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Wizardry Long Live Wizardry! (And The All-New Games By Ex-Wizardry Developers)

aweigh

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If you really want a Ninja (and sure, why not?) I recommend re-rolling another Thief with different alignment now, because the item that changes into one (Silver Rapier) only drops in the last dungeon, the Dragon's Fang or in the Post-game.
 

aweigh

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As for two mages: No real need for two mages that I can think of unless you're grooming them for other classes.
 

newtmonkey

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aweigh thanks man, I made a new evil Thief and after a few minutes of rerolling bonus points got 26 points, and so after donating money to level I am now just a few INT points away from Ninja. :)

I changed my second (weaker) mage into an alchemist, and so far so good. Some very nice spells, and it's nice not to have to switch characters in/out everytime I want to forge.
 

Dorarnae

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I would not change the thief though, stealing items in original is <3, in particular with a brawler. as for mage, could go alchemist or summoner I guess.
I personally don't class change because the innocent cloak is very good in this game(you can class change with the medal of power in post game though)
 

newtmonkey

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Dorarnae
I ended up changing one mage into an alchemist, seems okay so far.
I am really not sure what to do about the thief. I am one point in INT from being able to switch to a ninja, and I dunno if I have the patience to go around stealing from enemies if I decide to keep the thief anyway (although, it's not like she has anything better to do in combat).

What I think I will eventually need is a second source of healing. The only thing that makes sense right now, without having to get rid of a character and start a new one from scratch, is to eventually switch my fighter into a lord. I'd really like to keep my fighter unchanged though, so I'm not sure what to do.

If I plan on switching my thief to ninja, does that cripple the brawler in terms of equipment? If so, I might drop the brawler, train up a cleric, and then switch it to fighter after getting max cleric spells.
 

Dorarnae

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Dorarnae
I ended up changing one mage into an alchemist, seems okay so far.
I am really not sure what to do about the thief. I am one point in INT from being able to switch to a ninja, and I dunno if I have the patience to go around stealing from enemies if I decide to keep the thief anyway (although, it's not like she has anything better to do in combat).

What I think I will eventually need is a second source of healing. The only thing that makes sense right now, without having to get rid of a character and start a new one from scratch, is to eventually switch my fighter into a lord. I'd really like to keep my fighter unchanged though, so I'm not sure what to do.

If I plan on switching my thief to ninja, does that cripple the brawler in terms of equipment? If so, I might drop the brawler, train up a cleric, and then switch it to fighter after getting max cleric spells.

brawler will need your thief for good weapon though. otherwise they'll fall behind with their bandage/tonfa. and you can get other crazy things like the death spear and phoenix feather...

also thief aren't that bad later on, since they lvl up really fast, it makes it easier for them to hide against some post game boss.

if you need more healing, you can change your fighter for a valkyrie or lord. lord is interesting but I prefer valkyrie.
you could always change your other mage to bishop. bishop are really slow at lvling and learning spell . while mage spell are quite powerful at first, they eventually become meh and you end up just using utility spell. like it's better to stack a bunch of spell and nuke with neo zedar(alch spell) for big spell dmg.
so with a bishop, having acces to cleric spell, you'll have more tools and get more cash by identifying items(so you can buy back level drained).
 
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Dorarnae

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here an example of a party I played in the post game (valk/brawler/thief/hunter/mage and alchemist)
 

newtmonkey

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Dorarnae
So it sounds like I need a Thief if I want to use the Brawler to its fullest.

That leaves me with the following options:

1) Give up on Ninja, start stealing equipment at lvl 26 with my Thief to turn Brawler into powerhouse. Turn Fighter into Lord eventually to gain second source of Cleric spells OR turn Mage into Bishop to gain second source of Cleric spells (though this will limit me to 3 slots (?) in each level of Mage for both my Bishop and Alchemist).

2) Change Thief to Ninja, replace my Brawler with ??? (any suggestions? Cleric multiclassed to Fighter after lvl 14 or so? Fighter multiclassed into Lord?)
 

Dorarnae

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I'd change the fighter. Fighter are good at first because they lvl quickly and have high hp (so with a dragonewt you have a good fire breath in the beginning), they might have the passive attack+1, so their attack power should be higher but having access to cleric or mage spell(lord,valkyrie,samurai) is better in my opinion +the other skill from the class, and valkyrie have a spear that has X10 dmg to god type O_o

I'd probably change the fighter to anything, even bard/shaman...fighter is the only class that I just can't keep pure.
even if fighter have lots of hp, summoner with their pet have way more so they make better tank if that's what you want.

pretty much anything can be good in the game. but brawler need thief and they need alchemist if he's not devilish, since monster items are mostly all cursed.
brawler are kind of broken in the first game, they have good monster weapon with paralyse on them, you can paralyse end game boss and for some reason they can't recover from it...
summoner need brawler to lower summon resist on monster to make it easier to contract some monster.
 

aweigh

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Yeah, Fighter's don't really shine in E: Original. It's different in E: Gothic because of the higher difficulty and the wider assortment of fighter-only equipment. Strictly speaking there's nothing that a fighter does that a Lord/Valk/Sam can't do better (in E: Original).

Hunter is also another alternative to fighter (in E: Original) because they get access to fighter-equipment as well. (They don't in E: Gothic).
 

newtmonkey

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Okay, thanks a ton guys

I am gonna switch my Fighter to Lord (eventually, he needs another 5-6 stat points to get there).

I am really not sure what to do about Brawler/Thief vs something/Ninja. I really had my heart set on getting a Ninja in my party, but then that would cripple my Brawler.

What about:
1) Switch Fighter to Lord (to get access to healing)
2) Switch Thief to Ninja
3) Replace Brawler with something (assuming I do 1) and 2), what would you recommend?)

If it just seems like a lot of work just to get a Ninja in your opinion (i.e. if Ninja is not even really fun vs. Brawler & Thief combo), I'll just switch my Fighter to Lord and be done with multiclassing til endgame.
 

aweigh

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Personally I'm not a big fan of brawlers, though I seem to be on the minority on this one. I mean, what I'm saying is I would just not use brawlers. I don't really have a particularly good reason for why, but never really liked them.

I'd get a Lord and Sammie in there, or Valk and Sammie. Thief versus Ninja is a real tough one, but I usually either brought both or only Thief. Stealing shit in E: Original is fun.

Clerics also get some dope weapons later on, like a Cleric-only spear that drops in Dragon's Fang.

EDIT:

Lord (or Valk)
Samurai
Thief

Ninja
Alchemist
Flavor class.

That's a pretty solid party for E: Original that'll cover all bases. Oh, and Ninja's in the back cos of Shurikens. As for whether Ninjas are fun... bruh they're downright insane in E: Original because of uncapped Beheading % and different stacking rules for equipment bonuses.

I prefer Ninjas in E: Gothic though because of their unique Ex-Skill of 'Replica' which summons a half-as-strong version of themselves in the Summon slot. If I'm playing both games at once or one after the other I usually save the "Ninja Experience" for my Gothic run, and use something else in Original.
 
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newtmonkey

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Alright guys, I took the afternoon off from work and here is my status:

- Switched Fighter to Lord
- Switched Brawler to Samurai
- Switched Thief to Ninja
* I was tempted to keep the Thief and explore stealing etc., but I might save that for a future playthrough or maybe even develop a new Thief after finishing the game but before going into postgame.
(I leveled them all up to lvl 6-8 using that Avi statue in the caves, and then got them all to around 10 through normal exploration after that).

So far so good. I've got some decent equipment on the Lord (he could wear all the equipment he had before class switching), Samurai has got (I think it called in English) "Helmet Splitter" so he is doing some great damage plus status effects when lucky, and I just found an iron boomerang for the Ninja.

Only problem right now that is the Lord takes a ton of physical damage even with base AC of -4. I am assuming it is due to his low level/stats right now.

I've completely explored:
Kradia Caves
Maulaia Forest
Mirror Swamp

I've nearly completely explored:
Garden of Light
Wayne Ruins
Shebe Ruins

Haven't touched any of the other dungeons.

This game is addictive as fuck, you always have several things to do at any one time (except for right at the beginning of course), and even getting a single level up for a single character can represent a significant increase in power/ability. I look back at my naivety merely 5 or so hours ago in the game were the sealed portion of Maulaia Forest seemed absolutely impossible without spamming my highest level Mage spells every battle, and just now I went in and wiped everything out with barely taking a sweat. (I know this feeling will not last much longer haha).
 

newtmonkey

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Elminage Original
Didn't have much time to devote to this this week, as work got stupid busy from Wed til Sat.
I explored a bit, got some more character levels, but at this point, having just switched classes for several characters, I don't really have much to look forward to for a little while other than just that (exploring/leveling up the newer classes).

Wizardry 1 (PSX)
Finally had some time (just now) to put some more time into this. Finally finished exploring dungeon level 6. I know that I am in the middle of the section of the game where exploring the dungeon is optional, but I am certain that you were meant to explore these levels, and, besides, exploring the dungeon and seeing what crazy encounters you can get into is the whole point! I'm at a good point in the game, imo, where you have lots of tools between your spellcasters to handle even difficult encounters, but a surprise encounter can wreck your day (but usually not to the point where it requires a restart). The big thing is that no one can cast spells on a surprise round (which I understand was not the case in the original Apple II version), so, unless you are way over your head, the worst that could happen is decapitation/level drain (I guess) on your front row.

I am running the same party I have been using from the start, Fighter/Samurai/Cleric/Thief/Mage/Mage. I dunno how I feel about the Samurai at this point. I'll keep him, but I think I should have started him as a Fighter, just to level him up more quickly. With two Mages, it seems like overkill, since there are very few situations where I would want to use the Samurai's weak Mage spells rather than attack, when I have two Mages just sitting there unable to do anything other than cast spells.

aweigh Dorarnae Have you guys played the PS3 Wizardry "Renaissance" games? I remember playing the demo for one and being annoyed at the anime art for the characters, but never put any time into it to see if it's any good. I ordered a used copy of the "Wizardry Perfect Pack" (which has both games plus all their DLC scenarios etc. on disk), just so I'd have something else to play on my otherwise Demon's Souls/Muso/Basara dedicated PS3. I would definitely like to hear any feedback/opinions you guys have.
 

aweigh

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Yeah I played around half-way thru Labyrinth of Lost Souls. It was made by ZeroDiv, who are the guys behind the Class of Heroes games, and it shows. I mean, mechanically it's a perfectly functional Wizardry game but overall it's a very big, very noticeable downgrade from Wiz Empire and Elminage games, or the Wiz Gaiden games.

I posted bits and pieces of my playtime with Labyrinth of Lost Souls in some other threads, I think for sure in the Wizardry thread maybe, and also maybe one or two mentions in the Emulation thread (I played it on PS3 emulator), but I never went into detail about the game because frankly I never got that into it. I remember I ended up dropping it in order to resume a playthrough of Wiz Gaiden 4 on the SNES and that was absolutely the correct decision.

As for the other renaissance games, which are those? I think the Wizardry Online MMO would be one of them, right? There are also two other jap-only Wiz games on NDS, "Wedge of Life" and one other one. Don't know if they fell under the Renaissance banner.

Labyrinth received what I think is an expansion pack (all new dungeons, etc) on iOS platforms, and on Japanese PS3 (I think). Never looked too much into it.

EDIT: The PS3-only Class of Heroes 2G (remake of the 2nd game on PS3) is getting translated soon. Don't know what new stuff it offers, probably a new dungeon and/or new classes.
 

aweigh

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Something else Wiz-related you can play on your PS3 is getting Wiz: Tale of a Forsaken Land. It's a PS2 game, but I assume one can play it on PS3 (don't remember right now if they ever added backwards compat back into the last models, or if this particular game got patched or whatever).

Definitely a very, very different take on the Wiz formula, more streamlined and more JRPG-ish, with no party creation and instead you create 1 singular hero and throughout exploration of the dungeon you meet other story NPCs who join you and they each have a set class.

What makes it actually a good Wizardry game is the impeccable dungeon design, and also the amazing atmospheric sound design. When I first played ToaFL I absolutely hated it because it was more JRPG in Wizardry skin than a proper Wiz game, but once I got past the annoying animation times (battles sometimes take a long time because of combat animations), and once I got over the fact that it was just a different take, I actually found myself looking foward to playing it and continuing to explore the dungeon.

It's hard to explain how atmospheric the sound and ambiance is, or the graphical tricks they use inside dungeons. One of the first things that caught my attention in the very first dungeon level was passing by a wooden door that was locked and suddenly hearing the door start creaking as I went past until eventually something starts knocking from the other side. Scared the shit out of me. There's lots of neat stuff they do inside the floors that I've never seen in any other crawler.

Some enemies sometimes will materialize into a ghostly humanoid shape and start chasing you around, stuff like that. The ambiance is always there, it always feels cold and lonely. It's not a horror game by any stretch but it's one of the most "lively" dungeons I've experienced. If there was a way to skip combat animations it would be damn near perfect. Also, not being able to create party severely cuts down into any type of possible replay value as well.
 

newtmonkey

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As for the other renaissance games, which are those?
I was mostly referring here to Labyrinth of Lost Souls and its sequel (which would have been translated as "Town of Lost Spirits" I guess, based on the title of the first game), and the DLC they got, though I think the DS games are also part of the so-called "renaissance."

I figured they would be not up to snuff, but for 4000 yen for both PS3 games + all (?) DLC on disc, I figured it would be worth picking up, just for something else to play on the PS3.

Something else Wiz-related you can play on your PS3 is getting Wiz: Tale of a Forsaken Land.

I have this and its sequel. :) I do like the atmosphere, but like you said, it's so slow that I have trouble getting into it.
 

Dorarnae

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As for the other renaissance games, which are those?
I was mostly referring here to Labyrinth of Lost Souls and its sequel (which would have been translated as "Town of Lost Spirits" I guess, based on the title of the first game), and the DLC they got, though I think the DS games are also part of the so-called "renaissance."

I figured they would be not up to snuff, but for 4000 yen for both PS3 games + all (?) DLC on disc, I figured it would be worth picking up, just for something else to play on the PS3.

Something else Wiz-related you can play on your PS3 is getting Wiz: Tale of a Forsaken Land.

I have this and its sequel. :) I do like the atmosphere, but like you said, it's so slow that I have trouble getting into it.


Labyrinth of Lost Soul is ok. I liked it because the loot works with floor/monster. so you can get some good gear early(like floor 5 if you're lucky) or have to farm for it later (on floor 8 for exemple or go back to floor 5)...many people didn't like this RNG drop but I personally like it. the DLC is ok I guess.
The sequel has 3 scenario. overall the game is ok but I prefer the first game I think. you have more classes and some outdoor map. the biggest problem is when you have everything unlocked, you can actually buy OP gear from the start of scenario 2 before you even finish the first scenario.
Once you get to scenario 2, the gear you can buy is pretty much the best gear in the game, so it pretty much end up being your lvl/party composition that makes the difference by the end of scenario 2 and 3.
the end of scenario 3 is not even funny, the monster will rape you. and then you have an optional dungeon with crazier shit:

it could of been awesome if they made grinding a bit more exciting.
 

Dorarnae

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and yeah the wizardry on ds are part of the renaissance thing.


I found the ds game to be a lot easier for end game content. are they good. I'd say if you're bored they're ok. just stay away from compile heart, funny thing is I say that and I ordered Mary Skelter 2 yesterday. I am that bored lol.
 

Dorarnae

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newtmonkey have you played the dungeon travelers series? if you can get pass the cute girl it's actually a nice game with an enjoyable soundtrack.
 

newtmonkey

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Dorarnae
Thanks for your impressions on PS3 Wiz. I'm not expecting much, but it might end up being enjoyable. At least is follows the Wiz template.

I don't have a Vita, so never tried the Dungeon Travelers series. I honestly don't think I would be able to get past the anime stuff, even if the games are good. :(
 

H-K

Learned
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Dorarnae
Thanks for your impressions on PS3 Wiz. I'm not expecting much, but it might end up being enjoyable. At least is follows the Wiz template.

I don't have a Vita, so never tried the Dungeon Travelers series. I honestly don't think I would be able to get past the anime stuff, even if the games are good. :(

ToHeart2: Dungeon Travelers and Dungeon Travelers 2 are also on PSP but I don't know if they lack anything compared to the Vita versions.
 

Dorarnae

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Dorarnae
Thanks for your impressions on PS3 Wiz. I'm not expecting much, but it might end up being enjoyable. At least is follows the Wiz template.

I don't have a Vita, so never tried the Dungeon Travelers series. I honestly don't think I would be able to get past the anime stuff, even if the games are good. :(

ToHeart2: Dungeon Travelers and Dungeon Travelers 2 are also on PSP but I don't know if they lack anything compared to the Vita versions.

the difference was some tweak. like with DT2 you could see how many lvl one skill had. and I think the skill frost slash on psp was sword only. on the vita version it works with any weapon.
for Tohearts 2 it's the battle menu, on psp it was like a reel. on vita they changed it to something like DT2

probably some other change, but this is what I remember and noticed.
 

aweigh

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BTW, Wizardry's spell system is actually very interesting. The names aren't "made up", they're combinations of true words of power taken from Hebrew:
TW1.png

TW2.png

TW3.png



aweigh: Ex I like all of the True Words of Power
aweigh: Given by Abraham unto Greenwood
aweigh: But my favorite Word of Power would be MA, which means "to expand"
aweigh: which is why it is in "DU MA PIC"
aweigh: Du = to bring unto yourself
aweigh: Ma = to expand
aweigh: Pic = to view
aweigh: Also why MA is in spells like Mahalito
aweigh: I love Wizardry spell system's true words of power a lot
 

aweigh

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The mechanical changes to the spell system were already bad enough, but it's heart-breaking how Bradley threw away such a lovingly named and thoughtful nomenclature.
:despair:

Good thing Wizardry managed to survive him.
 

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