn.

8. the Mandrake article was put in by the editor due to coersion. That means quite possibly, that Hunters have gotten to the editor, like they did the Archbishops in the prologue (meta game knowledge). We can infer that pressure was applied, that means we need to get a hold of the editor personally and dominate/presence him into telling us what happened with the article. We need to find out as soon as possible who and why the article was placed in the paper, leaving it to Humphrey could take weeks, one use of dominate and we'd have the knowledge of why it was done (even if the editor says some chump called him in his office and threatened his family we'd have something to go on, time of phonecall could be relayed to SIS to track back the location call made from etc). If Mandrake and the Society of Leopold are connected, finding them quickly could really show the Archon that Sommers means business, or we could give the info to Vogler to pass on, OR we could tell the Archon then Vogler could go in with the Archon and rip their throats out... there are alot of possibilities here.

Excellent post. I believe that Vogler should take the credit for every victory we achieve in the coming nights. His little performance with the Archon a few nights ago was a thing of brilliance and it's opened up a few opportunities for us. Since Iacomo is now under the impression that Vogler is passive and content to let Anthony take the reins, the Archon will naturally assume that we played a large part in anything Vogler is claiming credit for. This move will arouse no envy among the other Barons and it will make our candidate popular; if it's our candidate, and not us, who found that Hunter cell/Sabbat den/Giovanni account then we're not a threat to anybody and we don't put their positions at risk.

Instead of laying a victory at Iacomo's feet, saying we were responsible for it, and alienating the other Barons further, we can say that Vogler was responsible for the success of whatever we were doing. The beauty of it is that while it won't threaten the other Barons, at the same time, Iacomo is a shrewd guy who will immediately realize that we were probably a lot more involved than we were letting on. In fact, he'll probably be aware of exactly what it is we're doing and respect our political acumen in shutting the fuck up.

 

[Gondolin]

I don't think the London kindred would take seriously the idea of a Gangrel finding a Giovanni bank account. :D