Editorial Matt Barton on the state of today's CRPGs

[Clockwork Knight]

Impossible. The turds remain unlicked.

 

[Harold]

Impossible. The turds remain unlicked.

Well, seeing as how he and hiver are the only posters that I know of that have 'This member limits who may view their full profile' appear when you ckick on'em , that Rorsarch quote - hiver's personal hero judging from his last avatar, the general edginess and the 'YOU NERDS ARE DUMB AND NEVER SNIFFED A REAL PUSSY' attitude of a troo whiteknight, it kinda all adds up.

Not to mention the ... that slowly start creeping up in this so-called Dumah's post, that feels like a dead giveaway to me. hiver / Dumah , if you stop taking your pills the ... will start taking over your posts again.

 

[A user named cat]

Only one response is necessary.

 

[mondblut]

Why doesn't RPG Codex make its own Youtube channel? Bring older RPGs to a new generation, increase the site's web presence, talk about games or mechanics or ideas nobody else has talked about, raise the level of dialogue, attract new people to the site. A series that explores the history of RPGs in depth could be interesting if presented well.

Fuck new generation and fuck yootube. Videoblogging is for fags.

 

[octavius]

Only one response is necessary.

Looks gay. Is it Jaesun?

 

[Johannes]

Why doesn't RPG Codex make its own Youtube channel? Bring older RPGs to a new generation, increase the site's web presence, talk about games or mechanics or ideas nobody else has talked about, raise the level of dialogue, attract new people to the site. A series that explores the history of RPGs in depth could be interesting if presented well.

Fuck new generation and fuck yootube. Videoblogging is for fags.

Yeah, it's slow and annoying compared to written word. Especially if it features the face of the person talking, fuck that shit.

Though Grimoire funding videos are oddly amusing. Maybe because they feature so much text.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Yeah, it's slow and annoying compared to written word. Especially if it features the face of the person talking, fuck that shit.

Though Grimoire funding videos are oddly amusing. Maybe because they feature so much text.

Yeah, videos are fine for entertainment oriented pieces, but for actually conveying information and engaging with ideas, the written word is more effective by far.

Plus, there is nothing more annoying than a video narrator with an unpleasant voice or odd inflection. Its not for nothing actors and people who frequently speak in public will often put alot of work into elocution etc.

 

[Sceptic]

What possible similarity in game play is there between Xenon and POR? One is a real time top down action game where you shoot up space ships and ground installations. The other is a turn based game where you control a party of characters.

The same kind of similarity that you are so intent on finding between Doom and MM6. One's a one-person shooter where all that matters is how well you aim and how fast you shoot, the other is an RPG where you control a party of 4, where aiming is automatic and accuracy depends on your character skills instead, where you have a turn-based mode that doesn't exist in Doom to help you if the RT is too frantic when you're trying to cast spells instead... oh yeah those don't exist in Doom either.

You are confusing game mechanics with game play.

Because mechanics have no effect on gameplay

 

[Wyrmlord]

Going back to what Matt was saying:

The stylistic homologies I think we're stuck in now, at least regarding CRPGs and MMORPGs, is best shown by looking at Skyrim and Dragon Age II on the CRPG side and Tera and GW2 on the MMORPG. What's happened to CRPGs, at least with major releases, is an increased tendency to make them as much like the reigning genre of shooters as possible, going so far as to use the same engines. To someone like me, playing Skyrim is a lot more like playing Doom than a true CRPG experience such as Ultima VII. This shift towards shooter-ization began very early, of course, with games like Ultima Underworld (1993), Elder Scrolls: Arena (1994), and Might & Magic VI (1998). Now, of course, you can't find a CRPG that doesn't look like it's just a shooter with some grafted on "CRPG elements," and, what's worse, the console-ization of the shooter has homogenized the whole industry into one fast food joint after another. I greet the new Halo or Black Ops game with the same enthusiasm I would greet the Brand New San Diego Bacon Burger with Olives at McDonald's. Sure, it's a "sandwich revolution," yadda yadda, whatever. Yawn.

Here is the salient point. Shooter-izing RPGs, according to Matt, is homogenizing the genre until a RPG is no different from Black Ops. And shooter-izing, according to Matt, is just making a shooter with RPG elements grafted on it.

This does not even remotely describe Arena, Ultima Underworld, or Mandate of Heaven. Which he describes as shooterized RPGs.

Is MM6 really so homogenized into shooters that is indistinguishable from Unreal or Redneck Rampage? Is it really just a game designed as a shooter first, and then with RPG elements grafted on it? I believe even octavius and Morkar would disagree.

Anyway, whether or not RPGs take a step towards top-down, party-based, turn-based format or take a step away from them, it is not relevant to whether this genre is advanced or not. ToEE, while a good game, does not have Ultima Underworld's exploration, problem solving, and clue-hunting. So is this genre really taking a step for the worse by moving in Ultima Underworld's direction, or is it taking a step for the better? If we get more turn-based RPGs, but lose out on MM6 style open worlds, is that a step forward or a step backward for the genre?

Ultimately, this complaint about shooterizing is a complaint about one of the more trivial and less relevant concerns about RPGs.

 

[tuluse]

Actually, Matt says shooterization began with those games. Not that it happened completely.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Not to mention the ... that slowly start creeping up in this so-called Dumah's post, that feels like a dead giveaway to me.

And the strangely-formatted sentence/paragraph structure too. Funny. I hadn't noticed it until now.

Hell this Hiver sounds interesting

Ha.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Maybe hiver exists as a extra-corporeal consciousness which utilizes hosts as needed.

ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.................

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

I like to clown arround a bit

Oh ok haha lol I get it

 

[DraQ]

Oh and I wonder - if you were not slaughtering the enemies in Oblivion by "shooting and strafing" then how the hell were you doing it?

By backpedalling and shooting, duh.

What good is shooting and straffing if every goblin has >9000HP?

Please stop.

Why? Trolling leads to rage, but rage may lead to insight. It's like zenslapping people.

The same kind of similarity that you are so intent on finding between Doom and MM6. One's a one-person shooter where all that matters is how well you aim and how fast you shoot, the other is an RPG where you control a party of 4, where aiming is automatic and accuracy depends on your character skills instead

Actually aiming heavily automated in Doom as well.

where you have a turn-based mode that doesn't exist in Doom to help you if the RT is too frantic

Q2 then - felt almost turn based for me and definitely not too frantic.

when you're trying to cast spells instead... oh yeah those don't exist in Doom either.

Hexen?

 

[Metro]

 

[octavius]

Going back to what Matt was saying:

The stylistic homologies I think we're stuck in now, at least regarding CRPGs and MMORPGs, is best shown by looking at Skyrim and Dragon Age II on the CRPG side and Tera and GW2 on the MMORPG. What's happened to CRPGs, at least with major releases, is an increased tendency to make them as much like the reigning genre of shooters as possible, going so far as to use the same engines. To someone like me, playing Skyrim is a lot more like playing Doom than a true CRPG experience such as Ultima VII. This shift towards shooter-ization began very early, of course, with games like Ultima Underworld (1993), Elder Scrolls: Arena (1994), and Might & Magic VI (1998). Now, of course, you can't find a CRPG that doesn't look like it's just a shooter with some grafted on "CRPG elements," and, what's worse, the console-ization of the shooter has homogenized the whole industry into one fast food joint after another. I greet the new Halo or Black Ops game with the same enthusiasm I would greet the Brand New San Diego Bacon Burger with Olives at McDonald's. Sure, it's a "sandwich revolution," yadda yadda, whatever. Yawn.

Here is the salient point. Shooter-izing RPGs, according to Matt, is homogenizing the genre until a RPG is no different from Black Ops. And shooter-izing, according to Matt, is just making a shooter with RPG elements grafted on it.

This does not even remotely describe Arena, Ultima Underworld, or Mandate of Heaven. Which he describes as shooterized RPGs.

Is MM6 really so homogenized into shooters that is indistinguishable from Unreal or Redneck Rampage? Is it really just a game designed as a shooter first, and then with RPG elements grafted on it? I believe even octavius and Morkar would disagree.

Of course MM6 is not "indistinguishable from Unreal or Redneck Rampage?" All I'm saying is that the real time combat of MM6 as a gaming experience reminds me more of Doom than of Oblivion or other 1st person real time single player RPGs/action RPGs.
But the combat in MM6 is in some ways a natural progression from the very simple turn based combat of MM3-5, where you face a maximum of three enemies in melee. While playing MM3-5 recently I felt that the combat was so simplistic that it could as well have been real time. MM6 was actually an improvement IMO. Even the real time combat of MM6 was more fun than the unispired turn based combat of MM3-5, and again you faced the hordes of enemies you did in MM2.
But if it was a concious design decision to make that part of the game be more like Doom or other FPS'es I don't know. But real time combat was both a natural evolution from MM3-5 and a natural consequence of going full 3D.

Anyway, whether or not RPGs take a step towards top-down, party-based, turn-based format or take a step away from them, it is not relevant to whether this genre is advanced or not. ToEE, while a good game, does not have Ultima Underworld's exploration, problem solving, and clue-hunting. So is this genre really taking a step for the worse by moving in Ultima Underworld's direction, or is it taking a step for the better? If we get more turn-based RPGs, but lose out on MM6 style open worlds, is that a step forward or a step backward for the genre?

Ultimately, this complaint about shooterizing is a complaint about one of the more trivial and less relevant concerns about RPGs.

I agree about this.
To me the two main things I like about CRPGS are:
1. Turn based (including RTwP) tactical combat, which is why I love MM2, the Gold Box games, the Baldur's Gates and Icewind Dale. Age of Magic: Shadow Magic is also one of my top 5 favourite games for its excellent turn based, small scale (max 40 units on each side) combat.
2. Exploration and immersion, which is why I love 1st person 3D games like Dungeon Master, Chaos Strikes Back, Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Thief, and (despite their flaws, and played with the righ mods) the TES games.

Unfortunately today CRPGs with turn based tactical combat are extinct as AAA games, and we lack the diversity of the glory days.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Jesus christ.

 

[octavius]

Octavious did you like the Eye ofthe Beholder and Lands of Lore games?

I liked Eye of the Beholder when I was a kid. It had more varied graphics then DM and you could actually talk to people.
But the puzzles were much weaker.
I recently tried to replay it, but it didn't grab me. AD&D combat in real time just didn't feel right. The "two step dance" doesn't work as well as in DM or Black Crypt, and going face to face with the enemies my party took much more damage and had to rest more often than if it had been a Gold Box game against the same enemies.

Lands of Lore I've never played, since it was DOS only when I still had an Amiga. But it's on my play list. Will probably play it earlier next year.

 

[Jaesun]

Lands of Lore I've never played, since it was DOS only when I still had an Amiga. But it's on my play list. Will probably play it earlier next year.

Throw it as low as possible on your to play list. It is basically an Adventure game with combat.

That is basically it (cRPG wise). There are far better game you could play.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I think that, for better or worse, turn based combat will probabaly stay as a PC centric feature, since the consoles rarely have much to do with starategy based principles in their games.

Strange then that we often see turn-based releases on consoles only these days.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

LoL is a cool game if you don't approach it as a crpg. Definitely worth playing, top notch presentation and atmosphere.

 

[DraQ]

LoL is a cool game if you don't approach it as a crpg. Definitely worth playing, top notch presentation and atmosphere.

Agreed, but anyone bashing, say, Skyrim on basis of being shit RPG and at the same time loving LoL, is a damn hypocrite who should off themselves by stabbing themselves in the face with broken glass bottleneck.

LoL is as simplistic and dumbed down as it can possibly get.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

LoL is good for what it is, Skyrim is not.

 

[Metro]

and having Patrick Stewart is always a plus in my book

 

[Harold]

^ you make it to easy, hiver. Your latest avatar is the best tho'