Let's Play VtM: Wild Nights - Chapter 10

[Vibalist]

At this point I have no idea what to vote, so I'll leave it to people who have more of a clue than me.

Just disregard my earlier vote.

 

[laclongquan]

Ventrue, by their nature and skills, are politicians of vampires. Therefore, they lie almost continuously. At least, any one dealing with them must operate on that assumption.

I said this to assure people that although LYING IS BAD for most, for Ventrue it's just business as usual so people wont get mad much over that.

So why do we care about Ventrue's words? You ask.

We dont. Look at their actions and results. And by that criteria, Sommers is one impressive lying son of blueblood. Oh yeah. Anarchs are impressed with him, Tremere want to use him, Torreador is friend, Nosferatu is trusted associate, and Malkavian is just plain fascinated with the bugger.

 

[SCO]

I can see your political acumen could be a bit better. Politicians lie when it won't affect them, by proxy, and to people that they feel they can ignore or blackmail into accepting the lie.

None of which applies.

 

[laclongquan]

Now who is speaking gobbledegook here?

 

[SCO]

Whatever.

Suggest investigating the vaulderie, since you'll not be able to lie soon anyway.

 

[Esquilax]

More so, it is clear from the way Grotsnik wrote it that we would simply and calmly be saying no to her proposal. That in turn may invite further negotiation.
This isn't Shepard's dialog wheel. You don't choose "No" and the character starts shouting profanities and death threats.
No means just that - no. The baroness didn't say: "Either you're with me or against me !". She said: "This is my proposal."
If we say no, the most probable reaction from her will be: "Do you have a better plan ?" and "What part of my proposal made you say no ?"

Of course the Baroness didn't say "either you're with me or against me!" because she is far too subtle and clever for that sort of thing. Instead, she played it smart and got a hold of Oscar while we were incommunicado with him, and then fed us some of her own vitae a little while ago in order to wrap her fingers around us further. She probably won't kill us - her style appears to be more about control and manipulation instead of outright force. So what I'm saying is, why not let her think she's in control for now? That way, she'll be dependent on us to be the ones to initiate her plan, at which point we can turn the tables on her. If we openly disagree with her now, she'll probably go ahead with her plan regardless (she implied as much). We may as well have her do it under our terms, no?

And yes, the most probable reaction will be the questions you mentioned: "Do you have a better plan?" and "What part of my proposal made you say no?" Okay, so what the fuck are we going to say? Obviously, the biggest sticking point is this Sheriff situation. Personally, the blood bond thing isn't as big a deal because I think that our assassination will work and we can learn the Vaulderie, but how are we going to convince her to keep Erika around? Hell, one of the biggest reasons we decided to fake our own deaths was to keep things cool with Erika so Donnie wouldn't have to kill her people to attract the Sabbat's attention. We've invested a lot of work in getting Schiller on our side, and I really don't want to lose her.

Keeping Erika around is pretty much non-negotiable, in my opinion. Perhaps we can offer the Cathayan info on Rannigan in exchange for her keeping Schiller around? But then again, I am not sure if she will honor such a deal.

Anarchs are impressed with him, Tremere want to use him, Torreador is friend, Nosferatu is trusted associate, and Malkavian is just plain fascinated with the bugger.

Hahah, are you serious? You are really overestimating the loyalty of those around us - Oscar is a trusted associate now?! Get your ego in check - we have fucking nobody and can't trust anybody for certain. Look at a quote from the update:

You gaze down at your cards. They're a lot weaker than you'd care to admit.

Hint, hint. You are fucking dreaming if you don't think lying and then making a public statement different than the one we agreed to will not piss Sammy off completely. She won't think "lol, those wacky Ventrue! Always promising one thing and doing another!", she'll think "this motherfucker lied to me, time to kill him"

The question isn't whether or not she'll be mad (she will), it's whether you think we can handle what she'll throw at us afterward. I think that if we take a strong stand in supporting the Prince's moves, encourage a crackdown on war-time dissent, then leverage our fame into forming an army of younger Kindred and perhaps a few Anarchs to support us, it might cow Eames into submission.* I think it's a sound plan. Ultimately, it doesn't matter to me at all who leads, but rather which leader is of the most benefit to us. Considering that the Prince doesn't have a bloodbond on us and we'll have a trusted Sheriff in place with him in charge, I'm going with Kirkbeck.

* Also, it's important to note that the Tremere are the most rabidly anti-Sabbat clan in the Camarilla. Even if Eames hates us for betraying her, I don't see how she'd be able to put her whole clan against us. If anything, they might find her lack of "patriotism" for the Camarilla cause a bit suspicious. She's well-known for being disdainful of the Prince: if we can spin the narrative in such a way that we can equate war-time dissent with being a Sabbat sympathizer, it would put her on the defensive.

@ root: Yeah, absolutely the political bullshit is completely distracting us, but that is totally unavoidable. We were ignoring political bullshit when du Marchais was around, then we got dragged right back into it. If we cripple the Sabbat and rise in status within the Camarilla, we can afford to look for more clues about Rannigan. Until this horseshit is dealt with, the politics will keep dragging us back time and time again.

 

[laclongquan]

It's not about loyalty as such, it's about the personal charisma, the usefulness, the exciting factor that Sommers assert to his associates.

And the phrase concerned Oscar is a mis-post on my part. I mean Oscar trust Sommers to some extent, not vice versa. Come on, we are Ventrue, outside of our own skin who would we trust? Nobody, that's who. But Oscar know that we dont sell our associates. Drag into deep shits Ventrue style, yes. Sell, no.

That's why I propose to turn Oscar now. In true Ventrue's way, we turn our own warden to our side.

 

[Excidium]

Damn, Jamieson is taking some mad pain for us.
:brofist: in his honor.

Hah, he's probably enjoying himself immensily.

 

[SCO]

Of course the Baroness didn't say "either you're with me or against me!" because she is far too subtle and clever for that sort of thing. Instead, she played it smart and got a hold of Oscar while we were incommunicado with him, and then fed us some of her own vitae a little while ago in order to wrap her fingers around us further. She probably won't kill us - her style appears to be more about control and manipulation instead of outright force. So what I'm saying is, why not let her think she's in control for now? That way, she'll be dependent on us to be the ones to initiate her plan, at which point we can turn the tables on her. If we openly disagree with her now, she'll probably go ahead with her plan regardless (she implied as much). We may as well have her do it under our terms, no?

And yes, the most probable reaction will be the questions you mentioned: "Do you have a better plan?" and "What part of my proposal made you say no?" Okay, so what the fuck are we going to say? Obviously, the biggest sticking point is this Sheriff situation. Personally, the blood bond thing isn't as big a deal because I think that our assassination will work and we can learn the Vaulderie, but how are we going to convince her to keep Erika around? Hell, one of the biggest reasons we decided to fake our own deaths was to keep things cool with Erika so Donnie wouldn't have to kill her people to attract the Sabbat's attention. We've invested a lot of work in getting Schiller on our side, and I really don't want to lose her.

A useful suggestion: make her blood bond the sheriff (if she isn't already HO HO HO).

This will ENRAGE her, and make her a easy target for the vaulderie suggestion, while allowing her to survive (if we manage to get through the bond before she loves the woman utterly that is).

It all comes down to lesbian romance eventually.

 

[Kz3r0]

A useful suggestion: make her blood bond the sheriff (if she isn't already HO HO HO).

This will ENRAGE her, and make her a easy target for the vaulderie suggestion, while allowing her to survive (if we manage to get through the bond before she loves the woman utterly that is).

 

[Esquilax]

It's not about loyalty as such, it's about the personal charisma, the usefulness, the exciting factor that Sommers assert to his associates.

And the phrase concerned Oscar is a mis-post on my part. I mean Oscar trust Sommers to some extent, not vice versa. Come on, we are Ventrue, outside of our own skin who would we trust? Nobody, that's who. But Oscar know that we dont sell our associates. Drag into deep shits Ventrue style, yes. Sell, no.

That's why I propose to turn Oscar now. In true Ventrue's way, we turn our own warden to our side.

That's pretty clever. So after we lie to Eames, we wait until she leaves, then try to win Oscar to our side by using a combination of smooth talk + Presence/Dominate? I like the idea of Dominating him into not tracking our phone calls. Oscar is very likely of the same generation as us, so I think that his young age combined with his already favourable opinion toward us could make him easy to sway. We haven't really used our Disciplines all that much, and this idea is pretty cool. Still thinking about it, though...

 

[SCO]

My suggestion above works if you lie or not. Yours too Esquilax, but i would rather only use dominate later, when bringing Oscar into our little cabal (he should be one of the first, since he is dangerous as a spy).

Dominate is supposed to be temporary.

I wonder what sort of hold she (or whoever it is) has over Oscar.

 

[Storyfag]

\I wonder what sort of hold she (or whoever it is) has over Oscar.

Oscar is the second Nosferatu we see working for Eames. Makes me wonder. Maybe she has an alliance with their elders? That would make her quite powerful...

 

[Black Bart Charley]

Nos usually dont like Tremere at all. Or vica versa. I skimmed a line about that in some source book where it said that the Nos dont like Tremere cause the Tremere want to know to much about Nos and the Tremere dont like the Nos cause the Nos already know to much.

This rendering may or may not resemble someone or something.

 

[Excidium]

Nos usually dont like Tremere at all.

That's why Nos hate the Tremere, the warlocks manage to be a mistery even to them. Well that and the Gargoyle business.

But an alliance between members of both clans isn't that strange, each domain is it's own little world.

 

[Lord Andre]

Given the choice, I would support Kirckback over any tremere puppet prince.

It's easier for us to move up if the power over the city is spread thin between a lot of players. If we eliminate the prince, and the tremere set up a puppet, the majority of power will be with only one faction. That faction may be favorable to us but, knowing the tremere house rules, key positions will be given to members of the circle jerk pyramid. We will get scraps and left-overs.

 

[laclongquan]

It's not about loyalty as such, it's about the personal charisma, the usefulness, the exciting factor that Sommers assert to his associates.

And the phrase concerned Oscar is a mis-post on my part. I mean Oscar trust Sommers to some extent, not vice versa. Come on, we are Ventrue, outside of our own skin who would we trust? Nobody, that's who. But Oscar know that we dont sell our associates. Drag into deep shits Ventrue style, yes. Sell, no.

That's why I propose to turn Oscar now. In true Ventrue's way, we turn our own warden to our side.

That's pretty clever. So after we lie to Eames, we wait until she leaves, then try to win Oscar to our side by using a combination of smooth talk + Presence/Dominate? I like the idea of Dominating him into not tracking our phone calls. Oscar is very likely of the same generation as us, so I think that his young age combined with his already favourable opinion toward us could make him easy to sway. We haven't really used our Disciplines all that much, and this idea is pretty cool. Still thinking about it, though...

Good old fashioned smooth talk and Presence first, but Dominate if necessary to ensure absolute no chance of his backing out. In this context Eddie wont object to our, possible, heavyhanded treatment of his old friend.

It's even pretty good chance of success, mind you, because of Oscar's young age and his incredible rashness in having a Tremere baroness as patron. Nosferatu working for a Tremere? Words fail.

I think basic attacks of smooth talk and Presence is already medium chance of success. Couple with our willingness to use Dominate, and his guiltiness over betraying old friend and old associate leading to non-resolute will. Over all I think good chance of success.

Of course, if Oscar is bloodbonded it will be very interesting to see the result. Very interesting.

 

[Esquilax]

@ SCO: I want to see if I'm getting this right: convince Eames to keep the current Sheriff around by convincing the Regentia to put a bloodbond on her? We can cover the real reason we want the Sheriff around by saying that it isn't wise to alienate a talented and influential Kindred like Schiller - we'd hardly want her becoming disaffected and going Anarch, now would we? Better to control her and keep an eye on her instead. If Eames agrees to this, then we pretty much get the same deal (Barony + Loyal Sheriff) as we would if we were to support Kirkbeck. That's a pretty serious advantage.

However, I'm not so sure I like the idea of having our most powerful ally bound to such a cunning enemy. A move like this could backfire pretty dangerously, and who's to say that Schiller won't agree to a Vaulderie without all this sneaking around behind her back? We have built a lot of trust with her and I think that she appreciates the sacrifices we've made so that her own people didn't have to die, and for the Camarilla cause in general. According to Eames, Erika seemed very distraught after Anthony was shot, thinking that Wilkinson killed us. We can use that emotional state to our advantage.

Being honest with Erika has been fruitful so far, so why not continue it? If we're bloodbound to Eames, we can tell Erika how it happened and that we've learned how to perform a Vaulderie from Jamieson/Wilkinson as a solution. It's certainly not in her interests to have the one guy she trusts in the London Camarilla being the unwilling slave of the Tremere.

It's clever, but there's a lot of risk to it that can be avoided simply by supporting Kirkbeck. Besides, I think that Erika will agree anyways. I'm loving the Vaulderie idea and forming our own secret cabal within the Camarilla, but I'm just not a fan of getting Schiller bloodbound to Eames and going behind her back like that - there's too many things that can go wrong, IMO. tl;dr Let's do the Vaulderie when the time comes, but let's be honest with Erika.

@ laclongquan: Yes, I think that we have a pretty good chance of swaying him to turn a blind eye to our activities, as well. Dominate will be a last resort (as it is for any Ventrue worth his salt), but nevertheless going for that 1-2 combo of Presence to wear him down and Dominate to finish him off seems like it could be very effective.

However, there's one option that we haven't been considering. Why call the Sheriff at all right now? Why not just shut the fuck up and not give ourselves away until it's time to give our statement? If we're going to support Kirkbeck, well, there's no need to warn Erika about the Regentia's plot, because the Sheriff won't be losing her job anyways. If we're going with Kirkbeck, it might be wise just to stay quiet and not tip off Oscar by contacting Erika. We stay quiet, we don't say anything to anybody about what we're going to do (even to Eddie), then just make our public statement in favour of Kirkbeck.

 

[laclongquan]

We need to contact Erika now so that she knows of this problem and prepare accordingly. At the very least this political move wont catch her off guards. And because politic is not her strong point she will be very grateful that we alert her first. Major affection points opportunity here. Plus a heavy chance to help Prince's faction balance with Barons' faction. They really need that help.

IF we leave things till later, like, retract words among a major conclave of nobles and VIPS, that very action will show us as a backstabbing Ventrue who dont consider his own commitment important enough to keep. Whatever gains we get from that, which is quite small, wont balance against the loss of respect you incur. And the result of this is that Prince's side still lose momentum, quite possibly lose power.

 

[SCO]

@ SCO
However, I'm not so sure I like the idea of having our most powerful ally bound to such a cunning enemy. A move like this could backfire pretty dangerously, and who's to say that Schiller won't agree to a Vaulderie without all this sneaking around behind her back? We have built a lot of trust with her and I think that she appreciates the sacrifices we've made so that her own people didn't have to die, and for the Camarilla cause in general. According to Eames, Erika seemed very distraught after Anthony was shot, thinking that Wilkinson killed us. We can use that emotional state to our advantage.

Being honest with Erika has been fruitful so far, so why not continue it? If we're bloodbound to Eames, we can tell Erika how it happened and that we've learned how to perform a Vaulderie from Jamieson/Wilkinson as a solution. It's certainly not in her interests to have the one guy she trusts in the London Camarilla being the unwilling slave of the Tremere.

She wants to kill her (probably before the speech). We need to provide a alternative. We can always say that we were already under the effect of the blood bond and only got the will power to break out when we found out about the vaulderie ritual if she finds out where the suggestion came.

We were trying to save her life (it's true anyway).
The sheriff is the most volatile (and loyal to the strictures of the camarilla) of our allies. Convincing her may require extreme measures like this (and i doubt we can use dominate on her).

 

[laclongquan]

So what is the consensus of tactics are Lie Yes, convince Oscar, and alert Erika.

I must say that no way I will touch Blood Bond of any sort, any direction. It's just too damn risky in all fronts.

 

[grotsnik]

This rendering may or may not resemble someone or something.

Jesus Christ, I love his mohawk!

Right. Now, I suck at character sheets. Truly suck. I think I've got all of this horribly wrong. So with that in mind, please feel free to hurl abuse at me until I get it right.

Anthony Sommers:

St: |
Dex: | |
Stam: | |
Char: | | | |
Manip: | |
Appearance: | |
Perception: | |
Intelligence: | | |
Wits: | |
Empathy: | |
Leadership: | | | |
Drive: | |
Etiquette: | | |
Firearms: | | |
Melee: |
Academics: | |
Computer: |
Finance: | |
Investigation: | |
Law: | |
Politics: | | | | |
Science: |
Technology: |
Merits: Political Ties, Coldly Logical
Flaws: Phobia (Intense, warfare-like violence)
Humanity: | | | | | | | |
Dominate: | | |
Fortitude: |
Presence: | | | |

 

[laclongquan]

Forget the sheet. we need the proper update of the situation.

Dont tell me you waste the entire long ass period just to deal with this popamole stuff.

 

[Lord Andre]

No, don't forget the sheet. It's important.

We have 5 dots in charisma, presence and leadership. Eames should be on her knees, sucking our cock, not the other way around. And Oscar should be watching and nodding approvingly.

 

[SCO]

Did you see the 6 politics dots in that thing? I do believe we could convince the apostle John to walk on water.