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Long games ruin fun!

Spectacle

Arcane
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Joined
May 25, 2006
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I'd like to meet this hypothetical gamer that the big game companies are all targeting. He's a person who

Has too short an attention span to read a manual
Is too stupid to understand complex game mechanics no matter how good the tutorial is
Gives up at once if he's even slightly frustrated
Never plays any game for more than a few hours, but goes out and buys another game instead.

I think it's probably for the best if these people spend their time playing games instead of damaging society in other ways.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
His argument is horrible. I probably felt I was getting ripped if i'm shelling out full price for a single player games precisely because of retards like him.

People hate games that are too long < I Agree
EVEN IF THEY'RE HAVING FUN < DIE. DIE. DIE x10
 
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
452
Since we are talking about games in general i'll play Devil's Advocate for a while.

A year ago i would have been like most of the Codex, telling this guy to go get himself fucked up his ass and all that. Now i am with him at least so far as we say SOME games do not need to be long, regardless of quality. A pure RPG? Yeah, sure. Make it so long it hurts, since the investment in character development and exploration feels pointless if the game ends too soon. But, on the other side - action games, or games with an emphasis on action over other elements? The shorter the better, regardless of quality.

Take "Bullet Curtain" shooters as an example. You can finish them in one, thirty minute long, sitting. The point is that you have to be pretty good at the game to survive beyond the first five minutes in anything beyond the easiest setting, and a GOD to do it in the harder ones. You can spend half a year or more to 1cc the fuckers "cleanly", without exploits or "tricks", on the oh-so-fucking-insane hardest setting - And some even then can't do it. You MUST spend even more to do so consistently and without too much of a hassle, if you ever even reach such skill level.

Another example would be the Freespace games. How long are they? I usually cleared them in two nights, back when i was doing the "middle" setting (and without dying once but in the "lucifer" mission, i'm that cool), so not a lot of lenght right there. Now go an raise the setting to the hardest - What, you just took off and are already exploding like a moron? Cool. Now go finish the game like that. I'm seeing weeks, if not months (in case you are a little fresh on the "space sim" thing) of "game value" right ahead.

Both examples seems to me far more "money worthy" than any game you do one, two, or three runs and forget about it - regardless of how long those runs are. So the point isn't really how long the game is, but how much time and enjoyment you can take from it.

I would hope games become shorter, actually. Most games, regardless of genre, have most of the content be little more than filler - More battles to grind through, some uninteresting sidequests disconected from whatever objective you have, etc. WTF? I am not against turning games into a series of unique "set pieces" that runs through, what? Six, eight hours? I'll be going back to re-experience those unique, cool moments often instead of a game that had some insteresting moments separated by hours of the same shit over and over and over. And i am not the only one.

Better yet if those eight hours of unique set pieces are hard as fucking hell and you need some real skill and months of practice to survive anything beyond the first scene. The problem, then, would be games becoming easy (not simple, but easy - simple CAN be cool, if it is simple because the test is upon real skill instead of "gameisms") - Not the games becoming short.

Just my two cents about the general topic of games becoming shorter.
 

AzraelCC

Scholar
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
309
The only genres to benefit from planned game length are Role-playing games and Adventure games. For the former, you want more places to explore, more quests to do, because most likely when you're done, it would be some time before you play it again with a new character, since the first play through reveals the story. Even with replayability elements thrown in (open-world, grinding) the experience if you play it again is already different--less of an experience.

The rest of the genres rests length on replayability through randomness and multi-player. Whether it's diablo or paradox grand strategy games, there are random elements that entice you to play again, lengthening value for your buck. RTS and FPS rely on single-player as world-exposition and training, but when all is said and done, multiplayer will make or break games from these genres. MMORPGs combine the two--replayability and randomness--to really maximize game length, since their income directly stems from length of play.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
" Every time a developer invests 25 hours of content into a game and then realises there's another 75 hours to go, they just can't stomach continuing and they walk away with a sour taste in their mouth - no matter how much fun they had with the game.
"They need to be doing something achievable with the end in sight; people's expectations are evolving for how much money they get from selling a game," he added.
:lol:
 

Gnidrologist

CONDUCTOR
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Soon the games will be so short that it would take a negative amount of time to finish them. You will have to ''unplay'' them to retain the status quo.
 
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The Rambling Sage said:
But, on the other side - action games, or games with an emphasis on action over other elements? The shorter the better, regardless of quality.
I'd like to have action games be longer than they are now. Shorter the better I don't think even works with those type of games. Games don't have to be 100 hours, since that would most likely end up being boring at some point. But there's a sweet spot that I don't think any game has managed yet. I would think each genre's sweet spot is at a different time. Though I like detail in my game, so maybe that's why I don't think any game has hit the appropriate time.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
You want short action, watch a movie seriously. 50 cents token arcade are around.
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
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Finnegan's Wake
Rambling Sage, all your points could be valid if the argument weren't "people want short games, even if they are having fun playing them."
Nobody would question removal of filler content or bad gameplay etc. If the dev is not able/willing to put interesting content/gameplay into the game, sure, shorter is probably better.
But you knew this, didn't you? You devil's liar ;)

You know where this comes from? Surveys. A company like BioWare ships a title like Baldur's Gate II or a company like Bethesda ships a title like Morrowind or Oblivion and then asks 100,000 people how they liked the ending and find out that only 5000 actually finished it. When asked why the rest didn't, people say it was too long.
Even if it were true and the survey a correct representation of the gamers it doesn't tell us if those gamers would have prefered seeing an ending or liked the game just fine as it was.

The whole argument is a transparent excuse made by uncreative devs who'd rather invest less time in content while receiving more money instead of reducing production costs.
 

Texas Red

Whiner
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
7,044
Gnidrologist said:
Soon the games will be so short that it would take a negative amount of time to finish them. You will have to ''unplay'' them to retain the status quo.

win :lol:
 

Mareus

Magister
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Gamers no longer want to play games that last 60 or 100 hours according to Silicon Knights president Denis Dyack.

"Legacy of Kain had about sixty hours of play, but games have changed. People don't want that any more. I don't care how good the game is, I don't want to play something that's one hundred hours long," Dyack told GamesIndustry.biz in an interview published today.

" If we're going to craft an epic story we decided we had to divide it into manageable chunks for the consumer," he said, referring to Silicon Knights' proposed Too Human trilogy for Xbox 360...

I guess that is why 10 000 000 people play World of Warcraft every day for the last 4 years. You are right... no one wants to play the same game for more than 10-15 hours. Also, Legacy of Kain had around 10-15 hours of gameplay... You are full of shit.
 

ricolikesrice

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
1,231
...

well it all depends what he means with "lenght".

if rise of the argonauts were to only last 10 hours from start to end it could still be a great game if it was worth replaying enough so you ll have atleast 30-50 hours of good entertainment ... see Fallout 1.

too bad these days most games are designed as a movie first and game second with all the retards crying for their immersive stories, cutscenes and voiceovers ..... and with gameplay secondary its no suprise that those games usually dont provide enough replayability once you experienced the oh so awesome story..... resulting in games where you pay 50 bucks for roughly 5-15 hours of entertainment like CoD4, Bioshock, Assassins Creed, HL2 , Mass Effect etc.

i d also rather have a 10 hour game that is so fun i ll end up with 50 hours of entertainment thanks to replay value...... than a 100 hour games that s so full of crappy filler content that i ll end up bored 10 hours in..... not like the later exists anymore, more like bioshock which has for a FPS OMG FIFTEEN HOURS !!! but ends up being shit and boring 2-3 hours in.
 

bobisimo

Novice
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Jun 5, 2008
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22
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Chicago
Mareus said:
I guess that is why 10 000 000 people play World of Warcraft every day for the last 4 years. You are right... no one wants to play the same game for more than 10-15 hours.

Haha. How many times are people here going to use WoW as a reference to legitimize game length?

Look, there's a pretty obvious difference: story. The type of game being referenced in the interview is the story-based game, games with a beginning, middle, and end with pacing, character development, and so on.

That is not WoW.

You can make a Pac-man that never ends for all I care, but if you make an RPG with a story that goes on for 100s of hours - face it, most of your audience is not going to see the majority of that content. And also, your story is probably going to be thin (or the hours are coming from procedurally-generated content and/or an abundance of side plots).

When most buyers can say they finished Mass Effect and most buyers can't say they finished Baldur's Gate II - despite, what many would say, the difference in overall quality - what does that tell you?

Well, it tells you a lot of things, but one of those things is that the majority of gamers don't finish long games - and for more reasons than just that they're "casual gamers" and/or "dumb". And the developers are learning their lesson (and saving a buck in the process).
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
Gnidrologist said:
Soon the games will be so short that it would take a negative amount of time to finish them. You will have to ''unplay'' them to retain the status quo.

That's certainly going to drive the price up. I hope they port X-Com to this new system. I haven't had the time to play that game in years, but imagine this scenario.

00:00 Drinking
04:00 Pass Out
08:00 Get up for work. *ouch*
08:01 Decide to stay home "sick", go back to bed.
11:00 Start jerking off.
17:00 Stop jerking off.
17:05 Wife comes home, starts bitching about the yard
17:07 Kill Wife
18:00 Fire up X-Com for 18 hour session ( i.e. 2 missions )
00:00 Go to sleep.
08:00 Wake up cheery, kiss wife, and go to work.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
Dark Individual said:
Why don't you have sex with your wife instead of jerking off?

Because she's at work, duh.

But I guess if I'm going to kill and resurrect her, I can probably get her to come home from work early.
 

Mareus

Magister
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
1,404
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Atlantis
bobisimo said:
Haha. How many times are people here going to use WoW as a reference to legitimize game length?

Actually the reference is quite clear. Make the game enough fun with enough content and people will play it for ages. You can even say it is because of the multiplayer features that people play it so long, and while I completely agree that multiplayer features adds to the fun element, the game would never be so popular if it didn't offer content and complexity. As much as I hate WOW, I must say it is one of the most complex RPGs I have ever played and it takes quite a lot of time to become good at it. The game gives you something that single player games have stopped giving a long time ago. It gives you sense of acoomplishment, huge world with a lot of content and real challenge. I firmly believe if single player RPGs offered you characters that act and feel alive, choices and consequenses with 1/3 content as WOW has, some real challenge as to game not treating you like you are an idiot + great story, I believe you would be sad your 100 h gameplay session came to an end. Something very few RPGs has managed to do decently.

bobisimo said:
Look, there's a pretty obvious difference: story. The type of game being referenced in the interview is the story-based game, games with a beginning, middle, and end with pacing, character development, and so on.

That is not WoW.

Yes, and most people here stated they wouldn't mind huge story. What they minded is 100h game where you have to fight for 90% of the time. WOW as much as it is combat orianted lets you actually talk with people and while I played WOW I spent more time talking with people than actually questing. In the begginig RP WOW realm was a place where you could actually roleplay. Then it turned to shit with bunch of assholes named JohnyDick001 running around.

bobisimo said:
You can make a Pac-man that never ends for all I care, but if you make an RPG with a story that goes on for 100s of hours - face it, most of your audience is not going to see the majority of that content. And also, your story is probably going to be thin (or the hours are coming from procedurally-generated content and/or an abundance of side plots).

No, if you make a 100 h game filled with characters that act and feel alive, choices and consequenses with 1/3 content as WOW has, some real challenge as to game not treating you like you are an idiot + great story and I believe you would be sad your 100 h gameplay session came to an end.

bobisimo said:
When most buyers can say they finished Mass Effect and most buyers can't say they finished Baldur's Gate II - despite, what many would say, the difference in overall quality - what does that tell you?

Can you prove that? While I can agree that a lot of people didn't finish Morrowind, I just can't agree on BG comparrison. There you have big difference in gameplay. And I thought genres existed for a reason. I mean, you can't expect an averege shooter fanboy to like RPGs, because they are too complex for his brain, so if you want to make a game for such audience go make a bloody shooter. If you want to make a game that will make you use your brain, make an adventure or an RPG. Developers are just trying to destroy genres and long gameplay is just another excuse in this process so they could invest less time and earn more money.

bobisimo said:
Well, it tells you a lot of things, but one of those things is that the majority of gamers don't finish long games - and for more reasons than just that they're "casual gamers" and/or "dumb". And the developers are learning their lesson (and saving a buck in the process).

No it doesn't. It just tells me most shooter fanboys didn't finish RPGs because they were not meant for them in the first place. While I believe every true RPGist has finished it. I also believe treu RPG market is big enough to survive. Unfortunately very few developers seem to understand this. True RPGists are begging for a good RPG and then we get FO3. I just hope VD's AOD becomes popular in RPG circles and the guy becomes fucking millionare. I also hope FO3 drives Bethseda to bankrupcy, but I guess that won0t happen because it's all up to money and marketing. I didn't even hear about AOD until I got to the codex.

PS. Sorry for typing errors. I am at my job atm... Fuck! I hate it.
 

Erzherzog

Magister
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
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Mid-Atlantic
Guy in onemananadhisdroid's link said:
If everything in the world was objectively worth a certain amount, trading would be rendered useless because in every deal someone would be making a loss.

The fuck?
 

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