Mini Games in TES Games?

[elander_]

I really don't understand this idea of mini-games. We can divide Fallout gameplay in sub-games like the tactical combat, gambling, beting on fights, dialog interaction, stealth gameplay, managing your equipment and training your character but all this is perfectly integrated into an rpg and works together in harmony. I wouldn't call this stuff mini-games. Whats the point? Just to have a new word they can shove to the press to pretend they are innovating?

On the other side if a mini-game, by definition, is something that is suposed to be repeatable and completely optional without any influence in the world or the player then these guys must have zero imagination for having to use this to make the game fun in the first place.

Bethesda said they needed to introduce mini-games to make some aspects of the game more interesting. Lets see dialog mini-game, lockpick mini-game, poition making mini-game, enchanting mini-game. None of this stuff was fun for me. Some of these mini-games were actualy stupid and insulting like the dialog mini-game. The only thing that was tolerable and could be turned into a sort of puzzle mini-game was potion making but there was no chalenge in this at all.

 

[Jim Kata]

Wow, that guy is a moron. No wonder oblivs sucks so much.

Too funee.

I also love seeing all the msfd quotes now. He is either a ridiculous liar or complete moron. I am kinda leaning towards moronic, though it is prolly a lot to do with being gullible and impressionable.

 

[sheek]

Realms of Arkania had some cool tavern 'mini-games' that added to the story. Play the flute, dance, gamble etc for money. I think there might even have been an arm-wrestling one. You could get drink and chucked out of the tavern.

Thing is, none of that depended on player skill...

 

[Romanian_Dude2005]

Wow, that guy is a moron. No wonder oblivs sucks so much.

He he... that's nothing, everyone here who saw the Oblivion Development Documentary would remember the goth chick who had alot of problems pronouncing "[Cheydinhal] There are alot of secret places in the game, like this well... might be used for nefarious practices or it could be *gigles* a secret door"

 

[Claw]

We can divide Fallout gameplay in sub-games like the tactical combat, gambling, beting on fights, dialog interaction, stealth gameplay, managing your equipment and training your character but all this is perfectly integrated into an rpg and works together in harmony. I wouldn't call this stuff mini-games.

Neither would anyone else, as far as I know. So what's your point?

 

[elander_]

"perfectly integrated into an rpg and works together in harmony"

When people tend to abuse of mini-games (when they are clearly not necessary) it shows one nasty frailty of the software house that is they don't work as team as much as they should and they have a problem integrating gameplay elements together into a game which is the job of a game designer.

Compare Daggerfall leadership with Ted Peterson and Oblivion leadership with Todd Howard. TP gathered a good group of writers and designers and was very open to sugestions from them all. If you read the TIL Special Collections section with some notes on the team you will see they were more like a group of parteners or firends working together.

Plus Daggerfall gameplay features are not nothing special if you mention each one out of context but when mixed together well by the hand of a good game designer like TP they are more than just the sum of its parts. On the other side Oblivion gameplay features that were so hyped ended up screwing up each other in the game. NPCs comments and reactions that looked misplaced, mini-games that looked stupid in a realistic dialog, no specialization.

To make my point short, well integrated gameplay is much more valuable than mini-games. Bethesda should show TH the door before he screws up everything, and put TP in it's place.

 

[Darkflame]

Holy Shit. Here's proof that the OB Devs are even more retarded than the fanboys.

[Brizzowne, next-gen Dev] Another big question that should be answered concerning minigames (challenges): Does the challenge rely on player skill or character skill or a mixture of both? I personally liked the lockpicking because, well, I was good at it. I could have a level 10 lockpicking skill and pick a Very Hard lock with no problem at all. I know of others who disliked it because they weren't that good at it...even if they had a high lockpicking skill.

I got to the point in the persuasion game where I would start it, mouse over each pie slice, see the expression the NPC gave for each slice, memorize it, and then click away. Once I memorized the NPCs expressions, I could raise the NPC's disposition to its max in a matter of seconds. This was all player skill. I liked it because, again, I was good at it. Others disliked it because there wasn't much character skill involved.

So, if we ever implement any new challenges (minigames) in future content the question of whether it should involve player skill or character skill, or both is a critical question to answer.

How the hell can this dev be so far off with regards to his fanbase? How can he under-estimate the LCD? Even all the fanboys are screaming "Bad Idea" to his suggestions...


here's another example:

Do you guys think Skill Books should be easily identified amongst a bunch of non-skill books? I sometimes find it frustrating to walk into a room and see a bookshelf with 30 or more books and know that there's a chance that one of them is a Skill Book, but at the time don't feel like activating every one of them. If they were easily identifiable I wouldn't have to look at every book and could quickly read it and gain whatever bonus it has to offer and move on. At the same time, if they were easily identifiable (by its texture or size), would it feel too "gamey"?

Or...

Do you feel like it's more of a reward (surprise?) when you stumble upon a Skill Book among several other non-skill books that look very similar?

 

[denizsi]

I want a "Rape the Little Girls of Tamriel" mini-game. Oh, I forgot. There is no children. Women will suffice then. I also want orgy mini-games, threesomes, foursomes, every combination as long as there is at least one female within the group.

There was an "adult" FPS game named "Immoral Combat". Any of you have heard of it?

(which is why I hate useage based levelling systems)

To correct it; which is why you hate the usage based levelling systems done so far.

The complexity level of a skill and the player's experience in a given complexity level should be different. While the player should be able to gain experience based on use on a specific complexity level of a skill and thus raising his odds at succeeding at that level, he should be doing something else to reach the next level of the skill, do a quest or consult with a trainer maybe, and only when he has sufficient experience on the last level of the skill. Such a use-based system might work even for you, perhaps?

edit:

corrected a typo

 

[Excrément]

They are not destroying a once gerat franchise, they are transforming a great franchise in a magnificent cash cow and that's all is about a company.
if you are not happy don't buy their game, apparently, Oblivion is very appreciated and look like the best RPG ever...

franckly I understand people who grown up with daggerfall and morrowind to not like oblivion (because this game is a copy/paste Daggerfall with shiner graphics and meanwhile he lost his charm) but if you were a newcomer to the serie I am pretty sure you will find this game amazing.

 

[sheek]

I want a "Rape the Little Girls of Tamriel" mini-game. Oh, I forgot. There is no children. Women will suffice then. I also want orgy mini-games, threesomes, foursomes, every combination as long as there is at least one female within the group.

May already have been made. I know there has been a flirting, marriage and pregnancy mini-mod made for Morrowind...

 

[Bluebottle]

because this game is a copy/paste Daggerfall with shiner graphics and meanwhile he lost his charm

Oblivion is a copy of Daggerfall only in the most superficial way possible.


With regard to mini-games, I don't care either way. One thing is for certain though, you have to have a decent game to begin with, before you start tacking mini-games onto it.

 

[Jim Kata]

They are not destroying a once gerat franchise, they are transforming a great franchise in a magnificent cash cow and that's all is about a company.
if you are not happy don't buy their game, apparently, Oblivion is very appreciated and look like the best RPG ever...

franckly I understand people who grown up with daggerfall and morrowind to not like oblivion (because this game is a copy/paste Daggerfall with shiner graphics and meanwhile he lost his charm) but if you were a newcomer to the serie I am pretty sure you will find this game amazing.

If you are an idiot you might find the game amazing, but I don't see how anyone over the age of 12 with a brain could do so for more than 8 minutes.

 

[Excrément]

[ to play Daggerfall, now I found the game boring quote="Jim Kata"]

They are not destroying a once gerat franchise, they are transforming a great franchise in a magnificent cash cow and that's all is about a company.
if you are not happy don't buy their game, apparently, Oblivion is very appreciated and look like the best RPG ever...

franckly I understand people who grown up with daggerfall and morrowind to not like oblivion (because this game is a copy/paste Daggerfall with shiner graphics and meanwhile he lost his charm) but if you were a newcomer to the serie I am pretty sure you will find this game amazing.

If you are an idiot you might find the game amazing, but I don't see how anyone over the age of 12 with a brain could do so for more than 8 minutes.[/quote]

I didn't say I found the game amazing.
to be franck I found the game quite boring in a RPG perpective, what the codex said before the release of the game(and I was the one with high hopes about this hgame at this time, I admit it) was true : choices but no consequences.
but meanwhile I did play daggerfall (the game that make me discover the series and the RPGs) again and was very disapointed. I was happy when I was 17 playing Daggerfall, now I found the game boring, repetitive with no consequences like Oblivion.
but there is one thing Oblivion has it is that at least the exploration part of the game is repetitive but cool and immersive and sorry to say that but I enjoy playing the game as a exploration/adventure game.

but now I imagine if I was a newcomer to the RPG and to the series, I am pretty sure I will find this game amzing and would be the best RPG ever.

don't forget the oblivion fanboyz of today will be the elitists codexers in 10 years slandering about TES 6...

I found the game fun, not amazing because not original.
and I think when you are 27, you want original mind game, when you are 15 you want freeform hack&slash (daggerfall) with shiny graphics and immersive world.

the question is the video industry is made for teenagers not for us, it was made for teenagers ten years ago and that's still the case. the day adults will stop to make baby and so go on to play video games maybe the video industry will be interested by this new audience...

 

[Jim Kata]

Sorry - I was not trying to imply that you did.

As for daggerfall, it was never fantastic and always seemed pretty generic to me, but it has a certain quality to it that makes it fun until you get to the point you are more or less godlike (like 10th level).

I can't imagine anyone loving the game that much, new to rpgs or tes in general, or not. I did have a friend check out oblivion and be blown away by it - he had never played an rpg before.


"the video game industry" shows how poorly things have become. Seriously. Computer games did not used to get lumped in with 'video games' ie arcade games like that, and there really were not too many moronic games out there - even the arcadish ones were by and large entertaining with decent gameplay.

Now, it is all utter crap aimed at teenagers.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

and I think when you are 27, you want original mind game, when you are 15 you want freeform hack&slash (daggerfall) with shiny graphics and immersive world.

I'm fifteen.

 

[Ladonna]

Thats why you like Oblivion Admiral. Thats ok. :D

Just on the subject of game quality. Has there ever been a drought this long or harsh between decent RPG's?

I missed the one during the mid nineties due to starting work then. Was it as bad as the one we are currently going through?

 

[Excrément]

and I think when you are 27, you want original mind game, when you are 15 you want freeform hack&slash (daggerfall) with shiny graphics and immersive world.

I'm fifteen.

because you tried the hack&slash before I guess and get bored since...
but the hack&slash used to be a good (?)beginning for young people attracted by RPG.

 

[Jim Kata]

Thats why you like Oblivion Admiral. Thats ok. :D

Just on the subject of game quality. Has there ever been a drought this long or harsh between decent RPG's?

I missed the one during the mid nineties due to starting work then. Was it as bad as the one we are currently going through?

The one in the 90s was largely imaginary. There were still rpgs of some kind throughout the whole of the 90s that didn't suck completely.

This one has lasted for pretty much the whole of the 2000s. Basically, rpgs are basically dead in the manstream and you have to scour to even find independents or modding projects worth a look.

 

[Excrément]

Thats why you like Oblivion Admiral. Thats ok. :D

Just on the subject of game quality. Has there ever been a drought this long or harsh between decent RPG's?

I missed the one during the mid nineties due to starting work then. Was it as bad as the one we are currently going through?

I don't think it was as bad because the rpg industry wasn't mature at this time and so it left place for originality (fallout and daggerfall were 2 good examples). but since the end of the 20th century, the RPG industry is now completely mature and it's hard to find something "new".
the last originality we may find nowadays in the video game industry may come from Nintendo (unfortunately for us, Nintendo is only good for multiplayer and not for single player RPGs...).
the problem it is that sony with his business strategy of releasing 300 bad games a day (quantity over quality) destroyed the originality of console games and the PC games followed this path...

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Thats why you like Oblivion Admiral. Thats ok. :D

Now I have diarrhea again.

 

[sheek]

The problem is people don't know what an RPG is, which is a symptom of culture in general. Ask ten people and seven will say something like 'Tolkien', 'Going on quests and picking up loot', 'Big tits elves' or 'Immersion'.

I think Daggerfall was already part of the problem. It isn't an RPG, it's a Roguelike with prettier graphics. You can never have an RPG which is just a bunch of random-generator scripts. Without some intelligence and human design on the other side it's like Pen'n'paper role-playing by yourself out of the D&D Beast Manual. I know some people who did that with PnP... "hey man, you shoulda seen it, my lvl-53 Paladin/Ranger yesterday killed 143 Kobolds single-handed". Mental masturbation.

 

[Excrément]

The problem is people don't know what an RPG is, which is a symptom of culture in general. Ask ten people and seven will say something like 'Tolkien', 'Going on quests and picking up loot', 'Big tits elves' or 'Immersion'.

I think Daggerfall was already part of the problem. It isn't an RPG, it's a Roguelike with prettier graphics. You can never have an RPG which is just a bunch of random-generator scripts. Without some intelligence and human design on the other side it's like Pen'n'paper role-playing by yourself out of the D&D Beast Manual. I know some people who did that with PnP... "hey man, my lvl-53 Paladin/Ranger yesterday killed 143 Kobolds single-handed". Mental masturbation.

I do agree.
but because it's not a rpg it's not bad games.
daggerfall is one of the best game I ever played even if it's not a "clever" game. you have "clever" game which I found bad game like I don't know : Sudoku...

a game is about entertainment and Daggerfall and Oblivion are a good entertainment to my mind. we sometimes judge the quality of the games according to how long the game last before we get bored...
Daggerfall : more than 300 hours so I say : excellent game.
Oblivion : 60 hours so I say : it just worth its 60$. but I am pretty sure if I never played daggerfall Oblivion would have last more than 300 hours...
so I think our appreciation of the games depnds on our proper game experience.

the codexers used to have a long experience of "rpgs" so they do not like Oblivion but I can guarantee you than the oblivion fanboyz will have the same reaction in 10 years.

 

[denizsi]

May already have been made. I know there has been a flirting, marriage and pregnancy mini-mod made for Morrowind...

No, I want it for Oblivion. I want to see Havoked boobies and asses swinging and bouncinh against the meat.

 

[stargelman]

I don't think it was as bad because the rpg industry wasn't mature at this time and so it left place for originality (fallout and daggerfall were 2 good examples). but since the end of the 20th century, the RPG industry is now completely mature and it's hard to find something "new".

Oh, I get it. Mature as in all those people that were sticking it to the man in '68 and that're now stock market dealers that eat little babies for breakfast if it helps their portfolio! That kind of mature! The kind of mature where as soon as you become mature, you throw away all your ideals for teh moneys!

 

[elander_]

You can never have an RPG which is just a bunch of random-generator scripts.

Besides the main quest with normal quests of a size equivalent to a small novel writen by TP, the game used templated quests not random-generated quests. Your confusion comes from templated quests allocating quest resources dynamicaly.

Quest templates are hand-writen quests except that they are repeatable, have a time limit for the chalenge and if you fail a quest you loose reputation with a guild or a faction (which affects how other factions deal with you) but the game doesn't end there. Everytime you pick a templated quest it will allocate a different dungeon, a different npc living in a dynamically allocated house, etc. Templated quests can do dungeon crawls for a nightblade or a battlemage, a quest to solve a crime with different participants and solutions everytime it is instantiated, to obtain some research item for the mages guild, to murder someone for the dark brotherhood, to help the knights on their crusade against witches or just to be a great thief who faints at the sight of blood. The devs clearly had an intention to help the player role-play a great vareity of chars.

Quests are not just quests for xp, gold and items. Each one provides the player with interesting lore bits about the world intrigue and npcs life-style. Thats why people say they enjoy Daggerfall politics so much. Dialog is scarce but quests text quality make you feel the world is alive. You need to have patience because the game is very slow paced and if you dislike dungeon crawling use cheats to teleport you to the hotspots of a dungeon.

Sure you can compare it to games that provided a greater number of more developed quests but Daggerfall was the begining of a formula that could be easly expanded to provide a great rp experience combined with a great rogue like experience. They only needed to add more templated quests to the system they have created. Maybe they could even use more optional and creative plotlines and also some ideas about localizing guilds from Morrowind.

And yet it seams that the best thing that is comming from Bethesda these days is mini-games LOL