Making a game

[Vault Dweller]

Long story short, I've decided to make a game...

*waits for the applause to die down

...I've thought about for a long time (beats the crap out of constantly bitching about someone else's games), and since it doesn't look like I'll be playing a decent RPG any time soon, I will either make my own or kill a lot of time. I'm in the process of licensing an engine right now as I'm too lazy to make one myself, so I'm kinda serious about it. The reason that I've decided to talk to you, guys, about it (and ultimately expose myself to all kinda jokes) is that since you are the target audience, I'd like to run some ideas by you.

If you care here are some threads with my thoughts on different things that will be reflected in the game unless you'd strongly disagree.

char system, alignment and quests, magic

So, comments and anything helpful are naturally welcome. At the moment I'd like to ask you about quests. I don't want to do any fedex stuff at that point, and I don't want to do any of "you arrive into a town and people can't wait to ask a total stranger to help them with their personal stuff". I think that a mistrust level should be high initially, but i don't want to overdo it. Every side quests should affect players in some way and be more complex then failed/completed. Here is one example from the first town:

You arrive into a city. In a tavern a well dressed noble approaches you and ask to do him a favour since you look very capable of what he has in mind. Turns out that a wild beast is ravaging his yard causing him all kinda distress while the guards are too busy dealing with actual criminals. Should you kill the beast, the noble would make several introductions to his friends recommending your services.

Your options are:

1. March in and kill the beast which turns out to be a guard animal, protecting the house. The noise you made draws everybody out of the house including the owner who doesn't look like the guy you'd met earlier and creates an opportunity for thieves to rob the house.
You get a reputation of a fool, and penalties with theives, nobility, and guards and have to restore the damage to the house owner (opens up a unique risky quest that nobody wants to do but you are in no position to refuse)

2. You are smart enough to get suspicious, and go talk to the actual house owner who confirms your suspicions. The thieves get ambushed and killed.
You get a bonus with nobility for protecting their interests, the thieves naturally hate you and would kill you given a chance, the guards dislike you for taking law in your own hands. It opens up quests with nobles who wants things done.

3. Like number 2 but you go to guards who ambush the thieves.
You get a bonus with guards which opens up some quests with them since you respect the law, thieves dislike you, nobles are grateful but not as much as in no 2.

4. You are smart enough to figure out the scam, and you want in, but not as a patsy. You blackmail the thief pretending to be the noble to let you in, then go and find another dumb looking adventurer to kill the terrible beast ravaging your yard while you and you new buddies clean up the house.
You get a reputation of a smart and fast fella with the thieves which opens up some shady quests requiring brains, unless you double-cross them and report to guards after the robbery, the guards are suspicious of you, the nobles are neutral (unless you offer them to track down those responsible, etc).

5. You can do nothing of course, which gets you nothing

Now, tell me whether it's good enough, what did I miss, and what could be improved, added, etc.

 

[Human Shield]

Yeah I want to make a game too, but then I realize all the work needed: all the art and writing would probably be terrible, confident I could code a nice rule set and mechanics thou (working on a very cool original magic system).

I would like to hear about the setting you plan for the game.

For quests. Don't focus on quests that deal with monsters, rare and interesting monsters are infinitely better then pest control. Have quests that deal with people. I wouldn't even focus on creating standard "quests", that leads to low replay. Create difficulties and problems that come about, and have many ways to approach, analyze, and use this problems (solve them for everyone, help certain people, help yourself, make worst, etc...). A few of those would be much cooler then 100 linear quests (maybe less work if you approach it right).

You had a good example but I focus on throwing random elements in on else the second time around the player will know the best way to solve the problem. Problems shouldn't always have a best way. If you trust the guy and kill the animal and find he is lying, your wisdom about the world should increase, hunting down the thieves and killing them will gain a reputation as a someone to be careful around.

I would also try to put time limits on problems. If you don't enter the town for months, they will hire someone random that would get different outcomes, which mite open the possibility to hunt down the thieves for the nobles. Which leads to even more possibilities.

Going through the world as your character should be dynamic and a learning experience.

Things I would like to see:

More ways to end a fight besides kill everyone (give chance to surrender, pleas for mercy, offer money, threat with fraction standing). I see why that peasant decides to fight to the death over opening his closet (that has a script), threats or money to keep it quiet should be options.

Ability to hire NPCs. Why can't the player give out quests if he has money? Offer reward for item you want and putting reward value and variables in equation returns a time then someone would show up with it (if possible).

 

[Anonymous]

omg wil it us d20


forgotan relms?

romances plz

 

[Volourn]

Let's hope for all three so everyone here can bash VD. :twisted:

Setiously, VD, your quest is a good idea. And, you stole it from me! :wink:

 

[Vault Dweller]

confident I could code a nice rule set and mechanics thou (working on a very cool original magic system).

I'll make sure to talk to you about my rule set then. You ideas about high/low int/wis/char were very interesting.

I would like to hear about the setting you plan for the game.

Nothing fancy, generic (at this point), low magic fantasy.

For quests. Don't focus on quests that deal with monsters, rare and interesting monsters are infinitely better then pest control.

No pest control quests, that's for sure

A few of those would be much cooler then 100 linear quests

My approach: less is more. I have fewer quests then most rpgs but they are more complex and evolve constantly into something else.

You had a good example but I focus on throwing random elements in on else the second time around the player will know the best way to solve the problem. Problems shouldn't always have a best way.

There would no "best way". In my example, all the outcomes lead to something else. Even if you take the least cool no. 1, it opens up a quest that you wouldn't get otherwise, and sometimes having a reputation of a "fool" (more on reputation later) is very beneficial as many things are easier if people think that you are stupid :wink:

If you trust the guy and kill the animal and find he is lying, your wisdom about the world should increase, hunting down the thieves and killing them will gain a reputation as a someone to be careful around.

At this point I don't want to increase attributes but I'm planning on having very useful streetsmart skill that would increase.

I would also try to put time limits on problems. If you don't enter the town for months, they will hire someone random that would get different outcomes, which mite open the possibility to hunt down the thieves for the nobles. Which leads to even more possibilities.

That's what I want to do too assuming I can handle the engine to that degree.

Going through the world as your character should be dynamic and a learning experience.

Definitely

More ways to end a fight besides kill everyone (give chance to surrender, pleas for mercy, offer money, threat with fraction standing). I see why that peasant decides to fight to the death over opening his closet (that has a script), threats or money to keep it quiet should be options.

Yep, I like how it was done in ToEE.

Ability to hire NPCs. Why can't the player give out quests if he has money? Offer reward for item you want and putting reward value and variables in equation returns a time then someone would show up with it (if possible).

Good point.

 

[Vault Dweller]

omg wil it us d20, forgotan relms?, romances plz

no I cant do taht beacus of teh rigts, hahaha, I will maek my own systam called d19 very clevar hahaha set in lost relmz and it will haev romances but with girlz bacuse I dont liek faggots!!11!!!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Setiously, VD, your quest is a good idea. And, you stole it from me! :wink:

Don't tell me we think alike! :shock:

 

[Dgaider]

If you're looking for the player to be initially mistrusted and not have quests available wherever he turns (a very legitimate way to go, for sure) then my suggestion would be to stick initially with tasks that would be very reasonable to give to a stranger: a dangerous task that nobody wants to risk people they care about on or something where the player's relative anonymous quality or ignorance is a bonus.

Focusing on the latter:

1) You are needed to perform a task that can't be accomplished by the person hiring you or anyone close to them because they would be recognized (and that would be bad). But it also can't be of vital importance as they've no reason to trust you (yet). Delivering messages or (if that's too fedex-y) aiding in a plan to fool your employer's enemy would fall into this category.

2) You are hired because you are assumed to be ignorant of the local situation. Such as the local tyrannical lord hiring you to collect taxes from a village ready to revolt. Or getting hired to guard a simple shipment of goods or caravan while not telling you about the competing merchant company or bandit lord which everyone knows about but you since you're not local.

Succeeding at these things might be a good "in" to a local faction, which would then trust you with more important tasks later. Personally I was very fond of the way this sort of set-up was used in Fallout 2 in New Reno with the four crime family "factions" (or was it three?). Being able to support one side or play multiple sides against the other is quite fun.

Anyhow, that's just a thought and I'm sure it's not a new one. Good luck on your project.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

VD, don<t fogett teh 3D an partikul effkz!

kthnx!

 

[Vault Dweller]

If you're looking for the player to be initially mistrusted and not have quests available wherever he turns (a very legitimate way to go, for sure) then my suggestion would be to stick initially with tasks that would be very reasonable to give to a stranger

That's what I thought too, start slow and build up reputation and connections as you go.

1) You are needed to perform a task that can't be accomplished by the person hiring you or anyone close to them because they would be recognized (and that would be bad). But it also can't be of vital importance as they've no reason to trust you (yet). Delivering messages or (if that's too fedex-y) aiding in a plan to fool your employer's enemy would fall into this category.

Yeah, messages are too fedexy for me, unless a message immediately leads to something else. It just doesn't make sense that anyone would ask a total stranger, that may be dressed nicely, to deliver even an insignificant letter, there are messengers and local boys for that. I think that the only starting quests could be either attempts to scam or quests that like you said no local would ever accept which would involve either something dangerous or crossing somebody unpleasant. Thanks for the thought anyway.

2) You are hired because you are assumed to be ignorant of the local situation. Such as the local tyrannical lord hiring you to collect taxes from a village ready to revolt. Or getting hired to guard a simple shipment of goods or caravan while not telling you about the competing merchant company or bandit lord which everyone knows about but you since you're not local.

Actually one of the quests involve acquiring and delivering a shipment of ore for the local blacksmith. The ore distribution is being controlled by one of the regional merchant houses who control the supply and the prices. If you manage to acquire the ore, the troubles begin, first threats, then force, then an offer to sell at a very generous price as a reward for going that far. If you still refuse, by the time you reach the town you learn that a new tariff has been introduced that makes your ore as expensive as that of the merchant house. If you managed to establish relationship with the thiefs, you can smuggle the ore, otherwise you learn a valuable lesson about life.

Good luck on your project.

Thanks

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, don<t fogett teh 3D an partikul effkz!

You'd have to use your imagination for that. The engine that I'm getting doesn't handle particle effects very well

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Wil ti haev jiglee boobz?

I liek boobz.

 

[Spazmo]

Nothing fancy, generic (at this point), low magic fantasy.

Booo.

Other stuff about the game.

Yaaaay.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

*waits for the applause to die down

What applause?


For a simulation of a level of suspicion, you can make it so youy have a given number of quests, which will have different reactions and rewards according to your integration level in the town, and general fondness of the NPCs. If you decide to do, say, a quest where the goal is to escort someone into a given place, you may find that the employer is harsh, will bully you in dialogue and will pay you a meager sum if you've just recently arrived; but if you do other quests before, and raise the level of disposition of NPCs in the town, you may find that that NPC will be nicer, more educated, and will give a more generous amount of money as a reward.

As for the type of quests. I know you dislike Fed-Ex type quests, and while i also do, i believe its all in how its handled. It can even depend on what you "fetch". You may have to go find an object, but if the quest in the long run involves you needing to use stealth, or diplomacy, it might not be so generic.

You could be given a quest to collect a jewel from an outlaw in the town sallon. He stole it from your employer and is going to gamble or sell it away, and you're told to go get it before noon, because the scoundrel is going to leave town when he finishes selling/gambling it. You then have to reach the sallon and find the guy before the given time frame (you can make it so it's available for some days, on the other hand). When you confront him, depending on your diplomacy levels he can tell you that he stole it and plans on selling it because your employer failed to pay the amount they had agreed on for a job he did. Its then up to you to determine how you can solve this:

1. By force (this always needs to be an option). You might include the NPC and some hired help. Don't make the item readilly available on his corpse; make it so there's a key to his room in the town hotel (which can then lead to some other kind of circumstances and/or quests)

2. Decide to break the quest altogether by telling your employer you don't trust him because you've learned thr truth, and will not engage in shady dealings. At this time the employer may hire the price of the reward (add to this the above example i gave of escalating NPC reactions). You can then decide to do it for a higher price, or decide to not do it at all. As a result of rejecting it, you may find some minor hostility from other townsfolk if the employer was a wealthy man with connections.

3. Decide to let the "scoundrel" try to sell the jewel, and let it be; or let him sell it and then try to steal the money from him; or even allow to steal the money from him, and be able to track down the man who bought it and try to get it from him (another set of circumstances).

4. Be able to tell the "scoundrel" that you're sorry for the mistake, and that as an apology you'd like to pay him a drink. If you have some sleeping medicine, mix it with his drink and give it to him. This can lower his perception or knock him out cold. Regardless you can take advantage of it to get the key from him.

5. Try to gamble for the jewel yourself (you might even gain a "Perk"/reputation title from this event).

6. Try to convince him to give you the jewel. Wheter by direct persuasion, or by deceit, like trying to pose as a newcomer (well, you are) that is looking to strike it rich and is out looking for jobs. Ask him if he needs anything, and you might convince him to give you the key to his room at the hotel to go get the item. O'course, don't make this too easy: have the "scoundrel" tell the PC that there is a guard at the door. When you arrive the guard might forcefully join you until you get the jewel and deliver it to the NPC. You can give the option to kill the guard, but be sure that convincing the "scoundrel" that the guard is not with you for legitimate reasons needs some good levels of diplomacy.

7. The "scoundrel" might even have his own agenda, and might suggest you to buy it from him. He might tell you that if he can't sell the jewel than he won't be able to leave town with the town's most beautiful dancer, who works in the saloon, something he had planned for (with the money he was supposed to be given). [You migth take this as a hint for extra NPC interaction]


It'd be interesting to have a finely crafted web, so to speak, of possible interactions, but this is very time-consuming.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nothing fancy, generic (at this point), low magic fantasy.

Booo.

I have two good (at least I think so) ideas: one is fantasy, one is sci-fi (frontier space, planets' exploration, etc). I started with the fantasy one as it's easier to make, then if I'm still in game development busines , I will do the sci-fi one, just for you, Spazmo

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Yeah, messages are too fedexy for me, unless a message immediately leads to something else. It just doesn't make sense that anyone would ask a total stranger, that may be dressed nicely, to deliver even an insignificant letter, there are messengers and local boys for that. I think that the only starting quests could be either attempts to scam or quests that like you said no local would ever accept which would involve either something dangerous or crossing somebody unpleasant. Thanks for the thought anyway.

I'm reminded of a Torment quest where a guy in the street asked you to find a man and give him a message, but that ended up in the guy being drunk and not being able to do it, so you had the chance of go telling a guy in the marketplace his employee was drunk and that you could do the job on his behalf. It led to that mini-quest rather quickly.

 

[Vault Dweller]

... but if you do other quests before, and raise the level of disposition of NPCs in the town, you may find that that NPC will be nicer, more educated, and will give a more generous amount of money as a reward.

I would have class-based reputation system: merchants, nobility, thieves, guards, scholars, etc. Each class would have their own opinion about you based on your actions and class-based reputation perks. Thieves may think that you are to stupid to deal with you or that you talk to much, while nobles may think that you are a perfect gentleman. And nobody would ever give you more money just because you're a nice guy.

As for the type of quests. I know you dislike Fed-Ex type quests, and while i also do, i believe its all in how its handled. It can even depend on what you "fetch". You may have to go find an object, but if the quest in the long run involves you needing to use stealth, or diplomacy, it might not be so generic.

Like I said if the fetch part is the start of something else, then yes, take Hommlet for example, there are many quests that require diplomacy but you either have it or you don't, if you don't need to make decisions at every step of the way and if the decisions are not supported by consequences, then it's boring, plain and simple.

I gotta run now, I'll comment on your quest later.

 

[Megatron]

What have you done before? I'm not much of a codex regular matey.

It could be nice for a postal service to be in the game. Instead of running around everywhere just put stuff in mail-boxes.

A postman job could be intresting too. You get paid a lump sum of money to deliver packages and letters. You can choose to read these letters for further quests (blackmail or locations) or keep packages for yourself in case they have phat lewt in them. Might not be that entertaining though.

I'd also like a time limit on the game, or at least make the game tougher the longer you play. If some big evil is being evil why isn't reflecting on anything (( see: Ghostbusters 2
If you do end up with a boss I think a nice twist would be something other than killing it through combat would be intresting. Every rpg that has a boss at the end is usually defeated through melee combat. Could be intresting if dialouge was the deciding factor instead of muscles. A Wizard of Oz type boss could be intresting. I'd also suggest alternative endings beside having the same location and boss with a few solutions. Fallout was good but perhaps playing out the bit where you become a mutant would have been good as an ending instead of a movie?

Random bullshit: If you die perhaps being able to talk your way out of it with death could be intresting as a one-time thing. Mebbe playing chess? kekelberries.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Thieves may think that you are to stupid to deal with you or that you talk to much, while nobles may think that you are a perfect gentleman.

Cool.

And nobody would ever give you more money just because you're a nice guy.

It doesn't necessarily have to be more money, but there should be an increase of rewards depending on people's appreciation of you. The more well known you are the more favourably will people react to you, the more they'll want to befriend you. To fall on your good side, people might give small increases in rewards: some more gold, a small item, a piece of info, etc. They can even just give more money out of kindness, or after you've proven to be a reliable sort.

 

[Greenskin13]

omg wil it us d20, forgotan relms?, romances plz

no I cant do taht beacus of teh rigts, hahaha, I will maek my own systam called d19 very clevar hahaha set in lost relmz and it will haev romances but with girlz bacuse I dont liek faggots!!11!!!

maek teh gurlyz h4awt plzzzzz.

Good luck, VD. I'd love to help, but all I can offer is near-to-nothing VBasic codes and meaningless advice.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What have you done before? I'm not much of a codex regular matey.

I dunno. Posted a lot of bullshit at the codex? But I guess you are asking me if I have ever participated in a game related activity. Well, the answer is nope, but I've done many software development projects (I run my own company now), so at least I have some idea. Other then that, I really really want to make this game and that gotta count for something Besides, a fella gotta start somewhere, and I have what no other developer ever had: the combined powah of da Codex!!!!!! :D

Every rpg that has a boss at the end is usually defeated through melee combat. Could be intresting if dialouge was the deciding factor instead of muscles.

You would not be able to defeat the endboss in melee. It's not that kinda game.

Random bullshit: If you die perhaps being able to talk your way out of it with death could be intresting as a one-time thing. Mebbe playing chess? kekelberries.

Wow, this is just awesome! I had some other ideas on how to deal with death (I hate reloads), but actually dealing with Death would be great.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Besides, a fella gotta start somewhere, and I have what no other developer ever had: the combined powah of da Codex!!!!!! :D

The power of RPG Codex compels you!

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

That chess idea is cute. Nice going there

 

[Human Shield]

I think economy is important to work on. Evil is never very tempting in games because the player always has tons of money and rarely has to use any (you can get through on pure loot usually). Supplies need to be important and money should have value. If my adventurer has a ton of money I would want him to say "shrew dungeons, I'm buying a beach house".

 

[Vault Dweller]

You could be given a quest to collect a jewel from an outlaw....

Although you provided plenty of ways to get the jewel back it's still only a fetch it quests where you predetermined skills and character decide how you would acquire the jewel. What I think would be a good tweak is to be asked to look into the theft of a temple jewel, then you have a choice to get it back from the thief assuming you find him or to see who ordered the theft and why, uncovering something deeper then a theft of a jewel.

It doesn't necessarily have to be more money, but there should be an increase of rewards depending on people's appreciation of you

It's never happened to me for some reasons.

Good luck, VD. I'd love to help, but all I can offer is near-to-nothing VBasic codes and meaningless advice

Thanks for the luck, no advice is meaningless :wink: