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[LP CYOA] Epic

lightbane

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Maybe? It is absolutely evil within the confines of the Universe... which he would set out to prove false, invalidating any judgemental statements about it. I mean, the Masters did this routinely by creating and collapsing the Universe time and time again to get an extra Voice out of it. Are they 'worse than Hitler'? ;)
If it resulted in Senya creating a liar paradox that could only be solved with taking him out of existence and making it so that he never was... then would there be a galactic genocide to speak of?
It would not be a happy ending for Senya, but the Earth-Secondary would not drag out its miserable existence like in the ending we've got. Well, then of course it would be wiped out when the next cycle changes unless something was done about the Masters, first...
It is all kind of iffy. People in Senya's universe weren't real right until they were made so by basically an act of God.

Well, yeah, they were dicks. These "cyclic universes" were technically real and so the people living there were as well. I mean, the Voices confirm they're not mere programs and so do the Not-Illythids (who appeared when someone tried to bypass the "reboot procedure"). These "ghostly whales" also came from previous cycles or something like that, if I'm not mistaken. Ean also escaped from the pocket reality/dimension after fusing with the Tree, which means he was quite alive to begin with. For these reasons I don't believe removing Senya would be that easy: not only he's so ingrained to the system that it makes him practically impossible to kill (even for Shulgi), but doing so could create a system error that crashed the whole thing anyway. Even then, the people killed by the Goo Apocalypse were supposedly uploaded outside of the Observer's reach (and in such a state that they may never come back alive), so his genocide would still stand even if the whole thing was restarted.

Moreover, while Senya's Earth indeed suffered a lot, that's not a reason to go full lolChaos retard and exterminate ALL LIFE!! The people from the other space civilizations would refuse to die just because one guy said that the reality everyone lived in is false.

Lastly, after the Observer was dealt with and things more or less returned to normal, as I said before people could use the technology to quickly repopulate Earth, or even go out and explore the rest of the real universe, so it is not that much of an issue.

EDIT: The bit you mention about people not being "real" until God said otherwise reminds me of Digital Devil Saga. Chances are treave also took that one as an inspiration for the LP.

Anyway...

But did you read the DISCUSS!?

I tried. Once. It was the update before the Elder Shaolin Monks (those who possessed the ancient Chinese secret technique of summoning 1d5 pieces of wooden furniture, then engage into an improvised bar-brawl :lol:)
After attempting to read through several pages, then realizing there were at least twenty more pages filled with inane banter, I arrived to the following conclusion: NEVER AGAIN.
 
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Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I tried. Once. It was the update before the Elder Shaolin Monks
No. No. The one after, between Gauntlets IV and V. The formation of a Kandid Kodexian Konfession. I insist.

Only once you have seen this abomination birthed, will your understand the true Kunning of codexian Planning.

ERYFKRAD said:
Akkudakku said:
Can someone make a SANE shorter version out of it?
Me Jing, you thing. Ding-ding.
You can skip all the boring and logical attempts at rationalization and read the good parts.

Dammit, even though it was sometimes frustrating, I remember now why it was as much fun as reading the updates themselves...
 
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Baltika9

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Sometimes I think that treave does this for the sole purpose of lolling at the shit we can come up with.
 
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Don't mind me, my psychologist told me I should write this down. And to publish it, unproofred, on the internets.

Nothing below is "objective" criticism, just my biased reflections on this CYOA and others an hour after finishing my Epic-Legend-Spiral marathon that took...I don't know, a week or two? All my time has been overgrown, never known.

The thing I think most exemplary about treave's writing style is his ability to weave the string of decisions-by-committee, no matter how brilliant, stupid, or schizophrenic, into a coherent narrative.

In other words, (most of) treave's interactive fiction somehow has the superior flow and pacing of a more conventional narrative, due to a combination of his writing talent and rigorous planning. Simultaneously, the user participation enhances the work even to late-comers such as myself who missed out on the voting process, as treave expands on the worldbuilding and reveals alternate outcomes while incorporating elements of the discussion directly into the main narrative. The final result is enjoyable on multiple levels.

This is what made EPIC a fucking amazing read for me, and is also present to an IMO lesser extent in his subsequent CYOAs. Binging them was a mistake - overindulging in art, as in food, produces a kind of bloated, confused feeling. Still, my appreciation for Epic is sharp and profound. It was entertaining from the beginning to the end, and I actually thought it got better the longer it went on. Another one of treave's superpower is his ability to greatly expand the story's worldbuilding while maintaining its focus and coherency - an untold rarity in the world of internet interactive fiction written by amateurs. Again, Epic was a whole rollercoaster of forum-generated triumphs and fuckups that was somehow woven together into a complex and sensible system of (meta)physics (apart from explicitly gratuitous elements like anime mecha and black hole tech etc,) and provided a satisfying and meaningful narrative. Consider how Ean's final decision to sacrifice the Tree of Life and all of its denizens in order to preserve Earth is contrasted by Senya's rejection (of both Ean and his former self) of sacrificing all immortals in order to build the world anew, instead returning to an older status quo, to a more merciful and foolish end. In the story about immortals shaping human history while divorced from the cost of their ambitions, it is thoughtful to consider that perhaps the world one is trying to build is not worth the sacrifice necessary to achieve it. Or perhaps it is? What else could unite men and immortal but a recognition of this struggle. It's just like poetry, it rhymes. Of course, such subtext might very well be entirely accidental, but I don't really care if it is intended as long as I see or invent a pretty story that like.

Legend I thought was a really entertaining tale. To my taste it is not quite on Epic's level, lacking the P R O F U N D I T Y of the subtext and its narrative focus. Probably due to its more sandboxy nature, I found more hanging plot-lines and occasionally meandering pacing. Lastly, the discussion that was so beneficial to my enjoyment of Epic became borderline unreadable as it was not common for it to go on for 10s of pages of heated vitriol between updates. There is something fucking hilarious about the fact that Legend, in spite of being a shorter story than Epic, has a thread nearly 3 times longer. Still, much of what I appreciated in Epic I found in Legend, and the adventures of Man Harem Pig and his fateful end I will remember for quite some time.

Then, Spiral.

The first 4 nights are some of the most magical and haunting horror I have ever read, committing every sin that they could - so good. They invaded my real nights and days, and my thoughts at work and play. I was already used to the "quaint" quality of the early stages of Treave's CYOAs - another sign of his largely excellent pacing ability - and the first half of Spiral is easily my favorite thing he has ever written. Which set up quite as a disappointment as the second half, particularly the final night, turned out to be his content I found least enjoyable. I actually did not mind the ending itself - I thought it perfectly meaningful (in its meaninglessness) that the shell of the main character found its way into its own virtual sub-purgatory, having lost control to his real self to complete the futile ritual, the whole vicious cycle having started because of the obsessive inability to let go, and the shell's singular meaningful act in the entire narrative, that of letting Maeda go out of hell and into purgatory. Holy shit, I think I just wrote the worst run-on sentence in the world, but I can't help explain it in any other way. Unfortunately, up to that ending, the terrific horror/mystery atmosphere has evaporated into a vague sense of confusion and a profound sense of fatigue. Perhaps it is due to codex's stupidity or treave's frustration reaching critical mass near the end of the narrative, or my lack of culture leading me to miss the finer nuances of Japanese horror (I thought the UwU book and disemboweled maidens blushing as the sight of the protag's manhood was not conducive to the horror atmosphere, although I have since headcannoned both as being retroactive manifestations of the gratuitous illusion that ensnares the protagonist in the finale.) Still, it was something of an unpleasant surprise to me, considering how agreeable to my tastes treave's ability to weave Codex's horrendous decisions into a fundamentally satisfying, if bittersweet tale.

But that's enough negativity, because Epic I find to be a holy grail of CYOAs in being one I could see myself re-reading as if it were a book, so as to experience it from the very beginning and see it in a new light, have it grow with me. And I will find some way to save this entire fucking thread so that I might come back to it at some point in the future. Legend is certainly approaching that level in my eyes. And Spiral...is Spiral, and I don't know if it would be easier for me to think more or less about it.

Perhaps in a day or week or month I will reach Test Run a few chapters of Overlord and see what this whole Tower business is about. Until then, I thank treave for giving me comfort and unease for the last [period of time,] expanding my cultural horizons (you better believe I will be watching some of these ani-mays after reading this crazy shit,) and all of you stupid fucking idiots for participating in his stories. Fuck all of you, seriously. And thanks again.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
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Strap Yourselves In
It's just like poetry, it rhymes.
Yes.
Lastly, the discussion that was so beneficial to my enjoyment of Epic became borderline unreadable as it was not common for it to go on for 10s of pages of heated vitriol between updates.
Yes.
Then, Spiral.
Yeah...
Perhaps it is due to codex's stupidity
Yup.
Still, it was something of an unpleasant surprise to me, considering how agreeable to my tastes treave's ability to weave Codex's horrendous decisions into a fundamentally satisfying, if bittersweet tale.
The problem with Spiral was that we had all become very spoiled by the concept of reloading or reincarnating. We got used to the more forgiving narratives of Epic part one and two. And even Legend had reloading to some degree, so we had gotten used to the concept of abusing such mechanics.

Spiral, however, wasn't a heroic epic, it was a horror story. And thus, the narrative was a lot less forgiving. We ran into the same problem later on with other LPs that had no reload at all.

I probably should read through it again though, it's been years.
I thought the UwU book and disemboweled maidens blushing as the sight of the protag's manhood was not conducive to the horror atmosphere, although I have since headcannoned both as being retroactive manifestations of the gratuitous illusion that ensnares the protagonist in the finale.
Anime has always been an integral part of treave's CYOAs, even if he doesn't mention it explicitly, there is always a nod to it somewhere. Some people threatened to quit during Epic: Book II because treave tagged the thread anime as a joke.

But that's enough negativity, because Epic I find to be a holy grail of CYOAs in being one I could see myself re-reading as if it were a book, so as to experience it from the very beginning and see it in a new light, have it grow with me. And I will find some way to save this entire fucking thread so that I might come back to it at some point in the future. Legend is certainly approaching that level in my eyes. And Spiral...is Spiral, and I don't know if it would be easier for me to think more or less about it.
I often wonder what it would cost to turn these things into a webcomic.

Perhaps in a day or week or month I will reach Test Run a few chapters of Overlord and see what this whole Tower business is about.
I recommend getting involved with Tower before it's too late. It's still running.

Test run is pretty short by treave's standards and Overlord was unfinished - though I personally liked the "ending" and it definitely had extremely unique and memorable moments and characters. treave got really busy though and I think his PC died or something at one point, killing his storyline map or something (or maybe that was during Night of the Hummingbird?). I think the one after that was the space hobo one and then Tower.
 
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lightbane

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Dec 27, 2008
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Oh man, the memories, are coming back!

Legend I thought was a really entertaining tale. To my taste it is not quite on Epic's level, lacking the P R O F U N D I T Y of the subtext and its narrative focus. Probably due to its more sandboxy nature, I found more hanging plot-lines and occasionally meandering pacing. Lastly, the discussion that was so beneficial to my enjoyment of Epic became borderline unreadable as it was not common for it to go on for 10s of pages of heated vitriol between updates. There is something fucking hilarious about the fact that Legend, in spite of being a shorter story than Epic, has a thread nearly 3 times longer.

+1 Swords!
If you think anime discussion threads are stupid, particuarly those from reddit, you saw nothing.

The first 4 nights are some of the most magical and haunting horror I have ever read, committing every sin that they could - so good.

I tried reading Spiral, but I couldn't, I was a bit fed-up with treave's unpredictable and overtly negatives results to choices one can't predict (see "telling 'x' person 'y' and being violently killed as a result, or being killed by Theseus for no apparent reason), as well as Codex's bad decision making.

finer nuances of Japanese horror

Lol, no such thing.
*Points to the "that hole is shaped for me!"* meme from Junji Ito.
Granted, they can be good, but weaboo japanese horror stories aren't as good as western ones IMO.

AS for Tower, I dunno if I should read it or not yet. I'm afraid of seeing the return of "+1 swords!", or having our MC suffer horribly because we didn't correctly guess the right choice out of 3.
 

lightbane

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Theseus needs no reasons.
It still was a situation that came out of nowhere and couldn't in any way be predicted by the choice that had such outcome. All were variations to how to defeat the Minotaur IIRC, and none ever implied that guy would "help" in such way. It was a troll move.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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Strap Yourselves In
Theseus needs no reasons.
It still was a situation that came out of nowhere and couldn't in any way be predicted by the choice that had such outcome. All were variations to how to defeat the Minotaur IIRC, and none ever implied that guy would "help" in such way. It was a troll move.
It's been a while, but iirc, Theseus had no way of knowing we were immortal, so to him, our request for the statuette would have been unreasonable.

Also, we entered competing for the love of a woman. With us dead, Theseus would have been the winner by default.

There was almost zero chance that guy would have been a bro and risked his life to help us when doing so would have meant that a) he would risk his life because a dying man asked him, and b) even if it helped us, it would mean possibly losing the bet and thus, his love as well.
 
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Pretty sure at that point it was firmly established that Ean was just slightly above human level in power while the minotaur was clearly a superpowered monster. The decision to attack the minotaur was what killed Ean IIRC, Theseus just mercy-killed him, having no motivation to risk everything for a slim chance of saving someone who he thought (and was practically at the time) a mortal. I don't know why the retarded decision to attack the minotaur ended up being transformed into "Theseus betrayed us," in subsequent discussions.

EDIT:

I mean holy shit, re-reading the choice it is even more obvious.

B. You grab the thread… to prevent it from getting lost in the battle. Then, you attack the Minotaur again. This is foolhardy, yes, but if you leave Theseus now he will surely be killed. Abandoning a brave soul to the Minotaur leaves a bitter taste in your mouth – if this is the price to pay for regaining immortality, you do not want it. You might get seriously injured, or even die a foolish death, but you cannot go against your heart.

An explicit warning was given for this exact outcome. There are some cases later down the line that are more ambiguous - for instance the Demon question in Legend, but even those types of "get it right or die, bitch," choices I think treave only presents after a string of otherwise bad decisions, like using the tech-copying technique against the demon or indeed even fighting the demon in the first place - but I think this was a clear-cut case of Codex dumbfuckery. I cannot claim to have done better, in all fairness, as I did not participate in the vote, but I do recall silently screaming at the screen when I say the Bandwagon assemble at the choice that explicitly warned may lead to death for the highly dubious reward of a single man's favor.
 
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Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I do recall silently screaming at the screen when I say the Bandwagon assemble at the choice that explicitly warned may lead to death for the highly dubious reward of a single man's favor.
This was also a character defining choice that talks about the lengths Ean is willing to go to for his immortality.

It was one step on the long ladder that made him into a god who would later sacrifice himself and turn into a tree to stop Dio.

The choice was fine, and the consequences relatively well-telegraphed; it was the subsequent feeling of betrayal and offended pouting that struck me as odd. It was possibly because we outlived the immediate outcome of the choice itself, only to be laid low by another character misunderstanding the situation, which put the entirety of the blame on his shoulders as far as players were concerned.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
If my memory is correct, the Theseus choice made it clear that he thought he was doing Ean a favour by putting him out of his misery. After all, he couldn't have known that Ean was a regenerating immortal who just needed to be watered to be fine again. I didn't think people were genuinely upset at him, or at least if they were it didn't last long before it was just for memes.

Anyway, glad you guys enjoyed the previous LPs. To be honest I'm still trying to get my groove back, I think I lost it somewhere during Overlord and never got it back. This might be what GRR Martin feels like, on a smaller scale.
:dead:
 

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