Wizardry Long Live Wizardry! (And The All-New Games By Ex-Wizardry Developers)

[victim]

those are post game monster though. the monster in main game aren't that big, they're not bad but ...I liked the npc art tho(random party you encounter...).
the first SMT isn't too long, if you're careful with the auto battle it shouldn't be too hard. I think I died only once last time I played and it was some stupid mistake.

Man I dunno what to play next!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really want to finish Wiz 1 on PSX and move on to something else, not cuz I dislike Wiz 1 (I love it in fact), but I've got all these interesting games lined up. I've got games in progress going on in Elminage Original (3DS), Shin Megami Tensei: Deep Strange Journey (3DS), Shin Megami Tensei (PSX), Generation Xth CODE HAZARD (PC), and Stranger of Sword City (PC). I've put several hours into all of these and am enjoying them, but work got busy mid-last year and hasn't slowed down, so had to put everything on hold, basically.

I go back and forth on the SMT games. I generally despise monster collecting games, and the legendary difficulty of the SMT games really makes it only worse for me—I have zero patience to go around recruiting monsters, and it's only worse that the core loop of these games seems to be "get to new area/boss, get wiped out, then go around recruiting/fusing monsters to exploit what you learned by getting wiped out" and that really does not interest me at all.

HOWEVER the human characters in the first SMT are so overwhelmingly powerful that you really don't have to worry too much about recruiting/fusing monsters. Meanwhile, SMT: SJ/DSJ is so user-friendly and provides you with so much information in-game, that recruiting/fusing is really no trouble at all.

HAVING SAID THAT, the atmosphere in Wizardry: Dimguil has really fascinated me, just from the screenshots I've seen and the video Dorarnae linked just above, so I might just go straight to that after finishing Wiz 1.

I have almost the exact same backlist of games for almost exactly the same reason. I think I'm missing something about grinding in EO. I also dislike monster collecting games but I did get into Strange Journey (before its infinite reissues/remakes/whatever). It was cool but I didn't totally love and I don't recall completing it all the way through (but didn't that come out initially come out last decade?)

I like Stranger of Sword City and Code Hazard but don't consider them classics or anywhere near that level.

 

[Dorarnae]

my god, fuck wizardry 7 sometime. I keep meeting the stupid npc , I just want to grind. -_-

 

[newtmonkey]

Got paranoid about disc-based systems breaking down (mostly due to bad luck I've had with used Dreamcast and PS2 consoles), but I hate playing on emulators due to inaccuracies and input/display/OS latency, so I have been looking into ways to create a more permanent solution for playing (especially) PSX games.

There is a drive emulator you can buy that is very expensive, only works with the original PSX hardware (with expansion port on back), and requires soldering, etc., so I put that aside as an option and kept looking.

It turns out that the PSP Go, even though everyone hated it when it came out, is now easily hackable into a near perfect PSX mini console.

I picked a used one up for just under $100 in great condition complete (and with extra 16 gig card), spent 5 mins loading a custom firmware, and now can just drag and drop PSX eboot files onto the system (and of course can also play PSP isos).

On top of that, you can connect a PS3 wireless controller and can even plug the PSP Go into a TV, and you basically have an easily hackable PSX/PSP console.

I loaded it up with the three Elminage games, at first just to compare with the 3DS versions.
I was immediately struck by how sharp and colorful the PSP screen is. I guess I had forgotten how powerful this old hardware really is. I initially wanted just to compare, but the game looks so much better on PSP, I'll probably just start over and play 1-3 on PSP. Gothic, however, will be on the 3DS or PC.

 

[aweigh]

Yeah, 3DS vers. are also locked at 20fps for some reason. It's barely noticeable considering it's a grid-based turn-based game but wtf?

 

[newtmonkey]

Plus the 3DS screen is just worse than that of the (original!) PSP... lower resolution, worse black level, duller colors, etc.

I got my PSP component cables and connected up to my living room LCD thru Framemeister, and Elminage is a thing of beauty. Not as nice as the PC port of course (480 x 272 vs 1920 x 1080 resolution), but very nice indeed.

 

[aweigh]

Gotta make the obligatory mention that PC versions are beautiful, of Original and Gothic. Also I do want to point out that even with the additions to the 3DS version of Gothic, I do still think that the original version on PC (or PSP) is superior because it features the original design: limited Magic Maps (like in Starfish's previous games, the Wizardry Empire series), and "harder" dungeon designs (i.e. more interesting).

The 3DS version of Gothic changed about half of the game's maps to be "easier", basically they made them less maze-like and added shortcuts. It does feature the addition of 4 recruitable NPCs, about 5 or 6 new enemies, around 20-25 new items and the option to steal enemy weapons (further increasing the usable weapon count), an NPC who allows fighting defeated bosses and a new, mega-ultra-final version of the end boss for fighting.

NOTE: The NPCs added on E: Gothic for the 3DS ver. only have an introductory dialog; they do not have any quests or anything of the sort attached to them, nor do they interact with anything. They do come with all-new items, which are "OP".

Yeah, it sounds like a lot of additions (and they are, I suppose), but it's obvious they didn't balance around any of the new items or the new steal-able enemy weapons. Pretty much every single one of the new weapons is terribly over-powered (the new Leaf Blade from the Tree Dungeon is the most egregious offender because of how early it drops), and the steal-able enemy weapons are superfluous as 95% of them are "useless" (there's no good reason to use them)...

...but the biggest reason I consider the PC version better is that they also went ahead and nerfed the stats on a large amount of enemies in the 3DS version. I think playing the harder original version of Gothic is a more rewarding experience, and that while the additions of the 3DS version are nice, the changes to dungeons and to enemy stats (and changed item stats as well) accumulate and dilute the challenge.

I played through Gothic multiple times on PC, and played through the 3DS version once, and I have to say: the PC (or PSP) version is, overall, a superior experience. I suggest leaving the 3DS version for a 2nd playthrough, as the changed dungeons make it feel like a sufficiently new-ish experience.

EDIT: As for E: Original, all versions (except the original Original on PS2) are the same, and the 3DS ver. doesn't have any additional content. It looks BEAUTIFUL on PC, so that would be my recommended version.

 

[aweigh]

All that said, any version of Elminage is still a fantastic experience. Anyone who's strapped for time or only plans to play it once: play whatever version you have at hand. I'm essentially splitting hairs really.

 

[newtmonkey]

The great thing about true Wizardry and heavily Wiz-inspired games is that they are endlessly replayable, though you would at first think that's not the case (since the dungeons are fixed). Even playing the same/similar party a second time can get you a very different experience due to random stat rolls during character creation and upon level up, and floor-based random loot.

Once I am done with Wiz 1-3 on PSX, I plan to put Wiz 4 & 5 off for a bit and play the trilogy on SFC, as the graphics and music give it a very different feel from the arguably superior PSX versions.

Same with Elminage... my plan is to play 1-4 on my newfound love the PSP, and then go through 1 and 4 on PC, then replay 1-4 on 3DS when I am old and grey and have forgotten everything.

I finally got my PS3 controller paired with my PSP Go, so I can play Elminage on the go when I am away from home or at the office and want to take short breaks, or plugged into my TV as a mini "PSX 1.5" when I want to relax at home on the sofa. What a glorious age we live in.

 

[Twizman]

Prisoners of the Battles is a beautiful game. I'm hesitant to play it though due to the lack of an automap. The only Wizardries I made it through so far are I and V (psx). V on psx has a great automap. There is also a concise English guide for Wizardry V at tk421.net. The Japanese Prisoners of the Battles websites I found seemed fairly incomprehensible.

 

[Dorarnae]

Prisoners of the Battles is a beautiful game. I'm hesitant to play it though due to the lack of an automap. The only Wizardries I made it through so far are I and V (psx). V on psx has a great automap. There is also a concise English guide for Wizardry V at tk421.net. The Japanese Prisoners of the Battles websites I found seemed fairly incomprehensible.

You can check the map with a spell and I think there are items too? near the end of each floor you have a switch that will display a mini map.

 

[Twizman]

Yeah I noticed that watching Itachan's playthrough last night. I think I would usually forget the directions after using dumapic pretty quickly :D my sense of direction isn't great.

 

[aweigh]

Make your own

You don't need graph paper, just regular printer paper and a pen does the trick. A circle or small square for a room, a hallway represented by a straight simple line, etc. I mean, it's not like you have to draw things.

In any case, each dungeon floor has a switch which activates the map, as Dorar said. You can also use a spell.

Message brought to you from my Tap-a-incel

 

[newtmonkey]

Twizman Itachan's youtube channel is gold, but too bad lately he seems to be just playing fighting games. Had to unsubscribe because my home page was getting flooded with his Street Fighter videos a while back.

I used to just put his Wiz videos on in the background while working, I especially liked his all mage run of Wiz 1

 

[newtmonkey]

Put some more time into Elminage Original on PSP tonight. It started raining something fierce around 8pm or so last night, and after watching a few episode of Mindhunter, my wife put on American Beauty, and so the time was right for some dungeon crawling.

The melancholy atmosphere of Elminage Gothic would have been more suitable, but alas, I am still several games away from that one.

I've just about caught up to my progress in the 3DS version (the PSP version looks SO MUCH BETTER, plus I can play it on my living room TV when I don't feel like squinting at a tiny screen). I've got a pretty basic party (Fighter, Gladiator, Priest, Thief, Mage, Mage). Last time I had two fighters instead, and the gladiator was a great choice thus far... his damage output is pretty insane. I forged his two bandages with sleep, and since he hits 3-4 times nearly every attack, he either kills whatever he hits or puts it to sleep.

This time around I've been spending my extra gold on leveling a bishop and alchemist that I leave drinking at the bar semi-permanently. Actually, one of my mages has leveled to the point where he can be switched over to an alchemist, but I want to get his highest tier spells before I consider it.

I've got the first two levels of the first dungeon, the first level (all four quads) of the woods, and the whole first level of the marsh (plus half the "mirror" side) explored. I know it's not much, and I am still waaaaay early into the game, but I am just having a ball exploring and learning about the game.

As far as I am concerned, this game is basically the ultimate evolution of the classic Wiz formula. It's got everything classic Wiz has got going for it, plus several interesting new classes (esp the alchemist, wow), a really intelligent forging system (that's that alchemist again), nonlinear progression, more NPC interaction than Wiz 1-3 PLUS sidequests, and GREAT "high-res" monster art. The only way it falls short is in the dungeon design, which is too mazey for me (I really like the dungeon layouts in Wiz 1, which are mazes also, but each maze is intelligently split into several sub-mazes OR a simple maze until you turn on the light spell and find the hidden doors and it turns into an EVEN BIGGER MAZE and is almost like exploring an entirely new level). I do, however, like the Mirror Marsh, it's a cool concept and, unlike the forest dungeon, it isn't just a bunch of nonsensical walls standing in your way.

I've finally got my PSP cradle, power cable, and video cable all set up. The cradle was a bitch to find, and I finally resorted to just paying top dollar for it on Yahoo Auction, and while I don't like how much I paid for it, it is a quality product (as Sony products tend to be), so I'm not too upset. I also had some time yesterday to drag my old PS3 out from storage and use it to pair my PSP and PS3 controller together, so I've basically got a Playstation 1.5 hooked up to my TV now.

I never got a PSP back in the day, though I did have one for a short while a few years ago for my 1.5 hour one-way commute to work (and then sold it), so I never really appreciated it but... wow, this thing is seriously impressive. Higher resolution than the 3DS, and I dare say it runs games that the 3DS would struggle with now (for ex, there are no Musou games on 3DS, but the LOWLY PSP FROM SEVERAL YEARS PRIOR has an extremely impressive port of the PS3/Xbox360 Orochi Muso/Warriors 2 game). I have it hooked up to my living room LCD TC via a Framemeister upscaled, and even my wife was impressed when I was playing Elminage Original ("Is this PSP? the graphics are great!")

 

[newtmonkey]

PS Twizman You might want to give mapping on paper a try. It's not something that would seem fun if you've never done it before, but when I was playing DOS versions of Wiz 1, M&M 1, Pool of Radiance, and even Dungeon Master, I got out the pad of graph paper and starting drawing. It was really enjoyable, almost relaxing in a way. It seems like busywork if you don't try it, but once you try it you might be surprised. It's also nice that I can look back even after finishing a game and see those maps in my bookcase. (I even went so far as to map the dungeons in Final Fantasy 1-2, Mother, and Dragon Warrior 1-2 when I played/replayed them a few years ago).

Especially in a game like Wizardry, drawing maps is really part of the game, since dealing with teleports, spinners, dark zones, etc. is as much a part of the game as managing your spell resources.

 

[aweigh]

Mindhunter was genius series.

Yeah, playing Elminage games really makes you appreciate how utterly perfect the classic Wizardry formula is due to its simplicity and its capacity for modulation and iteration; it ends up being an almost endless gameplay blueprint, malleable but with a rock-solid foundation.

I can't remember right now if you have or not, but in case you haven't: don't forget about Wiz Empire series. 1 and 2 are on PC and those versions have additional content that the PSX versions do not have, and Emp 3 is on PSP and PS2, and PSP version is the definitive one with an extra dungeon and a "sprinting" option to walk faster.

But seriously, Empire 2 is my favorite Wizardry, with Wizardry 5 in second place. It is just so good, and it is made more interesting for Elminage players because you can see the Elminage formula take shape before your very eyes; Empire 2 plays essentially like an Elminage game in Wizardry clothing.

(Not to mention that Starfish has been reusing enemy sprite art since Empire 1 all the way to Elminage: Gothic, lulz).

Another gem you might forget but you should most DEFINITELY add to your list is Starfish's "remake" of Wiz 1 on Nintendo DS called Wizardry: Asterisk. It's loosely labeled a remake though it's kind of not, it just shares the same premise and amount of dungeons. It's set in feudal japan and instead of Werdna you have a demonic Nobunaga. It uses a mix of Wiz Empire mechanics along with a return to some more classical options (or lack thereof), and uses a weird mini-game for inspecting chests that I found tedious; but overall it is very good.

I never bothered finishing it but I enjoyed the time I spent with it.

 

[newtmonkey]

Mindhunter is nearly perfect as far as I am concerned. I was happy to see they don't shake the camera around constantly like most shows/movies these days. Too bad it uses that "orange and teal" color grading that everything uses now, but that is a minor complaint considering how great the show is. My wife and I are sorta serial killer buffs, so we got a kick out of seeing how the real people were portrayed (and the BTK killer "easter eggs" in each episode intro).

On your recommendation aweigh I have picked up pretty much all the console Wiz games, including Wiz Emp 1/2 on PSX, 3 on PS2 (though I will play the PSP version ISO), Wiz Dimguil (I am really looking forward to this one for some reason, it seems to be like a bizarro world version of Wiz 6 where DW Bradley was only involved in slightly tweaking the formula by adding some classes/races, and someone else was brought in to do the story etc), and then of course Wiz PoB and Chronicle on PC to eventually play.

I had been considering Wiz Asterisk, but could find very little information online about it, other than it's apparently extremely buggy (Amazon jp reviews). I'll have to see if I can track down a cheap copy.

 

[aweigh]

I never encountered any bugs with Asterisk, though I played it on emulator. That said, considering the backlog you already have, I wouldn't rush too much to get it. It's mechanically sound but it's just a step down from both Empire and from Elminage, and it's fairly obvious it was a budget job from Starfish.

(I suspect they rushed it out before time ran out on their Wizardry license, since it was their last ever Wizardry-branded product).

 

[Dorarnae]

Mindhunter was genius series.

Yeah, playing Elminage games really makes you appreciate how utterly perfect the classic Wizardry formula is due to its simplicity and its capacity for modulation and iteration; it ends up being an almost endless gameplay blueprint, malleable but with a rock-solid foundation.

I can't remember right now if you have or not, but in case you haven't: don't forget about Wiz Empire series. 1 and 2 are on PC and those versions have additional content that the PSX versions do not have, and Emp 3 is on PSP and PS2, and PSP version is the definitive one with an extra dungeon and a "sprinting" option to walk faster.

But seriously, Empire 2 is my favorite Wizardry, with Wizardry 5 in second place. It is just so good, and it is made more interesting for Elminage players because you can see the Elminage formula take shape before your very eyes; Empire 2 plays essentially like an Elminage game in Wizardry clothing.

(Not to mention that Starfish has been reusing enemy sprite art since Empire 1 all the way to Elminage: Gothic, lulz).

Another gem you might forget but you should most DEFINITELY add to your list is Starfish's "remake" of Wiz 1 on Nintendo DS called Wizardry: Asterisk. It's loosely labeled a remake though it's kind of not, it just shares the same premise and amount of dungeons. It's set in feudal japan and instead of Werdna you have a demonic Nobunaga. It uses a mix of Wiz Empire mechanics along with a return to some more classical options (or lack thereof), and uses a weird mini-game for inspecting chests that I found tedious; but overall it is very good.

I never bothered finishing it but I enjoyed the time I spent with it.

Wizardry Asterisk is actually what Wizardry 7 would be if it had a remake I guess. I mean it's similar because you have dungeon but to access them it's not by menu, you have a map outside of dungeon too.

 

[Dorarnae]

Mindhunter is nearly perfect as far as I am concerned. I was happy to see they don't shake the camera around constantly like most shows/movies these days. Too bad it uses that "orange and teal" color grading that everything uses now, but that is a minor complaint considering how great the show is. My wife and I are sorta serial killer buffs, so we got a kick out of seeing how the real people were portrayed (and the BTK killer "easter eggs" in each episode intro).

On your recommendation aweigh I have picked up pretty much all the console Wiz games, including Wiz Emp 1/2 on PSX, 3 on PS2 (though I will play the PSP version ISO), Wiz Dimguil (I am really looking forward to this one for some reason, it seems to be like a bizarro world version of Wiz 6 where DW Bradley was only involved in slightly tweaking the formula by adding some classes/races, and someone else was brought in to do the story etc), and then of course Wiz PoB and Chronicle on PC to eventually play.

I had been considering Wiz Asterisk, but could find very little information online about it, other than it's apparently extremely buggy (Amazon jp reviews). I'll have to see if I can track down a cheap copy.

umm I don't remember much if it was that buggy. all I remember is as soon as you get one item, you pretty much break the game because it gives a bunch of exp and you can use it as much as you want.

 

[aweigh]

Yeah, Asterisk has a lot of tedious walking around to get to dungeons and it gets old fast. I think the overall design of maps is what put me off halfway through. I mean, it still mechanically a fine game, just that this kind of game lives or dies by how much you're enjoying the dungeons. It isn't bad by any means, and I would definitely say it is a superior turn-based dungeon crawler over stuff like Etrian Odyssey for example.

Right now I recently began playing (from the start) Wiz: Chronicle, because I only ever made it as far as the third floor previously before dropping it for some reason or another. This time around I made a much better party and it has been helping a lot... Chronicle is ruff 'n tumble.

EDIT: Oh, and remember that Dimguil is the chronological series continuation/sequel to Wizardry Gaiden 4: Throb of the Demon's Heart.

In fact, you can actually even import a party (or save data) from the SNES cartridge of Wiz Gaiden 4 to the PSX game of Dimguil using a special adapter that was (obviously) only ever sold in Japan and only during the time of release of Dimguil.

Good luck trying to find one on eBay! Hah. You can probably easily find a copy of the SNES cartridge of Gaiden 4, but the adapter? Pfft. I don't even really know how it works, tbh, it was just something I read when I was playing Gaiden 4 and googling JP fan sites or wikis, most of which were full of dead links or archived.

Oh and yeah, Wiz Gaiden 4 is most definitely very, very, very fucking good. Dimguil has little or nothing whatsoever to do with the story, same as how Gaiden 6: Prisoner of the Battles has little to nothing whatsoever to do with Dimguil, but just felt like mentioning that chronologically they're the same series. Plus, you would probably notice the import party feature in Dimguil while messing around the options.

But yeah, Gaiden 4 is absolutely top-tier Wizardry. BTW, the first three Wiz Gaiden games are Game Boy games, and I haven't personally played through them but they definitely look like classic Wizardry.

 

[Dorarnae]

Yeah, Asterisk has a lot of tedious walking around to get to dungeons and it gets old fast. I think the overall design of maps is what put me off halfway through. I mean, it still mechanically a fine game, just that this kind of game lives or dies by how much you're enjoying the dungeons. It isn't bad by any means, and I would definitely say it is a superior turn-based dungeon crawler over stuff like Etrian Odyssey for example.

Right now I recently began playing (from the start) Wiz: Chronicle, because I only ever made it as far as the third floor previously before dropping it for some reason or another. This time around I made a much better party and it has been helping a lot... Chronicle is ruff 'n tumble.

EDIT: Oh, and remember that Dimguil is the chronological series continuation/sequel to Wizardry Gaiden 4: Throb of the Demon's Heart.

In fact, you can actually even import a party (or save data) from the SNES cartridge of Wiz Gaiden 4 to the PSX game of Dimguil using a special adapter that was (obviously) only ever sold in Japan and only during the time of release of Dimguil.

Good luck trying to find one on eBay! Hah. You can probably easily find a copy of the SNES cartridge of Gaiden 4, but the adapter? Pfft. I don't even really know how it works, tbh, it was just something I read when I was playing Gaiden 4 and googling JP fan sites or wikis, most of which were full of dead links or archived.

Oh and yeah, Wiz Gaiden 4 is most definitely very, very, very fucking good. Dimguil has little or nothing whatsoever to do with the story, same as how Gaiden 6: Prisoner of the Battles has little to nothing whatsoever to do with Dimguil, but just felt like mentioning that chronologically they're the same series. Plus, you would probably notice the import party feature in Dimguil while messing around the options.

But yeah, Gaiden 4 is absolutely top-tier Wizardry. BTW, the first three Wiz Gaiden games are Game Boy games, and I haven't personally played through them but they definitely look like classic Wizardry.

I didn't find asterisk walking around that bad. eventually your mage has the spell to teleport. Mage are a bit Op in the game at one point because you fight large group of mobs and they have lots of AOE spell.

gaiden 1-2-3 are probably good. I talked once with Itachan on youtube and he really likes the gaiden series.

 

[Twizman]

Itachan playing Street Fighter on his channel is all good by me, as a fighting game player myself :D

 

[aweigh]

Ironically all I have on my channel are brief clips of different Wiz-clones, and tons of match replays of Street Fighter. Crawlers and fighting games, the winning combination.

 

[newtmonkey]

Put some hours into Elminage Original PSP over the weekend.

I have got to the point where I can start changing some classes, and am wondering what you all think.

My party is:
Fighter (lvl 15)
Brawler (13)
Cleric (15)
Thief (16)
Mage (15)
Mage (15)

In the bar drinking:
Bishop (under 10)
Alchemist (under 10)

1. The Thief has reached stats where she can change into a Ninja, but I stupidly set her alignment as Neutral, and I think you can't change it to evil by fighting friendly monsters? So I think I'll have to wait to find some item drop to either change her alignment to Evil or change her to Ninja.

2. One of the mages can be changed into an Alchemist. From reading the excellent Elminage Gothic thread here, I know I will eventually want a powerful Alchemist in my party. At level 15, he has learned all the Mage level spells, though I guess he could learn more slots. Does that matter at all when switching classes, or do the slots just revert to 3 per level regardless? As Elminage/Wiz PROS would you recommend this class change at this point in the game?

3. I've been pretty much ignoring forging, as the game is pretty easy so far even without it. Having said that, I did add sleep status to my Brawler's bandages, and HP recovery on my Cleric's morningstar. Is there any forging you would recommend, like anything in particular that you can get at this point without grinding materials, etc., that is clearly useful?

Thanks!!