Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Interview MCA Interviewed at Winterwind (Part 1 of 2)

Azael

Magister
Joined
Dec 6, 2002
Messages
4,405
Location
Multikult Central South
Wasteland 2
J.E. Sawyer said:
In fact, that is more important than what many Star Wars fanatics complain about. See, the thing is, guns are real. We can point to guns in our world, draw parallels, and make arguments back and forth on that subject with a fair amount of relevance to how they are portrayed in the game. Lightsabres, ewoks, and Corellian Corvettes do not exist, and nerdlings that drone on and on about them with 10x the insistence of the worst Fallout fans are annoying the eXtreeeeeeme.

Damn, I argue about lightsabers. Thing is though, that if you can't argue about lightsabers in the Star Wars setting, would you say the same ring true for FEV and/or supermutants in the world of Fallout. After all, there is nothing like that in the real world either.

Because it wasn't going to take place in the same geographic region. 9mm and .45 firearms were in Fallout 2. On our planet, if we were suddently to vaporize, you would find different calibres of firearms in different concentrations in different parts of the world. And although some people really did seem to want Fallout 3 to have absolutely nothing new in it, I don't think it's too presumptuous to think that a fair number of players would like to see at least some things change in the familiar patterns -- especially if the setting is different, geographically.

Also, I never suggested putting in real-world "name" weapons. All of the weapons had names like 9mm Submachinegun, .44 Revolver, .223 Minigun. In the "full" description, the manufacturer (Rockwell, Rheinmetal AG, 2nd Amendment Firearms, etc.) would sometimes be listed, but it was never a real-world company.

My reasoning came down to the following:

* Different regions of the Fallout world allow us a reasonable explanation for different weapons in different amounts.
* Keeping specific weapon names off but keeping calibre names on avoided extremely nitpicky gun-nut arguments but gave those "in the know" a fair reference point for what the weapon was about. I have noticed that gun fans seem to argue more about minute differences between firearms than between the overall properties of a generic calibre.

If that seems silly, sorry. But at least we weren't going the Deus Ex route.

(lolz)

I think it was at this point of the debate that I conceded and went back to a corner mumbling about continuity.
 

leombruno

Novice
Joined
Apr 29, 2004
Messages
10
"For those who have absolutely no clue as to how game series come about."

Thanks. That was about as meaningless as the rest of your venom. Back story minutes and details are the basis of any good game series. Take zelda for instance.

"Adhering to the setting is hardly an "easter egg". It's called "part of the setting". Guess why most game series fail? Because they do not adhere to the setting because some other developer got ahold of it and did their own shit."

To have ecological position of supermutants in the fallout world in game one dictating what role they should have in game two logically doesn't equate to instant imersion for me, I guess it depends on a persons expectation of a sequel I'll give you. To me it would preferable to reinvision the universe as neccisary and be as liberal as neccesary to create the game, story and scenarios the developers wanted to do. As long as RP, imersion can match or beat the original why is the main criteria to visit the precise same dusty imaginary world??

"You post something this unbelievably stupid, AFTER the release of F:POS?
Wow...I have no words to describe how utterly stupid you just made yourself to be."

I was able to ignore and thus get over F:POS, and that's nothing but some irelevant strawmaning, plus weak ad hominem.

"Child, are your familiar enough with a concept called "story and setting continuity" enough to put together the equivalent reason as to why people would hate The Matrix movies if the second and third didn't even bother to stick to the story and setting of the first one? I hope I put that into a large enough media reference that even you could understand it. Evidently, you have no talent in writing, otherwise your hapless mind would understand why you just proverbially buttfucked yourself publicly on this forum."

In my opinion a series of games is a different animal from a series of novels or in your example movies, continuing a single broad story arc. Though that would one way to go, another would be not milking a story that's already been told with as many installments as the public can choke down. Funny you selected the matrix, probably the weakest available example for your arguement. I don't remember the marvelous story making the FO a kick ass game, variance of paths/methods and the game recognizing/allowing and responding to a wide variety character archtypes was what I got from it.

"Nevermind, I already know the answer.

snip the rest of the clueless bullshit.

It's a good thing you're not in game design. Some real developer would go to trial for murdering you on behalf of the gene pool."

Sure buddy. I'm confident you can tell me much of game design and writing.
 

leombruno

Novice
Joined
Apr 29, 2004
Messages
10
Oh darn!

Demonstrate some intelligence or a logical arguement then it might have some weight when you call someone stupid. Otherwise its just a lazy excuse not to make a real point.

Anyway Rosh's rant is just about focusing on background details for reinforcing familiarity and has absolutely nothing to do with the games ability to allow and recognize the widest variety of self consistent characters that you may guide through the games adventure and moral struggles, which I would think must be the primary focus. He seems to imply do as much as you can while directly extending the all existing mythos, which is a bothersome limit IMO.

Only a few people would care that you could find out the slaverbaron in city X is the nephew of Metzger's wife, or other trite tie ins in place of a newly developed plot and back story for all areas and characters. If the idea of a 'what if' take is too offensive, then I might focus on divorcing the stories and separating the areas and events enough that the second story could be fully independant, in the same world. preferably concurrent so as not to be bound by peoples determinations of how the world would logically progress.
 

leombruno

Novice
Joined
Apr 29, 2004
Messages
10
Saint_Proverbius said:
leombruno said:
As far as the guns go I think JE's take was pretty much on point.

I can't see California prefering 10MM while Arizona or whereever using 9MM.

I should have said I liked the compromise(as a point to go ahead and move on from) rather than saying he 'was on point' implying perfect or something. Determining a distribution was his judgement call and contestable but pretty minor to me, the focus on calibre and function rather than trying to directly implement known weapons many people are familar with was a good decision IMO.
Of course from the other points I'm currently getting ripped on I would rather have them gone into the same general atmosphere with different details(rather than that worlds 'logical' future, which changes as many or more atmosphere dynamics as anything I might have suggested)), focusing on improvised weapons, and fantasy weapons already created for the setting along with a smattering of real world weapons like a shotgun and so on.
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
1,585
Location
Galway
Would anyone have been wounded if they had considered doing a european perspective on fallout? There was an entire other side of the world that was never touched on in the first two.
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
leombruno said:
"For those who have absolutely no clue as to how game series come about."

Thanks. That was about as meaningless as the rest of your venom. Back story minutes and details are the basis of any good game series. Take zelda for instance.

Thanks, that was as meaningless as the rest of your mental diarrhea of pathetic dodge attempts. Next time, also learn how to use the quote function unless you're too mentally vacant to understand the tags.

It's weak to use a console game with little backstory. Your poor mind could only come up with that? Now just imagine if Resident Evil and others, where the setting and story matter (and oddly enough is an important thing in CRPGS), were not handled well at all. The fans wouldn't be too receptive of it, as would say...pretty much like how others destroy their games with skewing the backstory or setting. If it's something non-sequitur like Final Fantasy, where the sequels are not usually meant as story sequels, that is one thing. When you're using a continuation of the universe, it doesn't make much sense to throw away the aspects you've set before.

Or is that too much for you to comprehend? It doesn't have to take much to see you have no idea of composition of literary and theatrical works, of which gaming neatly shares a few aspects with. One of which is that the audience prefers continuity. Crank that through your dictionary if you need help understanding the concept.

Game series are also made by making a world and drawing people in. What is important to constructing a game world? A rich setting and detailed history.

No, you just set your mind to "meaningless ignorance" and let the bullshit fly. Put a lid on that, kid.

"Adhering to the setting is hardly an "easter egg". It's called "part of the setting". Guess why most game series fail? Because they do not adhere to the setting because some other developer got ahold of it and did their own shit."

To have ecological position of supermutants in the fallout world in game one dictating what role they should have in game two logically doesn't equate to instant imersion for me, I guess it depends on a persons expectation of a sequel I'll give you. To me it would preferable to reinvision the universe as neccisary and be as liberal as neccesary to create the game, story and scenarios the developers wanted to do. As long as RP, imersion can match or beat the original why is the main criteria to visit the precise same dusty imaginary world??

Because there's something called "the game world" to take into account. Nothing cheeses off fans like toying with the game world.

Sorry, most people. You and your species are not counted as you don't understand the harm in changing the backstory. Even the simplest of writers could tell you that isn't a bright thing to do in middle of a series. Then again, you're proving you're just like Taoreich in being able to use a thesarus but otherwise have absolutely no idea of what you're trying to talk about.

Best wishes for the day you don't have to wear your helmet and pads anymore.

"You post something this unbelievably stupid, AFTER the release of F:POS?
Wow...I have no words to describe how utterly stupid you just made yourself to be."

I was able to ignore and thus get over F:POS, and that's nothing but some irelevant strawmaning, plus weak ad hominem.

No, that's called dodging under weak pretenses. I was drawing a parallel for you to hopefully understand why these things are reviled, but I can see how you can be too stupid to understand why F:POS didn't do too well. It wasn't just because of the pathetic gameplay.

Next time, if you're going to claim straw man arguments, you might want to make sure your accusation has some merit to them instead of your weak dodge attempts to recover from the unbelievably insispid comments you have made. You show that you have no clue about game design. There's no use in denying that.

In my opinion a series of games is a different animal from a series of novels or in your example movies, continuing a single broad story arc. Though that would one way to go, another would be not milking a story that's already been told with as many installments as the public can choke down.

Look up the word "sequel" and learn exactly how retarded you've made yourself to be with the above bullshit. People wouldn't buy a game in the setting, which uses the setting name, and is depicted in the setting, if they didn't like the setting. Changing the backstory is perhaps the most suicidal thing any storywriter, written, movie, or game writer could do.

Perhaps you're also too young to remember the old pick your own path adventure books, or for that matter P&P games. Solamnic Knights of the Sword Coast!

I'd like to see you try to use this argument in regards to Forgotten Realms on the BioWare forums. It would be worth it to see you ripped apart by them for that.

Funny you selected the matrix, probably the weakest available example for your arguement.

It was the best I could do, with your obvious ignorance I couldn't have used much else. I could have used something else, but since you've obviously not achieved a third grade ability in writing composition and have no hope of understanding setting design, then I'd doubt you'd be old enough to be familiar with Ultima 8 and 9 and why those were loathed and flopped. Hint: It's not just because of the control system.

I don't remember the marvelous story making the FO a kick ass game, variance of paths/methods and the game recognizing/allowing and responding to a wide variety character archtypes was what I got from it.

Maybe you need to go back through again without just seeing how you can finish the game. Pay attention to the setting this time. It's not surprising you missed the backstory due to your negligent attitude towards continuity.

Playing Final Fantasy will do that to you, kid. I'm sorry to see you brainwashed into thinking it was the norm.

Sure buddy. I'm confident you can tell me much of game design and writing.

I'm not going to bother wasting my time on someone as hopelessly naive as yourself. You use weak arguments and straw men (or for that matter, no argument at all) to argue that the story isn't important, yet you've shown no indication of seeing where the exact same arguments of yours have led to games being reviled and eventually failing as a franchise. Maybe your problem is that you're too young to have seen why Ultima died, and why games that skew the universe in which they are in are just as disliked.
 

leombruno

Novice
Joined
Apr 29, 2004
Messages
10
Rosh I will leave it at the fact we have quite different opinions on aspects of game design, since this is turning into quite a thread jack.

As far as the article goes MCA represented himself well, I look forward to the post Kotor2 projects.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
I have a feeling that leombruno is one of those people who prefers watching kiddy cartoons where continuity hardly ever matters. One moment Bugs Bunny is in jail, and the next he's out making life miserable for Elmer Fudd, over more sophisticated viewing. I wouldn't expect much from a person like him. He probably had no problem with the whole part about bringing Sean Connery back to life in Highlander 2 (through time, even), eliminating the whole plot about The Prize (of the original Highlander) and turning the Immortals into alien beings from another planet. Why bother, right? Continuity is just an easter egg.
 

Grifman

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 7, 2003
Messages
131
xJEDx said:
Sammael said:
The point is, of course, moot.
"Moot" means open to debate, not closed to debate.

It also means "deprived of practical significance : made abstract or purely academic", which fits since Fallout 3 has been cancelled. His useage was correct.

Grifman
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
leombruno said:
Rosh I will leave it at the fact we have quite different opinions on aspects of game design, since this is turning into quite a thread jack.

As far as the article goes MCA represented himself well, I look forward to the post Kotor2 projects.

It would be nice if you actually addressed his remarks with an actual argument. Evading the discussion by stating 'everyone has different opinions' is a chickenshit cheap way of dealing with it. What a cop out. If you're not going to present your opinions in the form of a discussion I would suggest not presenting them at all in the first place - for this is a discussion forum, after all.

I'd hardly consider this to be 'thread jacking' considering the fact that most people could easily skip the 'offending messages' and proceed to discuss the original topic, as they see fit. No one is stopping them. It should be made clear that the course of this discussion has lead us to this point, so we have no true alternative but to pursue this path of discourse, for it would be a betrayal of the intellectual mind to simply forego the materials that have been presented to us here in the form of an argument. We owe it to the argument to present our opinions, in turn, as remarks, rebuttals or even calls of support in favor of it. We owe it to ourselves, as sentient individuals, to let this discussion continue on its course, instead of derailing it as you have attempted.

The word of the day is 'momentum'.
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
1,585
Location
Galway
Exitium said:
I have a feeling that leombruno is one of those people who prefers watching kiddy cartoons where continuity hardly ever matters. One moment Bugs Bunny is in jail, and the next he's out making life miserable for Elmer Fudd, over more sophisticated viewing. I wouldn't expect much from a person like him. He probably had no problem with the whole part about bringing Sean Connery back to life in Highlander 2 (through time, even), eliminating the whole plot about The Prize (of the original Highlander) and turning the Immortals into alien beings from another planet. Why bother, right? Continuity is just an easter egg.

The memory of highlander two had scabbed over in my memory but is now once again a pulsating red wound, thanks ........ :cry:
 

Azael

Magister
Joined
Dec 6, 2002
Messages
4,405
Location
Multikult Central South
Wasteland 2
StraitLacedDeviant said:
Would anyone have been wounded if they had considered doing a european perspective on fallout? There was an entire other side of the world that was never touched on in the first two.

It would certainly make for better spin-off material than what they already did, but Europe would be extremely different from southern CA. Many of the things that made Fallout stand out would be missing, such as FEV and the mutations it spawned, the whole 50-esque Americana sci-fi backdrop, etc.
 

Ausir

Arcane
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
2,388
Location
Poland
Yeah, but a Fallout game based on communist 50s background set in Europe might be interesting.
 

leombruno

Novice
Joined
Apr 29, 2004
Messages
10
Exitium what would be the point of digging in? Filling pages with reply/quote bickering, why bother. I made a suggestion which happened to be met with flying feces, so at that point I consider it a dead issue. I also don't really see the point to entertaining ill will toward internet personallities.

As far as the importance placed on continuety I wanted to lessen it as I regard it as a minor aspect of the game compared to what FO really excelled at in my opinion. My take on a Fallout 3 is a preference for independance, probably preferably accheived by geographic separation on a concurrent or inbetween timeline of the previous games. To say continuity was nothing was over agressive but certainly is secondary to other aspects that actually effect or enhance the actual RPG aspects of the game, such as maintianing and respecting internally consistant characters the players can great to the widest degree possible.

Also its very late here, :wink:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Ausir said:
Yeah, but a Fallout game based on communist 50s background set in Europe might be interesting.
Would be cool, but why call it a Fallout game then? Cold War: Behind the Iron Curtain!
 

4too

Arcane
Joined
May 20, 2004
Messages
289
Laissez-faire Or All's Fair

Laissez-faire Or All's Fair

Is leombruno advocating the "artistic freedom" of bottling a white w'ine and labeling it a vintage red?

So the real 'plot' surprise, the pinnicle of unihibited creative forces, is a simple trick, that some would see as fraud.

In such an ethical environment, what other "restricive" expectations would be jettisoned in the lifeboat situation that is the computer game industry. A RPG that is a meaningless stat aquisition, and really just another reflexive FPS'er? And that's if there's a game there at all. Any misreputation is "free speech"? Then game design and game publication, and of course GAME MARKETING is an adversary endevour of Darwinian ferocity:
the oll' law of the jungle. The oll' law of the jungle that when it completes it's full cycle is more like ""eat AND be eaten"". Witness: Interplay.

If this is the real END to all these individual, ego centric, means, then I wonder if there's a job waiting at Interplay ...



With content strong enough to stand on its' own merit, why "hide" this brilliance of concept, this triumph of will and flowering of the individual magnificience ...

... why "hide''' under an assumed name?


If the pig flies, it's financial advantages are more akin to the Python's flying Sheep, so why hold it back by calling it a bird, a bee, or a bat?


One seeks the freedom from inhibiting intervention from a larger body politic, then conform to a universally, or maybe for the less discipled, the lowest common denominator of, recognised packaging and contrent. Touch base and move on.

Some might demand an oath ""Of Blood And Steel"". Do not be intimidated. There is the larger subset, a greater concensus, that embraces innovation when it is convincingly placed, in context, in the world of FO.


On planet building and the tedium of structionalism:

Those that have struggled through my spelling, grammar, sentance and paragraph structure know that I can't "DO".

I certianly, under the guidelines of the cliche, can't "TEACH".

So I claim the last refuge of dilletantes. I PREACH.

I stand and declare that a DISCIPLINED and therefore, FREE to be a truely creative writer-designer could flourish in the ""FALLOUT UNIVERSE"".

Let "The Size Queens" argue about "calibres". They 'do it' so well.

After the appropriate stroking of 'fig leaves" and "ass coverings", the game would be
"artisitically" free to play it's course ...

4too
 

Anonymous

Guest
Random clueless idiot talking about Fallout vs. Fallout fans

WONDAR who will win
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Exitium said:
4too > you, Patrick.

This is fact.

(delurk)

See, this just freaks me out. Patrick is my name.

Now I see the truth - but you'll rue the day. I have enough ammo to take down every last one of you.

(/delurk)
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom