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Wizardry Long Live Wizardry! (And The All-New Games By Ex-Wizardry Developers)
- Thread starter aweigh
- Start date
yah man. it's fucking tedious as fuck.plus the real truth is and we know this: it isimpossible to balance a game like this. youcan only try to make sure your game's symbiotic eco-system: all of it's inter-depedent and connective gameplay mechanics (what's usually referred to as "a feature of game play!") are all air tight and with no obvious ways for the player to break shit; yet at the same time it also cannot be COMPLETELY hermetic because that means the player has no possibility of engaging psychologically with the gameplay (example: combat resolution... or a spell system... etc). the player has to feel like the game lets him do what he wants while always keeping everything right between too much or not enough.
take for example inelminage Gothic's the designers made the call that the end-game and the post-game would be ruled by the beheading ability and in an intentional decision by the developers they really limited the total amount of possible protection you can amass versus beheadings even if you're the most grindiest grinder for ore rocks ever. That means that the end-game and the post-game will always resolve a certain amount of encounters with a variable that is not random, but produces the psychological effects of randomity onthe player. in the end i think it's a good decision: the game amply provides ways to resurrect them right after and without much fuss. it is intellectually intriguing for the player knowing that no matter what gear he has, or what level he is, somewhat big portion of the later foes WILL behead them. it's not a decision that a team seeking "perfect balancing" would make, that's for sure. but it's a good decision. the trick lies in random design taking the place of manipulative design: in my opinion that is the key question the systems designer or designer whatever must always be asking of their game's mechanics:
How can i best and most efficiently manipulate the player in the following variables and simultaenously create a scenario where the players can engage the game's sysstems and be able to continually master larger portions of each gameplay element but without ever reaching a point where they begin to consider these facets of the game intellectually beneath them (and therefore boring or whatever). Ugh, the tedious placement of the encuounters and doing calculations for the XP curve and calculations for the itemization curve and all that shit. it's a lot for a single person if the scope is big.
but whatever you can always just copy/paste the enemies wholesale from early Wizardries; they won't mind. Go ahead and use the same XP formulaa that Elminage uss.. why not? it's proven and fun. But that's justmy opnion ofc. I find the most fun part is th maze. it should be the game's raison d'etre and the players' as well.
take for example inelminage Gothic's the designers made the call that the end-game and the post-game would be ruled by the beheading ability and in an intentional decision by the developers they really limited the total amount of possible protection you can amass versus beheadings even if you're the most grindiest grinder for ore rocks ever. That means that the end-game and the post-game will always resolve a certain amount of encounters with a variable that is not random, but produces the psychological effects of randomity onthe player. in the end i think it's a good decision: the game amply provides ways to resurrect them right after and without much fuss. it is intellectually intriguing for the player knowing that no matter what gear he has, or what level he is, somewhat big portion of the later foes WILL behead them. it's not a decision that a team seeking "perfect balancing" would make, that's for sure. but it's a good decision. the trick lies in random design taking the place of manipulative design: in my opinion that is the key question the systems designer or designer whatever must always be asking of their game's mechanics:
How can i best and most efficiently manipulate the player in the following variables and simultaenously create a scenario where the players can engage the game's sysstems and be able to continually master larger portions of each gameplay element but without ever reaching a point where they begin to consider these facets of the game intellectually beneath them (and therefore boring or whatever). Ugh, the tedious placement of the encuounters and doing calculations for the XP curve and calculations for the itemization curve and all that shit. it's a lot for a single person if the scope is big.
but whatever you can always just copy/paste the enemies wholesale from early Wizardries; they won't mind. Go ahead and use the same XP formulaa that Elminage uss.. why not? it's proven and fun. But that's justmy opnion ofc. I find the most fun part is th maze. it should be the game's raison d'etre and the players' as well.
yeah bishop is a tool, basically, in the form a character. it's a decision of convenience. later on the decision became more complicated when the prices of identified items became the same as their sale prize; over the years the bishop has been tweaked in a lot of ways in the gear department (some would say for the worse as he could use all cleric gear in the beginning and now cannot).
it's not a class you pick for your party because you want to enhance directly the party but rather you pick the class because of indirect, and sometimes for player-convenience which i honestly don't know how to term or what to call. it's not an indirect enhancement... HOWEVER a function that is a gameplay element that exists solely for player convenince IS in the end a part of the game mechanics; and as i mentioned once the identification pricing got tweaked the bishop's worse rose considerably in both ways: direct enhancement in-game of the party (more gold) + the rest of the stuff.
this is not a unique situation in RPGs, as i imagine you know. it's not a Wizardry-problem. this kind of shit design is everywhere; off-hand a quick mention: in Elminage: Gothic the worthless-but-not-worthless character class award goes to the Alchemist. in all other Elminages it is the Bishop, as always, but in Gothic you get a skill that allows basically an "item bag" that allows you to store a huge amount of loot that you can then identify in bulk and that mitigates the need of the bishop just enough that the player can dump him and instead take an alchemist along. (In elminage alchemists are amazing and with an incredible spell list but it's not a class you KEEP; it's a class you change into to learn the spells and then move on); however you HAVE to keep the Alchemist in order to level up his class skill of wringing more AP points out of smithing ores. a situation very comparable to that of the bishop.
personally how i would solve thisridiculous situation is making identification and smithing abilities class-independant abilities that are chosen for the player and either a) integrated into existing class; b) or simply relocate identification and smithing to OTHER classes who are almost as limited in their scope mechanically.
tl;dr Wizardry/clones typically give you a 6 man party but in real world terms it turns out it is a 5 man party as one slot will always be occupied by a Bishop-equivalent class the game requires the player to bring along for [insert reason here].
it's not a class you pick for your party because you want to enhance directly the party but rather you pick the class because of indirect, and sometimes for player-convenience which i honestly don't know how to term or what to call. it's not an indirect enhancement... HOWEVER a function that is a gameplay element that exists solely for player convenince IS in the end a part of the game mechanics; and as i mentioned once the identification pricing got tweaked the bishop's worse rose considerably in both ways: direct enhancement in-game of the party (more gold) + the rest of the stuff.
this is not a unique situation in RPGs, as i imagine you know. it's not a Wizardry-problem. this kind of shit design is everywhere; off-hand a quick mention: in Elminage: Gothic the worthless-but-not-worthless character class award goes to the Alchemist. in all other Elminages it is the Bishop, as always, but in Gothic you get a skill that allows basically an "item bag" that allows you to store a huge amount of loot that you can then identify in bulk and that mitigates the need of the bishop just enough that the player can dump him and instead take an alchemist along. (In elminage alchemists are amazing and with an incredible spell list but it's not a class you KEEP; it's a class you change into to learn the spells and then move on); however you HAVE to keep the Alchemist in order to level up his class skill of wringing more AP points out of smithing ores. a situation very comparable to that of the bishop.
personally how i would solve thisridiculous situation is making identification and smithing abilities class-independant abilities that are chosen for the player and either a) integrated into existing class; b) or simply relocate identification and smithing to OTHER classes who are almost as limited in their scope mechanically.
tl;dr Wizardry/clones typically give you a 6 man party but in real world terms it turns out it is a 5 man party as one slot will always be occupied by a Bishop-equivalent class the game requires the player to bring along for [insert reason here].
Machocruz
Arcane
Great thread. Wizardry is the king of blobbers/crawlers.
Question: are there any Japanese version of Wizardry 5 that have battle sounds, preferably with the same soundtrack? There are no battle sfx in the SNES version, which is otherwise a fantastic Wizardry.
Question: are there any Japanese version of Wizardry 5 that have battle sounds, preferably with the same soundtrack? There are no battle sfx in the SNES version, which is otherwise a fantastic Wizardry.
um, well yeah actually the ps1/saturn versions of wiz 5 (they're listed in the OP for reference), and there's the graphically superior port of the original wiz to the japanese PC-98 but it's a straight port of the original...
however there is a japanese-language only port of wiz 5 for the PC Engine (turbografx) that's basically a remake. personally i'd say if you already played the snes wiz 5, and don't want to play through the original version(s) then go ahead and play the wiz 5 on p1. you can change the dungeon graphics from polygons to classic mode white lines if you want, but still continue playing with the remake's orchestral soundtrack and battle sound FX during battle.
EDIT: however it does not have the same ost as the snes version. both OST's are great though. the ps1/saturn remakes ost's are waaaaay more low-key and moody than the melodic and catchy snes ost tho...
however there is a japanese-language only port of wiz 5 for the PC Engine (turbografx) that's basically a remake. personally i'd say if you already played the snes wiz 5, and don't want to play through the original version(s) then go ahead and play the wiz 5 on p1. you can change the dungeon graphics from polygons to classic mode white lines if you want, but still continue playing with the remake's orchestral soundtrack and battle sound FX during battle.
EDIT: however it does not have the same ost as the snes version. both OST's are great though. the ps1/saturn remakes ost's are waaaaay more low-key and moody than the melodic and catchy snes ost tho...
Fuck yeah finished Wizardry 1!!!! Can I import my party into Knights of Diamonds on the SNES version? Or do I have to make a new party?
so many fucking brofists comte!!!!
what's your plan next? continue with wiz 2 on snes or play wiz 2 on ps1? or you could start up elminage 1 on psp... :D i can dropbox you the iso + emulator (basically the folder on my comp zipped up for u) if you want
i guarantee going straight into wiz 2 right now will seem same-y, not only ebcause wiz 2 doesn't really feature any mechanical improvements over wiz 1 whatsoever (many consider it the weakest scenario) but because it's not til wiz 3 and wiz 5 that they start upping the monty-haul loot acquisition and making better maps. the maps in wiz 1 are classic: if you've played a lot of crawlers they will seem quaint, small and easy but you will also realize they are nigh-perfect in design. no map in wiz 1 with the exception of b5f and b6f depend on any one single concept of mazing.
personally i think the best maps in wiz are the ones in wiz 3 in terms of pure design; and it's not surprising as the "core team" was busy making wiz 4 while wiz 3 was made by andrew greenberg's college buddies who had been play-testers / q & a / sounding-boards since the very beginning (wiz 1 was play-tested for 8 entire months before release). also wiz 3 features something they dropped later on and that is that invisible doors have a random chance of being visible by the player and that can lead to some truly awesome moments when you think you're going fucking crazy seeing shit that wasn't there before and when you go to inspect isn't there anymore, hehe. later on for whatever reason the only way to even be able to "inspect" a secret door and have it become visible was by having a light spell activated beforehand.
man, wiz 3 has one specific floor that has one insanely FUN gauntlet of a large dark-zone (deactivates light spells) and inside the darkzone is a metric fuck ton of secret doors hahahaha. very careful mapping both by hand and by dumapic is required and careful listening of when you take a step, etc. it's unique area because from wiz 4 onwards there never again is a secret door inside a darkzone...
what's your plan next? continue with wiz 2 on snes or play wiz 2 on ps1? or you could start up elminage 1 on psp... :D i can dropbox you the iso + emulator (basically the folder on my comp zipped up for u) if you want
i guarantee going straight into wiz 2 right now will seem same-y, not only ebcause wiz 2 doesn't really feature any mechanical improvements over wiz 1 whatsoever (many consider it the weakest scenario) but because it's not til wiz 3 and wiz 5 that they start upping the monty-haul loot acquisition and making better maps. the maps in wiz 1 are classic: if you've played a lot of crawlers they will seem quaint, small and easy but you will also realize they are nigh-perfect in design. no map in wiz 1 with the exception of b5f and b6f depend on any one single concept of mazing.
personally i think the best maps in wiz are the ones in wiz 3 in terms of pure design; and it's not surprising as the "core team" was busy making wiz 4 while wiz 3 was made by andrew greenberg's college buddies who had been play-testers / q & a / sounding-boards since the very beginning (wiz 1 was play-tested for 8 entire months before release). also wiz 3 features something they dropped later on and that is that invisible doors have a random chance of being visible by the player and that can lead to some truly awesome moments when you think you're going fucking crazy seeing shit that wasn't there before and when you go to inspect isn't there anymore, hehe. later on for whatever reason the only way to even be able to "inspect" a secret door and have it become visible was by having a light spell activated beforehand.
man, wiz 3 has one specific floor that has one insanely FUN gauntlet of a large dark-zone (deactivates light spells) and inside the darkzone is a metric fuck ton of secret doors hahahaha. very careful mapping both by hand and by dumapic is required and careful listening of when you take a step, etc. it's unique area because from wiz 4 onwards there never again is a secret door inside a darkzone...
Celerity
Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 1,096
So I was actually thinking about that. At one point they made it so you could only reveal a secret door with the light spell, not with searching. So imagine that. Now imagine a secret door in a dark zone.
"But you can't find it wtf, goddamnit Celerity quit trolling!"
Now imagine that, after going through a significant portion of the level you arrive on the other side of the secret door, which is not in a dark zone. Great shortcut design isn't it?
"But you can't find it wtf, goddamnit Celerity quit trolling!"
Now imagine that, after going through a significant portion of the level you arrive on the other side of the secret door, which is not in a dark zone. Great shortcut design isn't it?
yeah i really like that design. wizardry gaiden 6: prisoners of the battles for ps2 uses both systems: some doors can only been revealed while under magical light and others appear and reappear randomly every time you move.
in elminage you don't have to have any spell of any sort active BUT you have to press the search button for the door to appear which can sometimes lead to one doing the ole press-button-take-a-step-press-button-take-a-step... heh; although it's usually fairly obvious where they are. you just look at the map and try to pinpoint the likeliest wall that WOULD connect to the rest of the map.
in elminage you don't have to have any spell of any sort active BUT you have to press the search button for the door to appear which can sometimes lead to one doing the ole press-button-take-a-step-press-button-take-a-step... heh; although it's usually fairly obvious where they are. you just look at the map and try to pinpoint the likeliest wall that WOULD connect to the rest of the map.
Celerity
Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 1,096
"The dungeon is a conflict between man and monster. Man enters in pursuit of the unknown, and monster defends its territory. This conflict is eternal as long as the exploration continues."
Not an exact quote but a very fitting one here. The EO exploration is only ok but the boss fights are really fucking good and a line like that after? Amazing.
Not an exact quote but a very fitting one here. The EO exploration is only ok but the boss fights are really fucking good and a line like that after? Amazing.
Dorarnae
Arbiter
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2016
- Messages
- 721
well I decided to give up with javadry. I wasn't really happy with the monster/items and spell that I did, so I restarted all that and copied wizardry 1. but after doing that, I felt like my scenario made no sense now, so I had to redo all the map/event.
and at that point I was like ''well fuck it, I'll just play the first wizardry'' hehe.
therre's a few thing that annoyed me with javadry too. Can't rename the monster type.For some reason when I was testing, some of the lower floor already had a few section explored. the drop rate also work with monster, I would of preferred if it was by floor.
Couldn't have dark zone on pit. only one picture per type of creature. music seems to be midi only.
this is why I am kinda interested with five ordeal editor, monsters and items are probably already done...can put the music you want,looks better and probably not buggy.
and at that point I was like ''well fuck it, I'll just play the first wizardry'' hehe.
therre's a few thing that annoyed me with javadry too. Can't rename the monster type.For some reason when I was testing, some of the lower floor already had a few section explored. the drop rate also work with monster, I would of preferred if it was by floor.
Couldn't have dark zone on pit. only one picture per type of creature. music seems to be midi only.
this is why I am kinda interested with five ordeal editor, monsters and items are probably already done...can put the music you want,looks better and probably not buggy.
Celerity
Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 1,096
There's like 20 threads for this and I can't keep them straight anymore. Do you have this registered anywhere?
Swords and Serpents (NES), 1990
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_and_Serpents
Swords and Serpents (NES), 1990
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_and_Serpents
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