Mass Effect Legendary Edition remaster trilogy

[Lacrymas]

This is your fault for actually sitting down and playing the NWN OC.

I played it as a kid, I think NWN1 OC was the first RPG I ever played, so I couldn't forget the OC even if I wanted to.

 

[Nano]

I played it as a kid, I think NWN1 OC was the first RPG I ever played, so I couldn't forget the OC even if I wanted to.

Sorry about your childhood.

 

[Lacrymas]

Bioware has used the "dragon invades the realm" story structure so many times that it's basically a genre at this point. Singling out NWN is bizarre.

I'm singling it out because NWN's antagonists are space aliens like the Reapers. The Bioware formula is the structure that you've done 3 times before ME came out - NWN OC (and you do this at least 3 times within the OC itself), KotoR1, and Jade Empire.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

I'm singling it out because NWN's antagonists are space aliens like the Reapers. The Bioware formula is the structure that you've done 3 times before ME came out - NWN OC (and you do this at least 3 times within the OC itself), KotoR1, and Jade Empire.

You're talking about the macguffin' scavenger hunt to stop an overwhelming invading force that seemingly comes from nowhere, correct? I never sunk much time into the NWN OC past the tutorial with "muh Waterdhavian creatures!", nor Mass Effect because it was spoiled for me and sounded like a rehashed KotOR. Jade Empire I did play through but I don't remember hunting for anything in that one for some reason. I remember having visions of the water dragon at certain points in the plot and the main villain twist, but that's about it. Just seemed more of a political coup, am I just forgetting?

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm singling it out because NWN's antagonists are space aliens like the Reapers. The Bioware formula is the structure that you've done 3 times before ME came out - NWN OC (and you do this at least 3 times within the OC itself), KotoR1, and Jade Empire.

You're talking about the macguffin' scavenger hunt to stop an overwhelming invading force that seemingly comes from nowhere, correct? I never sunk much time into the NWN OC past the tutorial with "muh Waterdhavian creatures!", nor Mass Effect because it was spoiled for me and sounded like a rehashed KotOR. Jade Empire I did play through but I don't remember hunting for anything in that one for some reason. I remember having visions of the water dragon at certain points in the plot and the main villain twist, but that's about it. Just seemed more of a political coup, am I just forgetting?

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

I've seen this chart before and also a different one regarding character similarities from each. Some of the similarities in this are reaching. All their RPGs have you traveling and gaining party members? You don't say. Some are just Cheong trying to pound a round peg through a square hole. The "Alone with two companions" and "Ancient Ruins" categories in particular. Other times, I have no idea why he considers certain scenarios to be different such as the "devastating battle" category between Mass Effect and KotOR.

Anyway, I was more interested in the "why" behind the travel in Jade Empire. It's been too long but it don't remember it being anything more than wandering (initially) similar to Baldur's Gate, rather than a mission targeting something specifically needed. The villain motivation was the standard take over the world though. Incidentally, Jade Empire was the point where the novelty wore off for me. Recycling dialogue responses verbatim from KotOR didn't help matters.

 

[Nutria]

It's like bitching about Perry Mason or Columbo or Castle because he catches the bad guy at the end. It's not a cliché, it's the formula of the show and the audience goes into it knowing what they want and what they're going to get. KOTOR deserves credit because it follows this formula 100% but still managed to work in a plot twist.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's like bitching about Perry Mason or Columbo or Castle because he catches the bad guy at the end. It's not a cliché, it's the formula of the show and the audience goes into it knowing what they want and what they're going to get. KOTOR deserves credit because it follows this formula 100% but still managed to work in a plot twist.

All of them feature a plot twist. NWN - Aribeth goes Blackguard. DA:O - you will die and Morrigan is with you only to become pregnant with old god baby. KotOR - Revan, obviously. Baldur's Gate - you are a god-child. I don't remember anything about Jade Empire, but I vaguely remember someone "good" turning out to be the antagonist in the end. Mass Effect - the Citadel is a mass relay.

 

[gulagdandy]

You know which Bioware game doesn't follow this formula? Dragon Age 2. Bioware's magnum opus in storytelling (Yes, I'm aware it has many, many gameplay issues.)

 

[M. AQVILA]

The bastards actually increased the price of the original 3 games. You actually pay more if you buy them separately. Disgusting.

That actually speaks volumes about their cash grab.

 

[Fedora Master]

It's like bitching about Perry Mason or Columbo or Castle because he catches the bad guy at the end. It's not a cliché, it's the formula of the show and the audience goes into it knowing what they want and what they're going to get. KOTOR deserves credit because it follows this formula 100% but still managed to work in a plot twist.

All of them feature a plot twist. NWN - Aribeth goes Blackguard. DA:O - you will die and Morrigan is with you only to become pregnant with old god baby. KotOR - Revan, obviously. Baldur's Gate - you are a god-child. I don't remember anything about Jade Empire, but I vaguely remember someone "good" turning out to be the antagonist in the end. Mass Effect - the Citadel is a mass relay.

Biggest twist in ME is the fact that Saren was right all along.

 

[Nano]

You know which Bioware game doesn't follow this formula? Dragon Age 2. Bioware's magnum opus in storytelling (Yes, I'm aware it has many, many gameplay issues.)

DA2 has its own set of narrative issues. Act 3 especially is an absolute trainwreck.

 

[Zibniyat]

that first Mass Effect game had the burden of introducing an entirely new and expansive universe

It was extremely derivative, banal and predictable. Ripping off KOTOR (II) mostly. Bioware was already creatively bankrupt, but were apt at plagiarism, that I can admit.

 

[Atlantico]

It was extremely derivative, banal and predictable. Ripping off KOTOR (II) mostly. Bioware was already creatively bankrupt, but were apt at plagiarism, that I can admit.

He wrote "new", not "original".

They're not synonyms.

The Mass Effect universe is, as you say, extremely derivative.

It even had space-mohammedans, the Geth who were created by the space-jews, the Quarians.

 

[J1M]

Actually, I'd love to hear why Mass Effect is a KOTOR ripoff. Colorful infographics encouraged!

 

[Zibniyat]

Actually, I'd love to hear why Mass Effect is a KOTOR ripoff. Colorful infographics encouraged.

First, I played ME years ago, and had played KOTOR II a short time before it, so I must say that the number of similarities was a bit too much. Everything felt derivative, already seen and quite boring frankly.

Even though not literally so and with a lot of differences, "element zero" still reminded me a bit too much of "the Force", even more so since "Biotics" which relied on that "element" were very similar to "Force Powers" in both what kinds there were, how they worked and even how they looked (Throw is literally Force Push, it looks and works as one). The ship Normandy is equivalent to Ebon Hawk, the Citadel is the central location of the plot same as Citadel Station was for KOTOR II (though for different reasons and on a smaller scale, I admit), the Elcor with their sloth-kind of nature reminded me of Ithorians of KOTOR II. It may seem little now, but like I've said it has been years since I played it, and many things I have forgotten. However, the constant feeling of "oh I've seen this already" was annoying and disappointing.

 

[Caim]

Actually, I'd love to hear why Mass Effect is a KOTOR ripoff. Colorful infographics encouraged.

First, I played ME years ago, and had played KOTOR II a short time before it, so I must say that the number of similarities was a bit too much. Everything felt derivative, already seen and quite boring frankly.

Even though not literally so and with a lot of differences, "element zero" still reminded me a bit too much of "the Force", even more so since "Biotics" which relied on that "element" were very similar to "Force Powers" in both what kinds there were, how they worked and even how they looked (Throw is literally Force Push, it looks and works as one). The ship Normandy is equivalent to Ebon Hawk, the Citadel is the central location of the plot same as Citadel Station was for KOTOR II (though for different reasons and on a smaller scale, I admit), the Elcor with their sloth-kind of nature reminded me of Ithorians of KOTOR II. It may seem little now, but like I've said it has been years since I played it, and many things I have forgotten. However, the constant feeling of "oh I've seen this already" was annoying and disappointing.

Don't forget the "introduction, do four things on four planets, then final boss time" structure. I've played The Sith Lords several times before I got to Mass Effect, and that was one of the first things I noticed in the structure.

 

[KVVRR]

but that first Mass Effect game had the burden of introducing an entirely new and expansive universe to the player. A setting that isn't grounded in something easy to explain like "it's new york, but everything is steam-powered".

It's actually a testament to the good job they did of laying out the universe that you look at it now as "explaining things everybody knows". Did they invent a new form of storytelling instead of relying on the techniques they developed on past projects? No, and it's probably for the best that they didn't try to innovate too much in this area. See: action mode in ME3.

This is something every new IP has to wrestle through, and the Mass Effect universe isn't nearly as complex as you're making it sound. I don't think it's bad but you can very easily boil down everything that you see at a quick glance, even the alien races: Salarians = ayy lmaos, Asari = Space Elves, Turian = Space military, Geth = skynet. Only the Quarians and Krogans have a somewhat unique backstory and even then you can easily boil it down too, Quarians = Space gypsys that made skynet, Geth = "sentient" robots, Krogan = rabid dogs neutered by salarians. The truly "alien" aliens are used as a joke, or as a plot device (Rachni, Keepers, Elcors, Volus, Hanars, etc).
The Relays are space lighthouses/slingshots that ships use to travel. The reapers are THE ANCIENT EVIL AWAKENS
Again this is not me saying that any of this is bad, mind you. There's nothing inherently wrong with simplicity or using tropes and the backstory for some of these races provide some of the best storylines for this series, but you can't really say that they did a "good job" just for being able to lay the fundation of the setting. That's literally the bare minimum you should do on a sci-fi story.

 

[Nano]

Asari actually = Delvians.

 

[KVVRR]

Asari actually = Delvians.

That's what I said, space elves.

 

[Dexter]

I don't get why people bring up that something is "derivative" or "lacks originality" or whatever as if that was inevitably a bad thing when it still succeeds at world-building, works at what it tries to do and can be fun/good for what it is.

You might as well bring up the "Hero's journey" that you will find again and again throughout literature or 3 Act story structure for Dramas. They've been and are being used for thousands/hundreds of years over and over because they are found to work well and if you deviate and try to "do your own thing" it ain't necessarily going to be a better product/story/narrative for it.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

If we're still talking about Bioware I think people are more just tired of the scavenger hunt many of their games started repeating ad-nauseum, ("four planets, four maps" segment). Ironically, I still prefer it to the "unite the troops" trope that they switched to in Dragon Age that every other modern game seems to abuse. More than anything though, it was the companion clones that started to bore me along with the blank-slate main characters with generic interrogative dialogue responses. I mean, fucking hell... can the PC voice a strong opinion on something for once instead of just asking a dumb clarifying question? And can it be more than ten words in simple English that sounds like it was written by a 6th grader?

I have no problem with the Hero's Journey trope, nor the twists that Bioware throws in. To the contrary, thank god they're there or there would be no unexpected turns at all.

 

[Ismaul]

If we're still talking about Bioware I think people are more just tired of the scavenger hunt many of their games started repeating ad-nauseum, ("four planets, four maps" segment). Ironically, I still prefer it to the "unite the troops" trope that they switched to in Dragon Age that every other modern game seems to abuse.

Oh no, as I recall, the "unite the troops/clans" was also in NWN. Might be wrong, it's been a while, and I quit at that point.

In any case it's the same template they're reusing: go to each 4 clans / races / planets / regions to unite the troops, or go to each 4 planets / regions to collect the pieces of the McGuffin, same shit different coat of paint.

This is porn-level storytelling, and then again porn sometimes uses its setups to better effect.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Oh no, as I recall, the "unite the troops/clans" was also in NWN. Might be wrong, it's been a while, and I quit at that point.

I'll take your word for it. The last time I played Neverwinter Nights was back in 2003 and I didn't get much further than just past the starting area, tooling around in the city. Dragon Age: Origins was just the first place I noticed it. I grade it lower mainly because there's a higher chance that the developers will try to usurp agency away from the players and cast someone from among those gathered factions as the "true hero" of the story.

 

[Lacrymas]

You might as well bring up the "Hero's journey" that you will find again and again throughout literature

Except the Hero's Journey is extremely made up by Campbell. You can use it to explain a lot of American pop culture that got churned out after his book came out (like Star Wars), but to say it's a universal structure that is "used for thousands and thousands of years" is extremely wrong.