In Progress [LP CYOA] Tower

[Kz3r0]

No, A implies that you believe him and will trust him.

It doesn’t:

A. You decide to take up his offer for now and work with the man.

 

[Orbit]

Let's go with the only sane choice: A. There's no shortage of dead people in the world. And with our hunting skills we're also well prepared once living specimen are needed for the next stage of the experiments.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

No, A implies that you believe him and will trust him.

It doesn’t:

A. You decide to take up his offer for now and work with the man.

So for now you're going to help him get a bunch of corpses and not tell anyone he just tried to sneak in and MURDER your friend, but YOU TOTALLY DONT TRUST HIM FOR REAL GUYS IM SO SKEPTIC.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

If we want to make a Faustian bargain for Liz's life, we can always accept the Hound's offer. I see no reason to accept the help of this wannabe-Frankenstein.

This.

On another note, I wouldn't be opposed to becoming a doctor, actually. Maybe we should snitch on this dude for brownie points with Doctor Muller?

It's a better plan than giving Frankenstein a bunch of corpses to play with until he can inevitably betray us and rip Liz's brain apart with a scalpel, or transplant it or whatever he intends to do - that he just now tried to do btw without any of the guarantees of practice or 95% certainty he just offered.

 

[Kipeci]

Eh, learning something from mutilated corpses is still better for the medical skillset than being a snitch if we want to develop that way. If this guy winds up being unhelpfully crazy with the corpses rather than brilliant crazy then we can begin pre-emptive Theseus maneuvering then. I doubt he has nothing whatsoever to offer us, even if he’s clearly a sketchy guy.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Eh, learning something from mutilated corpses is still better for the medical skillset than being a snitch if we want to develop that way.

But you're learning from a man who thinks he can cut the soul out of someone's brain with a scalpel and just now tried to do it. In the middle of the night. By himself.

Ratting him out to Muller for brownie points, as Baltika9 said, is a much better plan. We're already being allowed to sit in on surgical procedures. Why blow it for a lunatic who wants to cut into Liz's brain?

Just how do you think cutting into her brain is going to help, btw? Is her disease a brain disease? She was perfectly conscious throughout her illness before finally becoming too weak.

 

[Tigranes]

You're demagoguering the deal as some kind of incredibly immoral and dangerous affair, as if we're feeding little babies to Frankenboy and also letting him put Liz in a mysterious tube full of cyanide, but it's really not sticking. Way too hyperbolic.

The update very clearly states that we'll work with him for now, and that he pledges not to touch Liz without our consent:

I will not perform any experiments on her until we have ninety-five percent confidence in our protocols."

Now, if you insist that everything this guy says is a lie and he will sneak in tomorrow night to cut brains up, then sure, you gotta vote to take him away. Me, I think that Wrinkly at this point understands just how hopeless Liz's situation is and that every alternative needs to be explored before discarding.

Reminder from previous updates:

Elizabeth sleeps - it is all she does lately, spending more time in slumber than awake. [...] It has been nearly two years since you started working at the hospital. You have spent some time improving your knowledge of alchemy and arithmetic, but there has been no progress with Elizabeth's mystery illness. As she continues to waste away, all you can do is to be here by her side.

Elizabeth is not doing well at all, and we are also wasting out life away just sitting around. The way I see it we either go with Frankenboy, or we finally take up our big demonic offer after years of putting it off.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

You're demagoguering the deal as some kind of incredibly immoral and dangerous affair, as if we're feeding little babies to Frankenboy and also letting him put Liz in a mysterious tube full of cyanide, but it's really not sticking. Way too hyperbolic.

A man just tried to cut into her brain. With a scalpel. He outright said it and you're saying I'm being a demagogue for pointing that out?

Way too hyperbolic.

How in the hell is it hyperbolic? Read the text:

It should suffice to say that allowing me to explore her brain with a scalpel could be the breakthrough for humanity to finally conquer death! Now, leave me be! You are interrupting some very important work.

Murder? Why, but she is already both alive and dead at the same time. She would not die from something as meager as a blade digging within her cranium.

Keep this quiet from Müller, and help me gain access to the corpses necessary for my research. In return, I will cure the girl as part of my experiments.

He wants to cut into her brain. He already considers her a living corpse. He wants you to get dead bodies for him to experiment on and then he wants to cut into her "as part of his experiments".

This isn't demagoguery, it's paraphrasing the text itself.

Now, if you insist that everything this guy says is a lie and he will sneak in tomorrow night to cut brains up, then sure, you gotta vote to take him away.

And what would stop him exactly? The corpses we're volunteering to provide to him? The fact that we aren't letting anyone know what he just tried to do?

Me, I think that Wrinkly at this point understands just how hopeless Liz's situation is and that every alternative needs to be explored before discarding.

Ordinarily, I would agree, but this man has zero regard for her life. He thinks that by cutting into a living brain, he can learn the secret to immortality. He considers her not even fully alive. Read the text I quoted if you don't believe me.

Just because this CLEARLY INSANE man believes what he's doing will work doesn't mean we should.

Elizabeth is not doing well at all, and we are also wasting out life away just sitting around. The way I see it we either go with Frankenboy, or we finally take up our big demonic offer after years of putting it off.

The later is the more promising solution. And again, we are learning medicine as it is.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

For all of his mad scientist impression, the young man at least volunteered a diagnosis... and he boasts a better grasp on medical practices than Dr. Muller, or anyone around here.

No one else has come forward with a suggestion on how to fix Liz. No one even knows where to start. The man offers an experimental solution, but perhaps it is time for us to consider one now that most conventional ones have failed.

But realistically, what are we hoping for? Unless we want to become a full-fledged doctor and pioneer a new area of medicine all by ourselves, our best chance at finding the cure is encountering some kind of genius passing by. And we don't even know how much sand is left in the clock.

This argument is very uncharacteristic of you too btw, Nevill. So because we're desperate and hoping for some miracle, we need to trust a man who just told us he wants to cut into her brain? And not to cure her, btw - that was what he came up with after seeing that we care about her - but to find the secret to immortality. A man who claims to know the reason for her illness, but also claims he needs to cut into her brain to figure it out.

Is this really a logical approach for us? We don't know what to do, so we do SOMETHING, no matter how crazy? Just roll the dice with her brains because we personally can't figure it out?

Other options we burn away with this moonshot:
1. the hound.
2. learning medicine - real medicine, not this lunacy.
3. elf healing powers suddenly manifesting in Rain.

Once this quack turns her brains into swiss cheese, that's it. No more options.


edit: ok, I tried. Hopefully we'll get an option to walk this back later on. That or maybe this guy will suddenly be satisfied with just cutting into the corpses we give him, even though he wasn't content with experimenting on the dead before. If you guys are really this determined to try sphere diplomacy once again, there's nothing I can do to stop you.

 

[tsuke]

a

the only reason were in the hospital and missing all the other great opportuniites is the girl right?

 

[Nevill]

This argument is very uncharacteristic of you too btw, Nevill. So because we're desperate and hoping for some miracle, we need to trust a man who just told us he wants to cut into her brain? And not to cure her, btw - that was what he came up with after seeing that we care about her - but to find the secret to immortality. A man who claims to know the reason for her illness, but also claims he needs to cut into her brain to figure it out.

Is this really a logical approach for us? We don't know what to do, so we do SOMETHING, no matter how crazy? Just roll the dice with her brains because we personally can't figure it out?

I am a bit sick and don't want to get into an argument, but... yes, it's logical.

I agree with the points you are raising, that accepting the offer means extending a measure of trust that wouldn't be trivial to rescind unless the man does something blatantly hostile... and why would he? Our character does not have an understanding of standard medicinal practices yet, let alone advanced ones, so we'll have to take his word for it most of the time. I also don't think that even if it works, this cure would be complete and with no downsides; it just doesn't work that way with mad science.

But even though the man is self-serving and doesn't care about Liz in the slightest, he also has an ego the size of the hospital and wants to prove the local doctors incompetents and succeed where they have failed. We can trust in that, at least.

The hound did not make another offer (and in a way, it is no less of a lunacy to turn to gods; I do not think we have any more control over what it does just because it's in our head), the real medicine is powerless, and Rain is seven and no closer to getting superpowers than she was two years ago. It is possible we may get another shot, but it is in no way guaranteed.

He wants to cut into her brain. He already considers her a living corpse. He wants you to get dead bodies for him to experiment on and then he wants to cut into her "as part of his experiments".

He considers her a valuable specimen which is the key to making a breakthrough.

During the conversation with Wrinkly he comes around the idea of making her into a proof-of-concept rather than just another body to experiment on.

Edit:
A. You decide to take up his offer for now and work with the man.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

The hound did not make another offer

I thought he did, but we're ignoring him at this point. I'm too tired to look it up myself though, so I'll give that to you, but I think that he'd be willing to offer again, were we truly ready to accept it.

I also don't think that even if it works, this cure would be complete and with no downsides; it just doesn't work that way with mad science.

Mad science rarely works at all. We have only this man's word for it that the problem is with her brain, or can be fixed with his scalpel.

the real medicine is powerless

Individual doctors are powerless. Perhaps they just lack the motivation to research her condition more thoroughly.

I won't deny that it's a longshot, especially with our comparatively average INT, but the chance exists.

It is possible we may get another shot, but it is in no way guaranteed.

And I agree with you.

However, the possibility still exists, so long as we don't let Frankenstein scoop our her brain, or otherwise lobotomize her. Isn't that why we didn't take the hound's offer to begin with? Because we wanted to look for another way that wouldn't have irreversible consequences?

During the conversation with Wrinkly he comes around the idea of making her into a proof-of-concept rather than just another body to experiment on.

Hopefully he'll stick to that. And it's certainly possible that cooperating with him will keep him honest and stop him from becoming desperate enough to do anything drastic. It's why B is the worst option out of the two, imo, because it ensures that he's openly our enemy, but leaves him free to roam the hospital. (Though I guess C could make him even more hostile, even if he is barred from the hospital.)

That said, we are literally turning ourselves into Frankenstein's Igor here. We even have the limp. And in all likelihood, Liz will become his monster. Just so we understand what it is we're doing.

 

[Nevill]

(Though I guess C could make him even more hostile, even if he is barred from the hospital.)

Somehow I think he gets that treatment a lot. What's another ignorant ingrate in an endless line of them?

He might develop an obsession to open up his precious specimen if Liz' case is sufficiently unique, but it'd only be relevant if she leaves the premises of the hospital.

 

[Tigranes]

Look, the argument that this guy is fucking crazy and you think we should have nothing to do with him, is a valid one. It comes down to our estimation of his risk based on very partial knowledge. It's a tossup of whether we think we're desperate enough to try something or we'd rather sit here and not.

I don't think there's much of an argument that sit around a bit longer and the orthodox doctors will "get motivation" to do a better job. And it's hard to say why the demonic voice inside our head is any better than the lunatic in front of us.

It's just hard for me to imagine that we pass up both demonvoice and mad scientist and we will get some other, much more palatable and safe, way to cure Liz. More likely that she withers away and we also spend 10 years of our life doing nothing.

 

[CappenVarra]

if we want an alternate option to save Liz and don't think conventional medicine available here will do it, how about we remember the dreams?
- we met our soulmate Big Bad Wolf
- Sophie almost got obsessed / possessed by the thing in the attic, but as we chose to enter her dream she was saved and did not wither away
- Liz went to the magical city adventure alone, and as sometimes happens to happy-go-lucky girls all alone in the big city (who look after bad role models - that's Wrinkly, in case you forgot) she got... corrupted

we need some of the good hallucinogenic from our nomad friends or alternate sources, to enter the dream that's leeching off her and kill the parasite with overwhelming magical power of friendship, rainbows, shock and awe, and demon princes of strife

look ma': no maniacal would-be-Prometheuses with Astra scalpels involved

 

[CappenVarra]

i might be dumb and coming up with dumb ideas from my everlasting cornucopia of dumbness, but riddle me this:

a guy shows up and a) wants to cut your friend to b) cure death

you balk at a) so he says: ok, sure, whatever: you bring me corpses to cut and only later i cut your friend - and then we cure death!

you're voting A because you disagree with him cutting Liz just now, but the part about CURING DEATH is just fine and dandy, no reason to get excited?

also, i knew a guy with an Astra scalpel once: he was an educated guy with a fancy name, but for some silly reason he signed his most famous letters with Jack the Brain-Cutter or somesuch...

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

And it's hard to say why the demonic voice inside our head is any better than the lunatic in front of us.

Well, because he has magic powers and isn't just wanting to "explore her brain with a scalpel".

we need some of the good hallucinogenic from our nomad friends or alternate sources, to enter the dream that's leeching off her and kill the parasite with overwhelming magical power of friendship, rainbows, shock and awe, and demon princes of strife

look ma': no maniacal would-be-Prometheuses with Astra scalpels involved

it's a better idea than lobotomizing her because "well, what else are we gonna do?".

also, i knew a guy with an Astra scalpel once: he was an educated guy with a fancy name, but for some silly reason he signed his most famous letters with Jack the Brain-Cutter or somesuch...

But what if Jack the Ripper were the only Deus Ex Machina to come along for a while?

It's too late now, I suppose. The bAndwagon has spoken. Somehow, I doubt her father or Sophie would take kindly to us letting a mad scientist cut on her brain if this doesn't work out, but then, it's true that if nothing else changes, chances are that she'll never leave this bed. One way or another, A will likely resolve this, I'll give you all that. Whether or not anyone will be happy with the resolution is another matter.

Franken-Liz, here we come.

 

[Kalarion]

Look, the argument that this guy is fucking crazy and you think we should have nothing to do with him, is a valid one. It comes down to our estimation of his risk based on very partial knowledge. It's a tossup of whether we think we're desperate enough to try something or we'd rather sit here and not.

I don't think there's much of an argument that sit around a bit longer and the orthodox doctors will "get motivation" to do a better job. And it's hard to say why the demonic voice inside our head is any better than the lunatic in front of us.

It's just hard for me to imagine that we pass up both demonvoice and mad scientist and we will get some other, much more palatable and safe, way to cure Liz. More likely that she withers away and we also spend 10 years of our life doing nothing.

Well, at least we're agreeing on the premises for this decision now. Progress.

NEG (may I just say the temptation to constantly riff off that acronym is pretty overwhelming) already made what arguments I would have. The only thing I'd add is to reinforce what I said earlier; the psycho has demonstrated no grounds for any trust. What actions he's taken and words spoken are in fact evidence of his total untrustworthiness. And the longer we're in some kind of unholy "deal" with him where we unlawfully procure corpses, the higher the personal consequences to break away/rein him in down the road, since we'll now be more and more complicit in his lawbreaking (pragmatically speaking) and evil (morally speaking). Both axes are bad, but even if you don't acknowledge the moral dimension, I think we can agree that the purely pragmatic on its own should be a compelling case for not allowing ourselves to be entangled in his madness.

I still say going hunting with doggo is best option for now. I'm not saying we have direct control over him in any way; but at least he's stuck with us and can't act outside of our volition. In that sense we have some "control" over the situation, rather than having to trust to the actions and intentions of a loon while it becomes progressively harder to take action against him.

 

[Tigranes]

I can see the reasoning, but for me, making devil's deals with the literal devil living in our head is far more risky, unknown, and dangerous than... a rogue scientist with crazy ideas about medicine. For one, if something does start to fuck up you can try to stop the madboy physically and/or sic the hospital authorities on him; with the devil there's nothing but the nuclear button.

Capybara boy's ideas are intriguing on reentering dreamworld to find a solution, but for whatever set of reasons it's not an available path for us right now.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

I can see the reasoning, but for me, making devil's deals with the literal devil living in our head is far more risky

So better the devil you DON'T know then? Ok lol.

a rogue scientist with crazy ideas about medicine.

You accuse me of demagoguery and then equivocate and minimize the fact that this guy is clearly batshit crazy and told us outright that he wanted to "explore her brain with a scalpel" in order to "conquer death" and doesn't consider her truly alive at all.

Again, I'm resigned to the bAndwagon, but your argument here is a ridiculous strawman. We aren't freaking out and "demagoguing" just for pointing out that this guy is a lunatic.

with the devil there's nothing but the nuclear button.

I agree. Which is why we were waiting to see if a better option presented itself. I'm still game to wait for that, but I can also understand why you guys want to try something.

 

[Nevill]

So better the devil you DON'T know then? Ok lol.

Since I share the sentiment, I would clarify my stance.

If you guys are really this determined to try sphere diplomacy once again, there's nothing I can do to stop you.

Sphere diplomacy is a term reserved for negotiations with entities of a higher order whose motives are opaque and whom we have no leverage over to make them keep to the deal. It would be the spheres, the snake goddess, fragment-Seiji, the Hound, or even John Bull to an extent (because at the time we knew nothing about what he wanted, and the disparity between us was evident, though I am hesitant to list him since we had an option to resist and Tlalli had our backs).

Whatever you can say about the madman, he lays his motivations open, and he is not beyond reprisal if he breaks the terms of the agreement. In that sense, he is no devil at all, just a shady character with obsessive ideas.

we need some of the good hallucinogenic from our nomad friends or alternate sources, to enter the dream that's leeching off her and kill the parasite with overwhelming magical power of friendship, rainbows, shock and awe, and demon princes of strife

Actually a good idea. But the hallucinogenic alone isn't enough, the nomads use an Astra for their rituals:

“Good grief, that was a risky thing to do at your age. There was no need to play along with the Al’tayyih. You could’ve died.”

“Died?”

“The Astra that they use for walking the dreamlands is facilitated by use of a particular incense. It’s safe for their people, but there are the rare outsiders who have a nasty reaction to that sort of drug,” explains Tlalli dryly.

So we'd need to go back 15 levels to find someone skilled in the practice, which might not be happening soon.

(also, I was under impression that Sophie already had her skeletons in the attic, or why would she be upset at us for peeking the day after?)

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Sphere diplomacy is a term reserved for negotiations with entities of a higher order

I may not have the same user name, but I voted on that choice, so I know what it was about. I'm referring to what should be an obviously bad choice of diplomacy with something you shouldn't be exercising diplomacy with. Like a rat, which is what the meme originally referred to.

why would she be upset at us for peeking the day after?

Was she upset by our peaking? Or was she changed by our failure to remove her from her vision or otherwise affect her mental state while in it?

I thought her vision represented her dreams of marrying into status. Perhaps an internal conflict she was having, since she liked us and this new life, but still remembered her dreams from before. A way of thinking that viewed us as nothing more than a servant boy and her as the noble she wished she was. The vision caused her to confront that dream and perhaps be tempted to return to it.

I don't think she had any clue we went to the attic. I think us going there simply caused us not to be able to make any impression on her in the dream and thus it had its effect.

 

[ItsChon]

A. We should have never stayed behind to help Liz in the first place, but now that we're here, we better succeed at the very least. The Hound in our head was too risky, but this guy is probably going to be our last shot, and he's more manageable than an immortal demon entity in our head. Tired of doing nothing.

 

[Azira]

You're remarkably edgy considering the name you've taken, NEG.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

You're remarkably edgy considering the name you've taken, NEG.

Seems rather blunt to me.