In Progress [LP CYOA] Tower

[Nevill]

Bull is a known liar, who's had a fascination with Liz from the day we met him. And even assuming we could get him to train us on anything, you can be sure that his path leads to all sorts of immoral, inhuman actions that, frankly, the Codex is just going to puss out on anyway. We're not playing a villain, so why side with such an obvious one? It'd just put us in some bizarre predicament we'd need to escape from, probably at great cost.

Comrade Bull is a true British gentleman, and a gentleman is supposed to be taken at his word!

What's this about his fascination with Liz? The two have never met before.

“What about Elizabeth?” you ask.

"Elizabeth? A beautiful name, yes?" nods John Bull. "I have no idea who Elizabeth is and where she is, but why, I suppose we could just pick her up as we go! It would be no problem at all for a gentleman of my stature, hmm?"

I have no idea where the talk of training comes from -- nobody ever mentioned that -- but our every action is inhuman be definition, so your objection is moot:

The man sniffs the air, his nostrils flaring. “Inhumans… you stink of them.”

Shitposting aside, no one is choosing Bull to have a fun fun time in a fantasy lala-land, or attach themselves to a cannibal for training a-la Yang Xue -- it's just that the knight appears just as dangerous, even if it is only to Liz. Besides, Mr. Bull indeed gives me Brothers Grimm vibes, a dangerous monster to outwit lest you get eaten. It's a solid story material.

By the way,

Let's begin training to be a Hunter

I'm afraid there is only one Hunter here, and it's not the one you like. :D

He won't be training us of course (well, maybe give us a workout to tenderize the meat), but there is a non-negligible chance of this being a revenge scheme against Tlalli, which may have us cross paths with the Hunters Association sooner rather than later.

 

[Baltika9]

Nice to have discussion in a treave quest again!

Besides, Mr. Bull indeed gives me Brothers Grimm vibes, a dangerous monster to outwit lest you get eaten. It's a solid story material.

I could see this turning into a tale of Wrinkly overcoming his childhood trauma at John Bull's estate. But yes, I also think this will be a game of wits against him, for the freedom of our group.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

What's this about his fascination with Liz? The two have never met before.

I realize this now, yes. Forgot it was Sophie for a moment. His fascination is with children. "And he has preyed on many."

I have no idea where the talk of training comes from -- nobody ever mentioned that

They mentioned Yang Xue, as you well know.

Besides, Mr. Bull indeed gives me Brothers Grimm vibes, a dangerous monster to outwit lest you get eaten. It's a solid story material.

Yes, outwit, not go along with happily.

I'm afraid there is only one Hunter here, and it's not the one you like. :D

True again. It's only been 2 years since I've read that update.

Training to be a knight, a hunter, it hardly matters. What matters is that I don't sense the same hostility from the knight as Bull, even toward Liz. He could have killed us both from the start and didn't. Instead he wanted to ask questions.

Why is that? And why does Bull keep asking our permission to take us somewhere instead of just dragging us along with the sheer brute force he's obviously capable of?

 

[Baltika9]

Yes, outwit, not go along with happily.

Nothing happy about this. The other dude just tried to kill our friend. This one is 'merely' kidnapping her.

The former demonstrated his murderous intent, the latter did not. Not once has John Bull threatened to kill us, even if that is what we infer.

 

[ItsChon]

Let's look at the possible outcomes that can arise from choosing between A and B.

A

1) John Bull does exactly as he says and he takes us somewhere that is very fun and cool.

Obviously this isn't very likely.

2) John Bull takes us somewhere random, and we will have to engage in some sort of trial to regain our freedom.

• Trial of Wits - We actually have a chance here.
• Trial of Strength - We're probably fucked.
• Trial of Luck - Literally a roll of the dice.

This is risky. Lots of potential upside, but it has the chance to go catastrophically wrong. This is the most likely outcome.

3) If we accept John Bulls invitation we will essentially be dooming ourselves to certain death.

It's possible, but, as Non-Edgy Gamer pointed out, he's asking us if we wish to accompany him versus taking us by force. It could be that's his gimmick though, the victim needs to accept his offer for him to pounce.

B)

1) We reject John Bulls offer and he grows very angry with us as he did last time, and we will have to fend for ourselves with the Knight being little help.

2) We reject John Bulls offer, and he grows very angry with us as he did last time, but the Knight will jump in to help fend him off.

Both of the above scenarios are possible but I really don't know how likely they are.

3) We reject John Bulls offer, he leaves, and the Knight proceeds to question us. If we answer his questions amicably, he might overlook Elizabeth's issue.

This doesn't seem very likely at all.

4) The Knight questions us, we fail to answer him amicably, and though he lets us and rain live, Elizabeth is a goner.

This seems to be the most likely outcome.

5) The Knight questions us, we fail to answer him amicably, and we're all screwed.

I don't think this is very likely.

Surveying everything, I'm thinking we should accept his offer, as it has the most potential for us getting out of this thing with Elizabeth and Rain, while if we reject his offer, Elizabeth, the girl we've done everything to ensure she survives, is probably dead or taken away from us. With this in mind, I'm changing my vote to

A

unless someone can convince me otherwise.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Nothing happy about this. The other dude just tried to kill our friend.

This is just wrong. Reread the update. He specifically doesn't try to kill her. Instead of dealing her a finishing blow, he kicked her at Wrinkly.

Afterward, did he move in for the kill on either of us? No. He demanded answers to questions, albeit threateningly.

Is he friendly? Clearly not. But he hasn't decided we're animals to be exterminated.

Contrast that with Bull, who is a known cannibal and a liar who "preys on children".

This one is 'merely' kidnapping her.

"Merely"? lol.

This nonsense about Bull actually not being hostile disregards everything we know about him. What do you think "preys on children" means?

You're not making any good arguments for B, so I will make one: it could be that this knight will question us about our involvement with the hospital and then want both us and Liz imprisoned or dead later. And it could also be that Bull will take Liz regardless.

My only problem here is with Bull himself and the fact that he asks his victims' permission. We might lose Liz no matter what we do. We might also lose Rain in A. You assume there will be an opportunity to outwit Bull later on, but maybe this is the only chance to do so.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

3) If we accept John Bulls invitation we will essentially be dooming ourselves to certain death.

I doubt this is the case. I suspect a Sphere Diplomacy outcome is more likely. Lots of torture and loss. An eventual escape by the skin of our teeth.

Though perhaps B could have a similar outcome with that knight. Who is to say?

We are basically choosing whom to trust to be a our jailer: the knight or Bull.

Ultimately, I am choosing the outcome I want rather than what I fear, since both scenarios offer potential negatives. I want to remain in the city with Liz and Rain rather than be transported elsewhere with this fat child predator.

 

[hello friend]

How many explicit warnings do we need to get that Bull is bad news for Codex to take heed and see the danger? Tune in next week to find out!

Srsly, it's ridiculous how skeptical ppl were of good boy dogge who was an ambiguous character, only to jump feet first into the claws of this evil predator.

 

[ItsChon]

Fine flop back to B

 

[Baltika9]

“Is that so? Then I suppose our Order would have to take you into custody, and question you, but…” The man sniffs the air, his nostrils flaring. “Inhumans… you stink of them.”

“Bah, just a fledgling bloodsucker,” he spits. By the time he pulls the wicked blade out of her, you have already set Rain down and rushed to Liz’s aid, but your haste earns you nothing more than a boot to the face. You tumble backwards, sprawling to the ground. Another swift kick from the man sends Liz’s body crashing into you before you can get up.

I dunno fam. The man stabs our friend through the heart, beats us up, calls Liz a bloodsucker, and says we 'stink' of inhumans. The dehumanizing language is pretty front and center here, this man does not mean us or our friends well with his questioning.

No one is saying Bull is our friend. Both are dangerous, both are a threat. I'd rather take my chances with the odd Tower creature that follows some odd set of rules than with the Witch Hunter's questioning that will likely follow no rules at all.

Edit:
We're at A- 5, B - 4

 

[Nevill]

4) The Knight questions us, we fail to answer him amicably, and though he lets us and rain live, Elizabeth is a goner.

This seems to be the most likely outcome.

Not quite. I think the likely outcome is that all of us are taken in custody under suspicion of being connected to the incident. It is possible that, should we fail to alter the conclusion, Liz is not going to have a good time, but that's hardly an argument in favor of the alternative. If you screw up, you suffer; that's the law of these quests regardless of the choice.

I don't think the negative consequences will be immediate no matter what we choose here, and we will have an opportunity to affect the outcome.

2) John Bull takes us somewhere random, and we will have to engage in some sort of trial to regain our freedom.

• Trial of Wits - We actually have a chance here.
• Trial of Strength - We're probably fucked.
• Trial of Luck - Literally a roll of the dice.

3) If we accept John Bulls invitation we will essentially be dooming ourselves to certain death.

Likewise, it's not that John Bull will offer us a Trial of Wits out of sportsmanship and reward us handsomely should we win; it's that if we don't find a way to outwit him (outrun, outluck -- whatever is available at the time) case 2 will gradually turn into a case 3.

We didn't mention Brothers Grimm for nothing.

Spoiler

Also missing from your assessment is the possibility where the team splits. Liz is currently in John Bull's hands -- or rather, at the end of his cane. It is possible that he requires our permission to take us with him, but we don't know his limitations.

This nonsense about Bull actually not being hostile disregards everything we know about him. What do you think "preys on children" means?

Let's say he is not immediately hostile.

He is possibly also one of the Marked, as he both recognized our injury on sight and picked up on our dogwhistling. He has a plan for Wrinkly. I am not saying it's good for us, but it'll give us some time, at least.

 

[BlizzardStockholmSyndrome]

B.

There are a lot of arguments in favour of going with Perrot le Fou because, "In for a penny, in for a pound". I don't see an endgame to it, I don't see how the hell can Wrinkly compete with him or even understand his motivations. That's why the Knight is the best option: we have no charisma so we can't bullshit our way out of it - we just wanted to help our friend. Wrinkly is 14, he will be indentured to the order but at least he will be alive.

Bull will take us, use us and then drain us. Unless there's a Guild of Calamitous Intent that the Cannibal King of the Tower adscribes to I would take my chances with the Knight.

 

[Absinthe]

Eh, voting A. Cutting losses is not really the Codex's thing, or to put it in old-fashioned terms: FULL RETARD OR NO RETARD AT ALL. We already went half-retard, so we may as well see it through.

Also, you guys are all missing the possibility that the knightly order guy who has a thing against inhumans will take poorly to Rain. And by the same token, that Bull may do something to her.

Lastly, since Bull apparently cares so much about consent, if anyone has any clever write-in ideas to put us in a better spot, I'm all ears.

And on that note, voting Any Write-in Option (in order of most votes to fewest) > A.

 

[ItsChon]

We're at A- 5, B - 4

With my flop to B, we're at

A: 6
B: 5

hello friend you didn't vote, but I assume it's B? If so, B is at 7.

EDIT: treave Also how big are these beasts that we/Liz/the Knight killed? Can you describe them a little more? I'm just trying to get a sense of how strong/deadly they are, and how strong we are when our eye astra kicks in, as we did completely body the shit out of it. How much do they weigh?

 

[Baltika9]

@hello friend you didn't vote, but I assume it's B? If so, B is at 7.

I did count him earlier. You could have missed Orbit's A vote.

=== Tally so far ===

A - 6
Baltika9
Orbit
Nevill
Kipeci
Azira
Absinthe

B - 6
Kalarion
Lambchop19
hello friend
ItsChon
ERYFKRAD
BlizzardStockholmSyndrome

Come back to A, bro. Let's go on an adventure or something.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Also missing from your assessment is the possibility where the team splits. Liz is currently in John Bull's hands -- or rather, at the end of his cane. It is possible that he requires our permission to take us with him, but we don't know his limitations.

This is the gamble, yes. Look at what happened last time we refused. He didn't simply grab us, he began to transform into some inhuman monster. Possibly to do whatever he had initially intended to do to us there rather than in whatever secluded location he would drag us to via the mist. Then again, consciousness could also be a factor. Since Liz isn't conscious, he may be able to take her against her will.

However, worse than being separated is the possibility that we are together and unable to resist Bull. Bull won't just have us, he will have Liz and Rain and would be able to use one or both of them as hostages - or meals. He's already dangling Liz in front of us, trying to get us to accept his offer of 'help'. What more might he do once there are no threats around and time is not an issue?

I see Bull as a very high risk bet. We would be putting literally everything on the line - Liz, Rain and ourselves - to escape this single knight.

I'm not saying you're foolish for considering it, but I do think it's something we shouldn't take on on a whim. I would like to see a bit more reasoning than maybes or the promise of something interesting. Our history with round smiling creepy things promising friendship in these LPs hasn't been a good one.

 

[Nevill]

What kind of reasoning you expect to see for a high risk bet? How great it'd be if it pays off? If anything, this style of argumentation tired me out all the way back in Legend where the outright stupid -- not merely risky -- decisions were justified by how they would totally work and cost us nothing, simply because they were otherwise unjustifiable.

In this case, yes, I realize that John Bull is the more dangerous of the two, as a knightly order does not, probably, eat kids, and the worst they could do is punish us for our involvement with the disaster. However, it might not be the worst they could do to Liz, and that is enough for me to rank worst case scenarios unacceptable for either choice, which naturally has me looking at "what if you avoid the worst case" scenarios instead.

The positives of the choice is that we likely avoid suspicion for the incident, and John Bull doesn't discriminate. Yes, I count this as a plus -- diversity is our strength, haven't you heard? More seriously though, it means that if he needs Wrinkly's cooperation for something he'll keep the other two alive, if only to use them as leverage. The knights might not have this consideration towards our group, sorting us out into two semi-normal kids and a vampire fledgeling.

The negatives are quite transparent to anyone bothering to look for quotes on what little we know about the guy. They are... substantial.

The deciding factor for me, then, is the kind of story I want to read. I have a strong preference for Tower fuckery, and Comrade Bull is the epitome of that, from being a strange monster to having an Astra that would take us to another floor. We missed two years of adventuring, and now is the time to start catching up.

And Rain needs to kill her first demon before her 10th birthday, so there is that.

He didn't simply grab us, he began to transform into some inhuman monster. Possibly to do whatever he had initially intended to do to us there rather than in whatever secluded location he would drag us to via the mist.

Yeah, my hypothesis is that his teleportation Astra works on allies... and items.

He spreads his arms and makes a pirouette, his girth belying a surprising agility. “Yes, indubitably! My Astra, the Silver Compass, lets me travel through the floors in the wink of an eye! Why, my dear, should you care to take a ride with me, I will have you home and tucked in bed before the hour is past!”

He doesn't need permission to eat someone raw.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

What kind of reasoning you expect to see for a high risk bet?

"You want actual reasoning???"
Uh, yes?

More seriously though, it means that if he needs Wrinkly's cooperation for something he'll keep the other two alive, if only to use them as leverage.

He doesn't appear to need our cooperation beyond agreeing to come with him. Recall what happened when we last refused him. He began to transform into his true monstrous self. Implying that he doesn't need our cooperation for what he actually wants, merely for traveling.

Assuming you're right though, we have no idea what kind of cooperation beyond coming with him he might want at all. He hasn't told us there is anything he wants us to do, he's just promised to take us to a wonderful place.

He's literally the fat pervert offering kids some candy if they get in his van and you're like "oh gosh I know he probably wants to molest me, but I can probably get away with the candy somehow".

I have a strong preference for Tower fuckery, and Comrade Bull is the epitome of that, from being a strange monster to having Astra that would take us to another floor. We missed two years of adventuring, and now is the time to start catching up.

And yet if he did transport us elsewhere, we'd miss out on finding out about the knightly order of this city and its politics relating to hunters like Bull. We might also miss the opportunity to get our scars healed by a doctor in the city.

We've spent so much time babysitting Liz that we may have gotten the idea that there's nothing interesting here, but that doesn't look like it's the case.

 

[Absinthe]

If anything, this style of argumentation tired me out all the way back in Legend where the outright stupid -- not merely risky -- decisions were justified by how they would totally work and cost us nothing, simply because they were otherwise unjustifiable [...] which naturally has me looking at "what if you avoid the worst case" scenarios instead.

What kind of reasoning you expect to see for a high risk bet?

"You want actual reasoning???"
Uh, yes?

Well, here's my assessment: John Bull has been firmly proven to do work for others, be a cannibal, and have a dangerously unstable temperament. Rain also instantly hid from him, so that's another sign that he's probably no good. That's the problem with the A vote.

The problem with the B vote is that this guy despises inhumans (Rain is also an inhuman), wants to question the shit out of MC without letting Liz do the talking (At least we have 1 rank of speech & etiquette, so we're not completely boned, just mostly.), and seems like he will investigate us thoroughly, potentially uncovering our role in blowing up the hospital (which he is really not going to like) and potentially uncovering our link to Uridimmu, which he will also have a problem with, since we're connected to one of the 11 primordial demons. And then there's the real risk that, of course, we get split from Liz (either because of this guy or because of Bull). Bull assures us that the knightly orders will probably kill Liz by the end of the night if they have their way, which I can definitely see happening.

So the A vote is a wildcard chancing extreme danger, but has the lowest risk of splitting the party. The B vote will almost exclusively rely on our speech skills to escape potential disasters, and is almost certain to split the party. We could end up completely alone.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

So the A vote is a wildcard chancing extreme danger, but has the lowest risk of splitting the party. The B vote will almost exclusively rely on our speech skills to escape potential disasters, and is almost certain to split the party. We could end up completely alone.

The reasoning is understandable if desperate and absurd, however, it's kind of a frying pan v fire situation. You want to take us out from the power of the knight and into the power of the Duke. We know the Duke is inhumanly powerful and means us no good will. We have no way to resist him once we're fully under his power and the power of his Astra. And he hasn't been anything approaching reasonable in the past, making negotiation later unlikely.

Yes, we might be questioned by this knight guy. We might even be found guilty. However, speech skill or no, this was all an accident AND one caused by Frankenstein, not us (sort of). We also have to look at it from another perspective: this guy kills monsters. And while Liz is technically a monster, she's one with reason. Both of us are willing to kill monsters and have killed at least one of them on the way here. Perhaps this order might let us live in exchange for us doing their dirty work for them for a while.

It's been known to happen.

Spoiler

The only word we have about Liz surely dying at their hands is from the Duke and he's lied to us from day one and is clearly lying about taking us to some wonderful place.

Btw, as far as the Duke taking Liz with him, it's interesting that he hasn't threatened this. He may have implied it by picking her up, but he's not saying "I need to take her for her protection", he's saying "you should let me take her, and you, for your protection". This makes me conclude that he may not be able to take Liz, even if we refuse.

 

[Absinthe]

Oh, it's definitely a desperate decision. And I suspect you're right that Liz won't consent if we refuse. Still doesn't leave Liz in a good position. As for the accident, we helped that guy set up the disaster and spiked his vial with our blood, but you're right that we can probably diminish our responsibility with the argument that we had no idea it'd unleash such crazy shit, which is pretty much the truth. I guess the only working option with B is to either tell the truth, since there's no chance we can get away with lying, and hope for him dismissing us as a dumb kid in over his head trying to save Liz, or stfu (which he is clearly not going to like). That's still going to leave us in deep shit either way though, and telling has a major chance of exposing us as someone connected to Uridimmu, and even then there's absolutely no guarantee Liz will be okay. Or Rain, for that matter. We already know for certain this guy despises inhumans and odds are his order isn't much better. It's fully possible they'll end up sparing MC and only MC (perhaps minus eye) because he's the human while grabbing all the inhumans.

As for John Bull killing us, if that's what he's after, he wouldn't need to bring us somewhere else.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

I guess the only winning option with B is to just tell the truth, since there's no chance we can get away with lying

Sometimes the truth requires more convincing than a lie.

I think we'd probably say whatever he will likely believe. Blame Frankenstein. Tell him that Liz transformed probably as a result of her sickness and whatever weird supernatural stuff, but that she's never killed a human.

It's rather unlikely that kids would be behind a disaster like this. Saying we have some kind of demon pact would probably overcomplicate things.

As for John Bull killing us, if that's what he's after, he wouldn't need to bring us somewhere else.

Untrue. He clearly went into some kind of transformation last time. One Tlalli didn't seem interested in trying to communicate with. It may have have been that whatever he intended to do, he wanted to do there before Tlalli intervened.

You have to ask yourself: why is it he wants to take use elsewhere? It's clearly not to talk as he has no problem talking in the privacy of the mist. And if it's not to talk, and he is a hostile creature, what could the famed cannibal want then?

Maybe he has a limited time he can keep others like Tlalli out of his mist, and whatever he wants to do to us involves him being in that inhuman form. Probably something he doesn't want others to see him doing either. So, what would it be and how could it be good or us?

I think BlizzardStockholmSyndrome has the right of it. He aims to drain us somehow, take something from us. Probably in a very unpleasant way.

We know from Tlalli that child sacrifice leads to power. (And kind does, really, but Bull isn't the sort to offer his own body instead.) It may be that's why the Duke eats children or parts of them. Perhaps he has something in him similar to what we have, and similar to what Tlalli's Astra is. Something like Doggo. Something that requires a sacrifice in exchange for greater power. And perhaps whatever it is in us that we could give him promises great power indeed.

I think it's very unwise to give him what he wants here. Both because of what he might take from us, and because doing so might make him far more powerful than he already is.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Btw, I recall last time that I was the one who said over and over that Bull was untrustworthy and wanted to eat us and some in the thread laughed me off.

And now, even after Nevill allowed me the opportunity to gloat my I told you so, here we are again.

Nooo! Gram-gram Tlalli!

And let this be a warning to anyone foolish enough to trust the British.

I summon thee, Lambchop!

Give them the best "I told you so" you've got!

Did I tell them about John Bull being a monster of some sort? Yes.

Did I tell them that John Bull literaly wanted to eat us? Yes.

Did I tell them that he wouldn't take "no" for an answer? Yes.

Did I tell them about the mist disabling us? Yes.

Did I tell them that we needed to escape as fast as possible? Yes.

If Tlalli hadn't noticed and intervened, we would have certainly died.


Again, I won't say that I'm always right. I admitted we should have picked the gun over the slingshot, even though it ended up not mattering because, when push came to shove, too few waned to shoot the guy anyway, even as a nonlethal distraction.

But in this case I was right. I was very right. So...

*takes a deep breath*

 

[Nevill]

"You want actual reasoning???"

"Okay, bros, what's your reasoning for jumping off a 5th floor on fire? Statistically speaking, this doesn't seem like a good idea."
...no shit.

I gave you my points in the very same post, but I think it'd be disingenuous to call them arguments "in favor" of a choice that would be transparently bad in any other circumstances. They are hopes and fears (of what may happen if we don't), and reason rarely enters those.

He doesn't appear to need our cooperation beyond agreeing to come with him. Recall what happened when we last refused him. He began to transform into his true monstrous self. Implying that he doesn't need our cooperation for what he actually wants, merely for traveling.

Assuming you're right though, we have no idea what kind of cooperation beyond coming with him he might want at all. He hasn't told us there is anything he wants us to do, he's just promised to take us to a wonderful place.

I hypothesized that he has an interest in Wrinkly, and in antagonizing Tlalli, and the two are not mutually exclusive. Last time we met him, he tried to "consensually kidnap" us and then made a show of threatening us in front of Tlalli to get a reaction out of her. I don't doubt his willingness to follow through on this, but merely harming us doesn't appear to be what he "actually wants". His plans go beyond us, and I see it as our chance to survive the immediate consequences.

He also seems like he is big on coerced cooperation in general, displaying this attitude during both our encounters. It works wonders on children, after all.

And now, even after @Nevill allowed me the opportunity to gloat my I told you so, here we are again.

Don't you dare besmirch the good name of Comrade Commissar Lambchop by bringing him into this. Only he who mastered Historical Materialism has the right to call people out on their lack of foresight. Only he who grazes the lawns of the Bourgeois and butts heads with the Gendarmes has the right to shame people for their lack of revolutionary spirit.

Horns like battering rams, fillet tough as nails. A non-edgy gamer wouldn't understand.

Deep is the void he left in our hearts by going deep undercover to further the cause of Marxism-Leninism. May his example be the spark that foments the world-wide fire.

 

[Baltika9]

Indeed brother. A moment of silence for Lambchop19.



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Alright, that's good enough. Vote A, people.