Interview Mage Knight Apocalypse Q&A at TVG

[ExMonk]

It may surprise you to know that I hold to deism, which means that while I do believe in a creator (or rather, a supreme architect of the universe), I don't believe in a personal saviour, an empathetic god, heaven and hell, or any of the religious aspects that typically come with the belief.[/u]

Sol, on what basis do you believe in a supreme architect of the universe (are you a Mason?). If in honesty you have to answer that you believe this in part because of the Bible, then isn't it all a bit self-serving? In other words, deism has always struck me as being all too convenient, so that the deist can say, "I'm not an atheist. I do believe that there is a Supreme Being. But I'm not accountable to him, therefore I am free to live my life however I want." Belief in a god before whom one is not accountable or to whom one does not have to answer is understandably appealing, but in my opinion, lazy. It is an easy way out. And again, if your belief in a creator is based in part on the Bible, then why stop halfway? Why not go on to believe all that is revealed about God. If your belief in a supreme architect is based on philisophical grounds, however, I'd like hear about that.

You seem to be a man of reason, so I will not hold your Christianity against you. Clearly, none of us has the ability to know what the truth really is, so all we have are our beliefs.

Ha! Sorry but I found this to be quite funny. I want to respond, "Thank you SO much Sol for not holding my Christianity against me. I am SO grateful." Whether you hold my Christianity against me or not means nothing to me. It is Christ you will have to answer to.

As to your comment that none of us has the ability to kow what the truth really is, I say, "Well thank you Pontius Pilate!" Seriously, aren't you a child of the age, bowing down unquestionablly before the "gods" of relativism and postmodernism? Actually, there are millions of us who believe that we DO know what the truth is: His name is Jesus Christ who says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). When you make the comment, none of can know the truth, actually that is not what you believe at all. For the statement, "None of us can know the truth" is an absolute truth. I would humbly suggest that it is not a creator or supreme architect that is your god; it is relativism. And in reading this forum for several weeks, I would say that relativism is the god of many others here. I can hear them chanting, "There is no truth. There is no God. No one can ever say that they alone are right. All viewpoints, all gods, all paths, are equally valid. There is nothing objective, only subjective. There is no absolute morality." How pleased the god relativism must be with his worshipers! How uncritically everyone accepts such nonsense.

 

[ExMonk]

What you're saying is that at the core of the Christian doctrine as decreed by Jesus, violence is condemned. Being a member of the Church of the Latter Day saints, I agree with this.

However, you also say that certain Christians interpret these doctrines on the basis of personal goals and ambitions which deviates significantly from the original. I accept this also. However, you cannot use this as leverage to position Christianity as a whole into the course of history because the basic doctrine has been interpreted in so many ways that you cannot lump them into this one lump catagory.

Whitemithrandir: I find it extremely funny that you, a Mormon, are taking ME to task for my understanding of the spread of Christianity in history. I find it very funny, because your entire faith is based on a history for which there is not one shred of evidence: that there were two great and prosperous races in North America that annihilated themselves through war. Only problem. No one has found even a single piece of archealogical evidence that these races ever existed. So I find it very funny that a Mormon, whose very identity is based on pseudo-history, is lecturing me on history.

 

[whitemithrandir]

Whitemithrandir: I find it extremely funny that you, a Mormon, are taking ME to task for my understanding of the spread of Christianity in history. I find it very funny, because your entire faith is based on a history for which there is not one shred of evidence: that there were two great and prosperous races in North America that annihilated themselves through war. Only problem. No one has found even a single piece of archealogical evidence that these races ever existed. So I find it very funny that a Mormon, whose very identity is based on pseudo-history, is lecturing me on history.

Hey hey hey, don't go there.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Sol, on what basis do you believe in a supreme architect of the universe (are you a Mason?). If in honesty you have to answer that you believe this in part because of the Bible, then isn't it all a bit self-serving? In other words, deism has always struck me as being all too convenient, so that the deist can say, "I'm not an atheist. I do believe that there is a Supreme Being. But I'm not accountable to him, therefore I am free to live my life however I want."

Yes, it is a bit self serving but you must understand that the entire point of the deist philosophy is to take charge of your own life and not depend on a higher power to fulfill the obligation and responsibility that you owe to yourself. While I've never considered myself a very moral person, I do believe in the concept of reciprocity and the importance of social values. Society and furthermore civilization is what defines us as human beings, what separates us from criminals and wild animals.

Belief in a god before whom one is not accountable or to whom one does not have to answer is understandably appealing, but in my opinion, lazy. It is an easy way out. And again, if your belief in a creator is based in part on the Bible, then why stop halfway? Why not go on to believe all that is revealed about God. If your belief in a supreme architect is based on philisophical grounds, however, I'd like hear about that.

I'll answer this with a quote from Thomas Paine:
"The Creation speaketh a universal language, independently of human speech or human language, multiplied and various as they may be. It is an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God."

 

[Section8]

Whitemithrandir: I find it extremely funny that you, a Mormon, are taking ME to task for my understanding of the spread of Christianity in history. I find it very funny, because your entire faith is based on a history for which there is not one shred of evidence: that there were two great and prosperous races in North America that annihilated themselves through war. Only problem. No one has found even a single piece of archealogical evidence that these races ever existed. So I find it very funny that a Mormon, whose very identity is based on pseudo-history, is lecturing me on history.

Who gives a fuck what a religion is based on? If you do, you're missing the point. It's completely immaterial whether or not the bible contains any truths, or if the sketchy historical basis of the Book of Mormon actually happened or not. The point of the stories contained in religious doctrines, whether fact or fiction, is to present and address moral themes.

That's why it's more positive to ask "What does the Bible teach us?" than "What does the Bible say?"

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

The KKK is a joke. It was shut down by the guy who founded it, and after it got started up again years later it got shut down because it was defrauding its members. The group that now owns the name "Knights of the KKK" does not permit its members to use racial epithets. That makes them more sensitive than B.E.T. There's a good reason the government doesn't bother much with them anymore. When they did, government agents were practically the only ones that could be relied on to pay dues. Heck, a hardcore racist who joins the KKK is less likely to commit a hate-crime than if he'd stayed a loner. What it is now is basically a support group for losers who have no other basis for their own self-worth.

You know, I've noticed that native Iraqis don't carry out attacks on western countries. Most of those that do are well off Saudis and Egyptians, although England recently had problems with South Asians and North Africans. And despite how crappy things are in central africa, you never hear of terrorists from there. Latin Americans tend to keep shit in their own backyards as well (Carlos the Jackal is an exception, but he was basically working on behalf of Middle Easterners). We didn't have to deal with oriental terrorism during the Korean war or Vietnam.

Some of their beliefs seem odd to me, but I think Mormons are great. Every Mormon I have ever met has been extremely nice and smart as well. Considering the high birth rate they've got, Europe needs to start importing them. They'd be a heck of a lot less likely to riot in Paris.

 

[Proweler]

Religion is the opium for the masses.

What do the masses want?

To feel secure.

How does one achieve this?

By difficult philosophy.

What can you sell to the masses?

A dumbed down versions of a good concept.

Now please visit a clinic.

 

[ExMonk]

Whitemithrandir: I find it extremely funny that you, a Mormon, are taking ME to task for my understanding of the spread of Christianity in history. I find it very funny, because your entire faith is based on a history for which there is not one shred of evidence: that there were two great and prosperous races in North America that annihilated themselves through war. Only problem. No one has found even a single piece of archealogical evidence that these races ever existed. So I find it very funny that a Mormon, whose very identity is based on pseudo-history, is lecturing me on history.

Who gives a fuck what a religion is based on? If you do, you're missing the point. It's completely immaterial whether or not the bible contains any truths, or if the sketchy historical basis of the Book of Mormon actually happened or not. The point of the stories contained in religious doctrines, whether fact or fiction, is to present and address moral themes.

That's why it's more positive to ask "What does the Bible teach us?" than "What does the Bible say?"

Ohhhhhhh. Thanks so much for clearing that up for me.

Actually what you say works very nicely for some religions. For example, Buddhism doesn't need to be historically validated. Neither does Hinduism. Or Taoism. However, when it comes to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, what you say doesn't hold; this is also true for Mormonism. These religions are based on real events that transpired in history. The whole point of Christianity is the incarnation, birth, life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Any morality you find in the Bible is secondary to this great theme. Similary, if the angel Gabriel didn't actually reveal the will of Allah to Mohammed, then Islam, would lose all validity. So also, Mormonism stands or falls on whether these races existed or not, whether the angel Moroni, or God the Father and Jesus actually appeared to Joseph Smith or not, etc.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Mormons all believe that their scriptures are Divine Revelation, not merely stories for moral edification!

 

[ExMonk]

Some of their beliefs seem odd to me, but I think Mormons are great. Every Mormon I have ever met has been extremely nice and smart as well. Considering the high birth rate they've got, Europe needs to start importing them. They'd be a heck of a lot less likely to riot in Paris.

Mormons are indeed some of the nicest people you'll meet. Their devotion to family and traditional morals are to be lauded. They also believe in absolute truth and morals, rather than being relativists. Unfortunately for them, however, the historicity of their faith cannot bear up under scrutiny.

 

[Proweler]

Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Mormons all believe that their scriptures are Divine Revelation, not merely stories for moral edification!

Gross overstatement.

 

[ExMonk]

Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Mormons all believe that their scriptures are Divine Revelation, not merely stories for moral edification!

Gross overstatement.

How so?

Enlighten me, thou despiser of religion.

 

[Proweler]

Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Mormons all believe that their scriptures are Divine Revelation, not merely stories for moral edification!

Gross overstatement.

How so?

Enlighten me, thou despiser of religion.

Been to church long enough to know that allot of pepole don't believe in divine revelation. In fact the whole deal of going to church was about interpreting those books and learn from them.

There is a line along the lines that goes: "The disciples were being called Christians". Now a disciple is a person who try's to imitate his master and tries to learn from him. If anything Jesus was an enlightened philosopher in a backwards culture.

Philosophy is something you can freely debate and think about and thus a much better tool to find out if you are doing the right thing then hoping you were born in the right religion.

 

[pantheon]

All religions are attempts to understand the universe from within the illusion of separation - that we are separate from the world.

Think of yourself when dreaming - in a nightmare you create everything of yourself, but also everything outside of yourself - in effect you create a separation between yourself and what scares you and then you believe your own illusion. This is the concept surrounding the illusion of separation when in truth we are all one.

It is impossible to grasp the concept of oneness from within the illusion so religious doctrine and dogma goes round and round and ...

 

[Proweler]

I think that covers it neatly.

 

[Section8]

Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Mormons all believe that their scriptures are Divine Revelation, not merely stories for moral edification!

Yes they do, but I'm saying they shouldn't. The idea that a belief is the literal word of some divine power tends to fuel petty conflicts based on the trivialities that come along with the positive tenets. It also prevents the dogma from adapting appropriately as society drastically changes.

I mean, are we that fucked up that we'll only believe "thou shalt not kill" is a good idea if it was written in stone by the almighty? I don't refrain from killing my fellow man because I'm afraid of a torturous afterlife or divine retribution, I refrain because I can see why it's a good idea not to do so.

I don't believe that proving/disproving the existence or historical accuracy of scriptures should have any weight, because we as a society should be more philosophical in our faith. For those who desperately need spoon fed guidance, we have clergy to help them interpret and muse upon teachings.

 

[ExMonk]

All religions are attempts to understand the universe from within the illusion of separation - that we are separate from the world.

Think of yourself when dreaming - in a nightmare you create everything of yourself, but also everything outside of yourself - in effect you create a separation between yourself and what scares you and then you believe your own illusion. This is the concept surrounding the illusion of separation when in truth we are all one.

It is impossible to grasp the concept of oneness from within the illusion so religious doctrine and dogma goes round and round and ...

Oh, great ascended master pantheon, enlighten my poor religiously shackled mind so that I am set free from the illusion of separation. Wait. wait. Yes. yes. Now I see. I am one with the world, with you, and rpgcodex, and Barbara Streisand, and Oprah. My individuality fades away before me like the illusion that it is. There are no differences. No differences. No differences. We are all one. all one. all one. I am now an ascended and enlightened being of pure light and mind like pantheon. I no longer have need of my body. I am set free. My soul is soaring, in tune with the pulse of the universe and is pure energy. I love you. I love everyone. I especially love vegetables.

 

[pantheon]

Keep up your love of vegetables ExMonk- and use sunscreen...
Your God will be pleased with you and you'll eventually get to heaven - won't that be great!!!!

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Nazis, Christians, Jews, Mormons, Muslims, and the Ur-Quan...

Wow. Mage Knight Apocalypse sounds intriguing.

 

[Chefe]

INFIDEL!!!! :evil: