Let's talk of Kotor2 for a change. (some spoilers)

[Balor]

Or, more likely, how KICKASS Krea is.

I've about halfway through the game so far (level 11, just past the polar academy).
Of course, Kotor is not Planescape, and, again, mostly either you choose 'dumb and insane' responses or you keep gaining lights side points that make your dark force powers cost more (but I LOVE dark powers! Force lightning and drain life, coupled with force body... everyone dies, everybody! Mwahahaha!), yet it seem to be much better then first Kotor. Anyway, back to Krea.

She's so cool that rips apart space and time continuum of flimsy SW setting.
A quote that made me to fall in love with that annoying, lecturing old hag:

In reply to "Are you a Jedi or a Sith?"
"Does this matter? Of course it does, such titles allows your to break the galaxy into Light and Dark, categorize it.
Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, pieces of a whole. Know that I am your teacher, and that is enough."

Then the dialogue about not teaching the Handmaiden to be Jedi... that sertainly leaved a loophole as 'Sith', so I asked about "Sith and greater Evil".
Oh, her answer made me love her even more.

And remember that dialogue near that tomb of Ajunta Pall?
About the nature of redemption?
That was about the first time I've chosen the 'dark side option' with no second thought, and reward of 'dark side point' was so much sweeter this way.

I've yet to see how it all develops (so I'm leaving this thread to avoid a bucket of spoilers... for now), yet so far Krea is nominated for Oscar for 'Best RPG character' and is clearly winning.

 

[Greatatlantic]

Yeah, people tend not to form neutral opinions about her. You either enjoy puzzling over her vague as mist replies or hate her for never getting to the point. And how much you like Krei has a lot to do with how much you like KotOR 2, since she's has the most to say in the this dialogue heavy RPG. Of course, this doesn't make the battles any more a chore, but thats another story. I tended to fall into the former, so I enjoyed KotOR 2. I also thought it was a lot better then the original, which seems to be a rare opinion around here and anywhere else.

 

[Spazmo]

Kreia was awful. She was just a whiny old bitch who'd complain at you no matter what you did. She just got on my nerves every time she talked, so I never brought her anywhere unless I was forced to.

 

[Volourn]

"You either enjoy puzzling over her vague as mist replies"

They weren't vague. It was pretty clear that her main, and only point was The Force Itself = Bad.

One dimensional character. Overall, i did like her to a certain point; but she is most definitely the most overrated joinable npc this side of Minsc, Annah, or Dogmeat.

R00fles!

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

The cool thing about Dogmeat was he kept his goddamn mouth shut when he wasn't ripping flesh off some scumbag.

 

[roguefrog]

I liked her. [un]fallen sith lord, and not a real jedi either, not even close. She plays you like a fiddle.

 

[LlamaGod]

the picked the worst setting to try their hand at 'deep characters' in.

 

[Balor]

the picked the worst setting to try their hand at 'deep characters' in.

Yea, that's exactly what I'm talking about her 'ripping space and time', heh.
She looks so alien, and, therefore, so good in this bipolar world of 'goody two shoes' Jedi and 'teh ULTIMATE EVIL!!1' Sith.

Oh, and I remember how she upbraided me one for killing a that guy in the military base - he was damn annoying - kept getting lost on his way out, and then disappeared w/o giving me anything! And that nasty 'light side point', too.
So I psyched up, loaded game and burned him to a crisp... and, like I mentioned, the lectured me about 'stupidity of psychotic urges'.
I did even feel somewhat humbled, heh - I did not load again, though. Loot + dark side point + some RP opportunity - teh good.

Anyway, back to playing it.

 

[Volourn]

"She plays you like a fiddle."

Um. That's because the game doesn't allow you to kill her, or tell you to go away. She doesn't play your character like the fiddle; the game plays the player like a fiddle.

It's one of my biggest beefs (outside of combat) that disturbs me about both KOTORs. The forcing of characters upon the PC is a FF trait that should stick with FF type RPGs.

I want my character to travel with who they want. Period.

 

[roguefrog]

"She plays you like a fiddle."

Um. That's because the game doesn't allow you to kill her, or tell you to go away. She doesn't play your character like the fiddle; the game plays the player like a fiddle.

This is the same shit, different color. (refer to my comments below)

It's one of my biggest beefs (outside of combat) that disturbs me about both KOTORs. The forcing of characters upon the PC is a FF trait that should stick with FF type RPGs.

I want my character to travel with who they want. Period.

Sure, only thing is she is tied to the story similar to The Nameless One in Torment, unlike most cRPGs (and like jrpgs)

The story simply can't work without her. And if you can't stand her, you won't like the game.

 

[Higher Game]

Kreia is the best KOTOR character ever. Instead of "durr, kill kill kill", like 99% of the Sith (and video game villains in general), she puts forth her philosophy in a cold, logical manner. I would rather see a mediocre or slightly good intellectual villain instead of an excellent supervillain killing machine. We get too many of those, and they get old and tired. We need more intelligent bad guys like Kreia. KOTOR2 had both, and that's why it's one of the best computer RPGs ever.

It's challenging enough for the hardcore gamers, and accessible enough for n00bs who pay the bills. :D It's not consolified to hell like many RPGs; the computer version was strong in its own right.

Overall, it's a great RPG. It's not a jRPG, but it's not a roguelike game where everything can be killed. It hits a great balance between the two, which is hard to do. It's criminally underappreciated by the hardcore guys here...

PS- It destroys everything Troika ever did. That's right. :twisted:

 

[Andyman Messiah]

I'll agree that Kreia was a good character. Problem was that she was almost as annoying as Jar-Jar Binks whenever she didn't talk philosophical mumbo-fucking-trash-jumbo with you - which was probably more than 75 % of the game. That's a pretty common problem with Star Wars-characters.

Oh, and KotOR2 isn't challenging. It's easy as hell. I think you're the first one to say it was challenging, Higher Game. I'll have to remember that.

Oh (again), and about KotOR2 destroying everything Troika ever did; No. Fuck off.

 

[AlanC9]

Why do people keep saying that Kreia's a villain? After the last movie, it's obvious that she's right about the Force. It should be destroyed.

Everything that happens -- the rise of the Empire, the wars, the planets destroyed, all of it -- happens because the Force needs to restore "balance " to itself. So who needs it?

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Don't generalize.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't The Force connected to all things alive or something and the death of The Force would pretty much kill the universe or something spooky like that? I haven't really read too much into the subject. Don't really care either, tell you the truth.

 

[deus]

Nowadays the Force comes from organisms living in your blood. I really wish I wasn't kidding.

 

[Higher Game]

I found it challenging because I intentionally didn't munchkinize my characters with the phattest l00t, and I avoided exploits and stuff. In KOTOR2, I cared more about an armour's style than its attributes. Jedi rely on their inner strength, not shiny armor!

I play farmers and hurthlings in ADOM, though, so I'm weird...

If you don't like long talks and philosophy, go play Diablo or Final Fantasy XI. I appreciate the risks taken in KOTOR II, even if they all didn't work out. Kreia is nothing like Jar Jar Binks, and KOTOR is nothing like the latest Star Wars movies. It's good and fun.

The force is the spiritual element which holds the universe together. Gunk in our blood has nothing to do with it. The last Star Wars movie was Return of the Jedi, and none were made after that. Just trust me here, don't even look for others. It's just rumors and lies.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

I found it challenging because I intentionally didn't munchkinize my characters with the phattest l00t, and I avoided exploits and stuff. In KOTOR2, I cared more about an armour's style than its attributes. Jedi rely on their inner strength, not shiny armor!

Yet you relied on the armour's style. Ah whatever. You're correct. I'm wrong. I'll go back to hiding under your bed.

If you don't like long talks and philosophy, go play Diablo or Final Fantasy XI.

Somebody read a bit too much into what I wrote and made up that I don't like dialogue. I'll take you up on the offer to play some Diablo though. I like that game. It's a certain philosophy, it really is. Like Tetris, only with crappier music.

I appreciate the risks taken in KOTOR II, even if they all didn't work out. Kreia is nothing like Jar Jar Binks, and KOTOR is nothing like the latest Star Wars movies. It's good and fun.

Well, like I said, it all depends on the time. When she's not lending you vague spooky philosophical insight and instead is scolding you for anything you do, she really is Jar-Jar. Irritating, moronic and perfect to imagine getting hit by a bat. Or two bats. Or like a whole fucking army of bats. An army of Batmen! But when she really lends you that vague spooky philosophical insight, she's a nice character to have around. I wish that's what they would have focused on instead of trying to design her into everybody's english teacher.

So to come to a conclusion: philosophical mumbo-fucking-jumbo = good. Scolding and bitching = it's Jar-Jar all over again. Bring out the Batman.

The force is the spiritual element which holds the universe together. Gunk in our blood has nothing to do with it. The last Star Wars movie was Return of the Jedi, and none were made after that. Just trust me here, don't even look for others. It's just rumors and lies.

'kay.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

I found it challenging because I intentionally didn't munchkinize my characters with the phattest l00t, and I avoided exploits and stuff. In KOTOR2, I cared more about an armour's style than its attributes. Jedi rely on their inner strength, not shiny armor!

That reminds me of the boxer rebellion. And if you have to purposefully nerf your character, the game isn't challenging.

If you don't like long talks and philosophy, go play Diablo or Final Fantasy XI.

Have you played Deus Ex? I haven't played the KOTOR's but I'd wager you'd find the discussions you have with artificial-intelligence-greeter programs and bartenders more stimulating than any force-balance-mumbo-jumbo.

 

[Zomg]

You also need to be pretty invested in the Star Wars setting to give a shit about the force-philosophizing, too, since The Force isn't really a coherent metaphor for something in real life but rather a full-blown fantasy element like magic or demons. So Kreia is basically philosophizing about an imaginary thing, and that's a bit too removed for me to come away from the game thinking about it too much. Parts of PS:T had the same problem, since the Ethical-Moral axes of D&D alignment have their own internal framework that you have to give a damn about in the first place before people talking about them has any meaning.

 

[Spazmo]

You also need to be pretty invested in the Star Wars setting to give a shit about the force-philosophizing, too, since The Force isn't really a coherent metaphor for something in real life but rather a full-blown fantasy element like magic or demons.

That's a good point. One thing that bugged me a lot in KOTOR2's BS philosophical blabbering was that, well... it's goddamn Star Wars. Anyone with half a fucking brain knows it's a super-simplified, totally manichean universe that doesn't hold up to much critical thinking. Kreia pointing this out is really just shoving the seams of the setting in the player's face and yelling "KINDA STUPID, AIN'T IT?!" Star Wars is supposed to sweep that kind of stuff under the rug and stick to sci-fi ultra lite/fantasy space opera.

 

[Goliath]

In KOTOR2, I cared more about an armour's style than its attributes.

Hello, I just want to say that I support your right to marry and I think it is just sad that so many bigotted people think that you are some kind of second-class citizens.
Stay proud!

 

[LlamaGod]

In KOTOR2, I cared more about an armour's style than its attributes.

Hello, I just want to say that I support your right to marry and I think it is just sad that so many bigotted people think that you are some kind of second-class citizens.
Stay proud!

you win the poster of the year award

you rock, copx

 

[Balor]

Kreia pointing this out is really just shoving the seams of the setting in the player's face and yelling "KINDA STUPID, AIN'T IT?!" Star Wars is supposed to sweep that kind of stuff under the rug and stick to sci-fi ultra lite/fantasy space opera.

Exactly! And I loved her for that even more.
And for it being obvoius... for people like us - perhaps. (I remember you passage about existence of God in religion thread - I felt like you read my mind and copypasted it, heh).
But for others... heh. Anyway, I really liked her philosophy (even the upbraidings and rants... even if it makes me a masochist ), so I consider her one of the best characters in CRPGs.
And he's not exactly a villain. Sertainly not nice, but people did MUCH worse things for 'higher good', that's for sure.

 

[Goliath]

you win the poster of the year award

you rock, copx

Thank you but I'm still just a lowly amphibia compared to poster of the millenium: you!
I wish I could be like you but our merciful creator decided not give me the gift of bovine esprit he gave you so I'm destined to produce forever nothing but superficial imitations of true art. I'm deeply honored that a superior mammal like you even considered my post worthy of a reply.

 

[Higher Game]

That reminds me of the boxer rebellion. And if you have to purposefully nerf your character, the game isn't challenging.

Games should offer challenges to people of both great and meager skill. That's why many rogue-like games have great classes like warrior as well as weak ones like farmer. It's about roleplaying, not about having the phattest l00t. Leave that for Diablo kiddies. I was one of the gamers upset with the forced class change in the first KOTOR, which is one reason why KOTOR2 is much better. If I wanted a s00per character, I could have made one.

Have you played Deus Ex? I haven't played the KOTOR's but I'd wager you'd find the discussions you have with artificial-intelligence-greeter programs and bartenders more stimulating than any force-balance-mumbo-jumbo.

I love Deus Ex. I've played through it 3+ times. The force balance stuff is similar to a lot of analogies in reality; just be open minded about it.