Level scaling - a brilliant feature or a big mistake?

[larpingdude14]

Why the hate for level scaling? What's the fun in killing monsters in 1 hit? Is there anybody who likes grinding? IMO it adds more challenge to RPGs and should be commonplace.

 

[SuicideBunny]

what's the point of generic levels if you scale shit up to them?
why not either do away with them, or go the guild wars route?

[nazimode]also, this belongs in rpg design[/nazimode]

 

[Thalkirst]

Why the hate for level scaling? What's the fun in killing monsters in 1 hit? Is there anybody who likes grinding?

It is equally stupid that a lvl 2 mage poses the biggest threat EVAR to the world...

Seriously, it kills any and all immersion and also, your improvement and leveling will be pointless as your enemies will be always leveling with you.

And not mentioning the retarded shit of an ambush on the road that consists of some uber lvl 40 thieves with uber armor and swinging the Epic Pwnage Sword of Insta-killing...

 

[larpingdude14]

Oh, yes, because the fact that characters have levels is soo immersive.

 

[mjorkerina]

larpingdude is just looking at having some lulz since Andhaira is banned. It's a troll. Don't feed it.

 

[The Feral Kid]

Why the hate for level scaling? What's the fun in killing monsters in 1 hit? Is there anybody who likes grinding? IMO it adds more challenge to RPGs and should be commonplace.

This is coming from someone who has "Fuck Oblivion" as signature. Maybe you get the idea that such a sign will boost your popularity here or excuse you open topics like this one. It doesn't.

 

[larpingdude14]

I inly hate oblivion cuz i got banned from the ESF.

 

[JarlFrank]

Doesn't mean we can't have a good discussion in here.

Two words: It sucks. Donkey balls. Seriously. Okay, depends to what extend it's included. But generally, it sucks. Full-scale level scaling like in Oblivion is the worst design decision to ever be slapped into an RPG. Levels become meaningless, experience becomes meaningless, loot becomes meaningless, stats become meaningless, because *everything* is scaled after your char. You suck, enemies suck. You pwn, enemies pwn. Same with loot. Noobs get shit, high level chars get the shit. It's fucking useless and stupid and fucking imbalanced. It's the epitome of dullness and the contrary to uniqueness.

 

[WalterKinde]

Don't forget the curse of being locked into a specific character build.
Try playing a non combative or combatcentric character in Oblivion and see how far you get when you have to do some of those combat quests.

 

[MetalCraze]

larpingdude is just looking at having some lulz since Andhaira is banned. It's a troll. Don't feed it.

it's Chefe. still better than andhaira though.

 

[Oarfish]

Oblivions fake glass swords in cases that turned into real ones only when you hit level 10 or so were one of the worst moments in my gaming memory. Completely at odds with both RPG and action game mechanics. Rockstar would be dragged throught the streets and strung up if they turned the weapons that require a ludicrous stunt to get at into super soakers until the player had completed the missions that unlock them. And with an RPG there are so many better ways to restrixt access to unbalancing content. Like, you know, character skill and acual consequences for fucking up a burglary and all that.

 

[TheLostOne]

Also, Codexers seem to be a bit compulsive when RPG discussion topics arise. If they couldn't resist responding to Andhaira's hyperactive fragmented prose-spam, they sure as fuck won't stay away from Chefe's more moderate trolling.

 

[Squeek]

There's more to consider about level scaling than its obvious disadvantages. It's intended as a solution to a problem, after all. This conversation is stuck and really ought to move forward to discussing ways that level scaling could be done more creatively and effectively and without otherwise ruining the game.

Maybe that's just not possible. But if it were, then it would open the door to a lot more creativity that would otherwise be limited by the problem level-scaling tries to solve.

 

[YourConscience]

Doesn't mean we can't have a good discussion in here.

Yes, you are right. But why do you give me such a perfect bait? Because this piece of text from you:

Two words: It sucks. Donkey balls. Seriously. Okay, depends to what extend it's included. But generally, it sucks. Full-scale level scaling like in Oblivion is the worst design decision to ever be slapped into an RPG. Levels become meaningless, experience becomes meaningless, loot becomes meaningless, stats become meaningless, because *everything* is scaled after your char. You suck, enemies suck. You pwn, enemies pwn. Same with loot. Noobs get shit, high level chars get the shit. It's fucking useless and stupid and fucking imbalanced. It's the epitome of dullness and the contrary to uniqueness.

...is actually quite uncivilized:

4x meaningless
4x sucks
2x fucking
2x pwn
Donkey balls
stupid
dullness
... and all the more mundane modificators and adjectives.

You know, the more you repeat something, the less significant it is.

Back on-topic: Level scaling does make sense, if used only very carefully, such as only for bosses, so that they always present at least a moderate threat level. Of course, if level scaling is taken to the extreme, it kills another important feature of open-world rpgs: zone threat levels. Like in Gothic you just know that going to that area over there with the dragon does not make you live long right now, but soon you will be able to!

And then, level scaling is basically the inability to set up a real world simulation where monsters form functioning tribes and kill and get killed and so on. See Dwarf fortress for an example where it works to some extent.

And what's wrong with the way it was handled in Ultima Underworld? (i.e. no scaling at all)

 

[LaDoushe]

I think level scaling is nonsense. Adversary progress, makes sense. If time were used instead of the PC's level, NPC scaling (for some NPCs) is probably the most realistic option available. If not level scaling, they should amass more forces or move to attack with those forces. That enemies just sit static is ludicrous.
However, that a blacksmith or mayor has leveled up all this time is even more foolish. Most people live and die as 0-level NPCs.

 

[Herbert West]

That's too much like Andhaira thread for my taste, but since its Che... uh, Larpingdude I'll type a generic "captain obvious" answer.

Oblibion scaling is utterly bad. Removes the challenge of the game, completely demolishes any traces of cohesive game world, it totally counters any logic. lvl 2 character destroying Dagon?? Come the fuck on. It's THE worst thing about this game.
Designers implement character system, experience points and levels. When player is to low a level, he can not overcome some obstacles. Therefore he needs to gain experience and tackle them again.
Now tell me, why did those designers went to all the trouble of implementing exp points, stats and levels, only to completely invalidate them with level scaling? Because it does just that- it invalidates one of the foundations of the game. Beth baffles me.

Now, if level scaling would be used only in few, selected quests or situations, or if it were restricted to a small area and used sparingly, maybe it wouldn't do much harm. Certainly nothing like level scaled rats of wolves as random encounters....
Bah, what the hell am I talking about. Level scaling is a dead end in any RPG game because it counters one of the foundations of the genre.

 

[NiM82]

I think it can work, but with fixed ranges, a degree of randomness, and no item/gear/loot scaling.

For example; let's imagine a game with a max level cap of 20, and a generic Bear monster. The bear could have a level between 1-5, early on you'd mostly meet bears at the bottom of the range, as you progress the odds of you meeting a tougher bear increase. After a certain point though that's it, your above and beyond them. Their loot/gear wouldn't change, just their base stats to keep them challenging for a little bit longer.

I don't think it's desirable, nor needed in more linear games like Fallout or BG, but for free roaming stuff like MW/Oblivion (with spawn points for monsters) I think it could work nicely with a bit of effort. Otherwise the games just become too easy, too quickly. The only other alternative really is to have a big bestiary, with bigger more powerful creatures showing up out the blue when you level up, which imo is even stupider (and was also a 'feature' of Oblivion).

 

[Disconnected]

Maybe that's just not possible. But if it were, then it would open the door to a lot more creativity that would otherwise be limited by the problem level-scaling tries to solve.

Level scaling is fine in games like Space Invaders remakes & Diablo clones, because grind is all there is to the gameplay.

In actual role-playing games, manipulating some aspect of the grind is missing the point entirely. Why? Because RPG grind is what happens when a designer fills a gap in the design with a placeholder. Sort of like BethSoft & NPCs.

A fairly good example is Oblivion. Obviously there's some wildlife in the wildlands of Oblivion, so the designer dropped some random Wolf encounters. Only, instead of, for example, trying to make the wildlands feel vast & untamed somehow, perhaps by introducing a need to make camp, where an encounter with a wolf, or a pack of wolves, could be both interesting, plausible and scary as fuck, the designer made a string of fucked up decisions:

The spawnpoints are too close. The wildlands don't feel the least bit wild, instead they feel like a visit to a cage-free Zoo full of rabid animals.

The level Scaling is ass-backwards. Instead of increasing the number of wolves & giving them a wolf-like AI that knows how to hunt in a pack, you're instead met by 1-2 unstoppable Super Wolves, easily capable of laying waste to a continent.

The spawn triggers are silly. Instead of creating a set of triggers that only throws wolves at a player when wolves might actually: 1. Go after a player. 2. Be dangerous to a player. 3. Be fun & challenging to fight, wolves are simply a never-ending auto-spawning source of grind.


A much better solution is to design encounters with an eye for what's dramatic, plausible within the setting and fun & challenging for the player. If that means a levelling system where you get better at hacking stuff to pieces by hacking X million things to pieces doesn't work, then the levelling system is the problem & it isn't gonna go fix itself just because wolves get harder to kill for every 5 wolves you kill.

 

[Xi]

Scaling removes the entire concept of "progression." It nullifies a central theme of RPGs since their PnP inception back in the day. So, basically you're saying, "Why not remove progression?" Because, Progression is kick ass and has been a feature most players have connected with and enjoyed. The real question is what is gained by removing it? Lazy development that doesn't have to spend as much man power on balancing/tweaking game-play.

Fucking ridiculous, seriously.

 

[slipgate_angel]

While level scailing does protect you from running into a high level monster at Lv1, it does ruin the fun of actually exploring the world, and running into the fantastic dangers unknown.

 

[Special_Can]

The level Scaling is ass-backwards. Instead of increasing the number of wolves & giving them a wolf-like AI that knows how to hunt in a pack, you're instead met by 1-2 unstoppable Super Wolves, easily capable of laying waste to a continent.

What? All I ever saw in Oblivion was regular wolves and Timber Wolves. What super Wolves are you talking about?

 

[Disconnected]

What? All I ever saw in Oblivion was regular wolves and Timber Wolves. What super Wolves are you talking about?

I was talking about levelscaling in general and using Oblivion wolves as an example. By "Super Wolves" I was referring to the ridiculous situation of random encounters with the stats to defeat small armies.

You can't both have a gameworld & mechanics depend power-relations, hierarchies and level progression, and have an equalizer system that ensures no power-relations, hierarchies or level progression can matter, without thoroughly breaking the game.

 

[Sancho Panza]

Those are all very learned and erudite reasons why level scaling is bad, but lets not forget to add the REAL 2 reasons:

1-Sometimes you just need to do whirlwind attacks capable of killing scores of the enemy per moment. Whether you are fantasizing about Drizzt or Elric Melnobone, it amounts to the same thing: UNADULTERATED SLAUGHTER HAVOC AND MAYHEM.

and

B-Overcome by incredible odds, you somehow manage to defeat hordes/deities/demi-gods or perhaps your achievement is merely to escape alive, the fact of the matter is it proves your INTELLECTUAL METTLE AND TACTICAL GENIUS (never mind that prior to this encounter, your avatar had been rezz'ed over 150 times.)

So say we all.
(edited sp)

 

[Raapys]

Loot should never be level-scaled. That just ruins half the experience. Creatures shouldn't be level-scaled either, but if you have to do it at least make it so that you *replace the old creatures with another sort* and not just increase the old creatures' hit-points tenfold.

If there's anything I hate in a game it's creatures/NPCs that can take hundreds of hits and still live. I still remember my Arena matches in Oblivion where I had to fire about 100 fireballs in the face of the opponent while simply running backwards. It's not necessarily more challenging, but it's certainly much more tedious and boring.

 

[Zinc]

When did larpydude start using punc2ation?