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Minotaurs & Unicorns - upcoming classic oldschool retro RPG

Would you want to play it?

  • Yes! I love it!

    Votes: 3 3.9%
  • Yes, I like it

    Votes: 8 10.4%
  • Yes, probably

    Votes: 20 26.0%
  • Maybe, depends...

    Votes: 22 28.6%
  • Not really

    Votes: 5 6.5%
  • No, it's not my thing.

    Votes: 7 9.1%
  • No! It looks pathetic!

    Votes: 9 11.7%
  • Other/No opinion/Not sure

    Votes: 3 3.9%

  • Total voters
    77

Chris Koźmik

Silver Lemur Games
Developer
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
416
EDIT: The project has been abandoned (later, I reused some of the code for another game).


Hi, I'm an indie game dev and I wanted to post about my upcoming RPG :)

The basic premise is to bring back the fun from the time of Dungeon Master, Eye of The Beholder, Champions of Krynn, early Might & Magic, Wizardry, etc. Not as a remake, but let's say, as if these were still made today.

The core concept:
* old, classic, retro western style RPG
* first person perspective, 90 degree rotation
* pixelated and simple yet colourfull graphics
* world not too big, but full of encounters, NPC, locations (no huge empty wilderness)
* a lot of freedom with world exploration, not dictated by the storyline
* no excessive fat that would get into the way of your fun





 
Last edited:

poetic codex

Augur
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
292
I wonder... where were all of you guys before the big kickstarter frenzy of the past two years? There was a long drought, many were beginning to despair, then all of a sudden a deluge of "old school" RPG's start flooding the market around the same time. Surely you didn't start making this game in 2012, did you? Why didn't you guys come out of the woodwork before ? We had people like Vault Dweller and Cleve pushing on during the drought, despite people saying that old school turn based RPG's are dead, then NOW all of you guys suddenly decide you have enough balls to go public with your games? Come on.
 

Chris Koźmik

Silver Lemur Games
Developer
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
416
* no excessive fat that would get into the way of your fun
I'm curious, what would you claim was "excessive fat" in other games that your removes?
Well, it's less about what was wrong in other games (since it fits the other games) and more about what *this* game is about.

I really miss the time when I was playing these old RPGs. I was just adventuring via this (not too big at all, yet full of unique stuff all the time) world meeting NPCs that were brief to the point (no thousands of words per quest), if I was seeing a dragon or a troll I was to go and slay it (without worrying about karma system), when I was seeing a goblin I threw at it everything I got without worrying if I hit some innocent bystander which would ruin my karma and I could not enter this location again without waging a war vs everyone, when I got some attributes/skills I just assigned these (without browsing the net to find the best skill tree combination and worrying that because I spend this one measly skill point on the wrong skill I will be doomed at the end game). It was just light, fairy tale, adventurous thing. I want it in this game :)

I'm not saying these things are bad in general, I could not imagine Baldurs Gate without its tons of text or Diablo2 without the complex and restrictive skill tree system or the excellent karma system in Fallout. It all worked well, in those games. It's just not the kind of game I'm making :)
 

Night Goat

The Immovable Autism
Patron
No Fun Allowed
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
1,865,459
Location
[redacted]
Codex 2013 Codex 2014
There's no nice way to say this: that is a really ugly game.

Classic RPGs were good in spite of the bad graphics, not because of them. When you intentionally make a game look that bad, you're missing the point.
 

Chris Koźmik

Silver Lemur Games
Developer
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
416
Classic RPGs were good in spite of the bad graphics, not because of them. When you intentionally make a game look that bad, you're missing the point.
No, I'm not trying to make it "ugly" :) Actually, there are people (me included) that like this pixelated style. The decision regarding graphics was about the art style preferences, not about "making it look as ugly as old games". I perfectly understand there are many (maybe even majority) of people that don't like that graphical style (tastes differ) but I was just making a game I wanted to play, I was not following any "let's make it ugly for nostalgia" theory...
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Classic RPGs were good in spite of the bad graphics

"Classic RPGs" had good graphics for their time.

Why this one DOES look ugly is because of the huge discrepancy between the text, UI and in-game graphics. Why the fuck is the text high-res, the UI... med-res and the graphics so low-res? Obviously the game is not low res, you're simply faking pixels, so why not make everything either low-res or high-res.

I do appreciate your overall intentions with the game, though.
 

getter77

Augur
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
872
Location
GA, USA
This art style is just jarringly generic/unseemly though, Delver is something of a special case as opposed to a standard others should wrangle by. I strongly think it needs to be reconsidered, though as with others the overall intention of the game seems solid enough.

There's just no reason to cripple this aspect of your project to such a degree that it would put off folks that would otherwise enjoy playing it---if it is a budget issue for art/animation even then there must be better ways to go about it.
 

Don Peste

Arcane
Joined
Sep 15, 2008
Messages
4,390
Location
||☆||
This is a very interesting project. It doesn't look THAT bad. I can see those "discrepancies" FeelTheRads say, but it can be fixed.
I will try the tech demo when I get home. Keep up the good work!
 

Zed

Codex Staff
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
17,068
Codex USB, 2014
Inconsistent "pixelated graphics" is just lazy/obscuring art. Consistent 320*, 640* or whatevs same-resolution pixelart is great.
I'm a little tired of this trend among indies.

Regardless, I think this sounds like a good project. :)
 

dnf

Pedophile
Dumbfuck Shitposter
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
5,885
Graphics reminds me of minecraft. Not a good sign mind you.
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
Patron
Bethestard
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
21,144
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm guessing it's pixelated because they either don't have an artist or he's not good enough. With a game this pixelated anybody can make functional graphics with little effort.

* no excessive fat that would get into the way of your fun
I'm curious, what would you claim was "excessive fat" in other games that your removes?

By the looks of hit he wants shallow skill/stat systems (IE: Arena/Daggerfall) where numbers go up but not much else happens.
 
Self-Ejected

Cosmic Misogynerd

Self-Ejected
Patron
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
1,057
Location
Estados Fallidos Mexicanos
Codex 2013 Divinity: Original Sin
Looks interesting, but if you are going to use low-fi pixel art, then you should use pixel fonts for all your GUI elements. The mixture of normal fonts and pixel art makes it look incredibly jarring.

Also: Do you have a character system already selected? What about lore, design choices, enemy types, etc.
 

Aeschylus

Swindler
Patron
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
2,543
Location
Phleebhut
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
In general I am all for pixel art, but you need to improve the art direction/style of the main game screen a bit (the GUI looks ok, aside from the mini-map). Those monster sprites are just jarring, and need to be moved back a bit, and given more detail.

If you want to actually sell the game, you're going to need to make it look better than something done in MS Paint. Granted, it does look like something from the late-80s/early-90s, but more like a cheap shareware game than something like the Might & Magic series.

All that said, the game does look interesting, and I hope you can succeed in what you set out to do.
 

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,673
Location
casting coach
I like good pixel art but you really, a 13-pixel wide beholder taking up your whole screen is just too much. Sharpen it by power of 2 or 3, or more, and we'll talk again.
 

Night Goat

The Immovable Autism
Patron
No Fun Allowed
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
1,865,459
Location
[redacted]
Codex 2013 Codex 2014
No, I'm not trying to make it "ugly" :) Actually, there are people (me included) that like this pixelated style. The decision regarding graphics was about the art style preferences, not about "making it look as ugly as old games". I perfectly understand there are many (maybe even majority) of people that don't like that graphical style (tastes differ) but I was just making a game I wanted to play, I was not following any "let's make it ugly for nostalgia" theory...
Even without bringing aesthetics into it, there are practical concerns. When it's this pixellated, it's hard to tell what's going on. In this image for example:
urrpg-screen-barrier_zps7ddb6557.png
What is even going on here? What do those blue lines represent? Leaky ceiling? Blue snakes hanging from the rafters? Impending tentacle rape? Who knows?
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
23,731
Retro look != excuse to make your sprites look like shit.

This is not asking too much:
Eye%20of%20the%20Beholder%20(DOS).jpg
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
16,038
Yeah, the resolution should be consistent, or at least close to it. It's really jarring on the stuff right in front of you that is at some sort of 14x18 resolution? Wtf is that shit? Especially since the wall on the left is clearly in the ~1280 range given the lack of jaggedness on a diagonal line.

Whoever did the part sprites should be able to do the rest of the game to a similar level of quality. If it's a matter of time/money, maybe do it closer to what the UI is at than the party sprites, but there's no reason for the monsters to look worse than dwarf fortress tiles on a high res background. It makes the player acutely aware that he's playing a game, which is generally a bad thing. Your mind can play tricks on you if the resolution is all consistent. Hell, even an ASCII dungeon feels more like a real place than that image.
 

Chris Koźmik

Silver Lemur Games
Developer
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
416
Also: Do you have a character system already selected? What about lore, design choices, enemy types, etc.
Yay! A question that is not about size of the pixel :D

Well, at the moment I need to finish the engine. So the real meat of the game is scheduled "for later", once the quest system, skills, etc works I will start these... and I know it's lame to start the most important part later, but I simply don't want to be distracted by technicalities when I will be dealing with the gameplay. But I can give the general premise:

- The game is about the world, and less about the storyline. It is NOT a dungeon crawler, the overworld is an important place (not just a transition between dungeon).

- Most NPCs will live outside, somewhere in the wilderness. I want to avoid standard "go to a city and meet thousand NPCs most of which are lowly bantenders that ask you to kill rats". I want a rich world, with local inhabitants. Like you go to a swamp and meet a frog prince who got tuned out to this state because he refused to marry a nearby witch after he promised to marry her and then didn't deliver. A hermits on the desert. A king that has 3 daughters and gives you a quest to find suitable husbands for them. And so on. All of these will be local quests, not connected to the "grand storyline". Personally, I hate such grand storyline concept where everything revolves about saving the world or something. I want a rich world, where most people have their local problems and don't care about the big picture. I want to deliever the feel of a living world.

- The main storyline will be non obtrusive. Sure, there will be one and it will eventually lead to the final resolutuion, but that won't be the most important part. More fun will come from going around and emerging with local/regional storylines.

- The overall mood I strive for is a colourful fairy tale like fantasy. Also, I want some humour included too, not to a degree of a grotesque or a parody but still, I'm a bit fed up with all these "always deadly serious storylines" in games. They could drop a shy troll who has a quest to help proclaiming his love once in a while... Anyway, I will try to do it in my game.

- Small bits of the world's lore will be included in variosus NPCs conversations. I always loved when there was for example some ancient artifact that everyone talks about and the player started to recognize it after a while (and no, it won't be "found later by the player and by a coincidence that's what was needed to kill the last boss", no, I mean a real lore)

- Freedom of movement (exploration) would be important. I will try to avoid locking locations or putting unbeatable monsters and therefore artificially dictate where the player should go to next. Yes, there will be a hint of some sort where the player should go in case he/she is lost, but that would be a mild hint at most. No urgency, no restriction, you are exploring the world as you like.

- If you are worried about getting lost in a huge world without directions, I find it very unlikely. The total world map will be a bit less than 100x100 with clearly defined and distinctive areas (swamp, desert, etc). Also the quest will clearly state where the NPC is (like go to A5). Yes, I know some will say it's too small, but I really, really, really hate all those ten thousand miles world where you travel for days and just see trees and random bandits :) Small, compact and rich world will be in this game.

- Character creation, I have no clue yet.

- There will be no level caps. I know, a controversial decision and it will lead to some problems with balance during the late game. But honestly, do we really need yet another game with restrictive level up system? Once in a while there should be a game where you could level up to level 100 (and I don't mean by spending months of real time to do it), and I guess my game could be that one :)

What about the combat system?
Hmmm, a hard question to me. I did dozens of combat systems in my life and well, all these starts to getting merged together in my mind :D Anyway, I never had problems with these so I don't expect any issues here.

Generally, the current system in the tech demo will stay. It's a very fast turn based combat (if you fight a goblin and you are level 100 you just press the same button a few times, brainlessly, and it dies; if you see a powerfull hydra you can sweat over every decision and decide what spell to use and so on), generally I really love the flexible pace of the combat, it takes always exactly as much time as needed, no matter the opponent.

I will post more about it later (it's not finished).

I like good pixel art but you really, a 13-pixel wide beholder taking up your whole screen is just too much. Sharpen it by power of 2 or 3, or more, and we'll talk again.
Well, on those screens I made pictures of the combat and during the attack sequence (so it's an absolute maximum zoom), in dungeons these are smaller...

Even without bringing aesthetics into it, there are practical concerns. When it's this pixellated, it's hard to tell what's going on. In this image for example:
urrpg-screen-barrier_zps7ddb6557.png
What is even going on here? What do those blue lines represent? Leaky ceiling? Blue snakes hanging from the rafters? Impending tentacle rape? Who knows?
Have you played the tech demo by any chance? In the live game it's clear what it is... I mean, here you see only static pictures without context, it' much more clear in the game (BTW, I really liked some of your interpretations of what it is :D).
 

Luzur

Good Sir
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
41,993
Location
Swedish Empire
....reminds me of one of those "home-brewed" one-man-made-it-in-paint-and-basic-code early PC freeware RPG's you could find on shareweare discs back in the day.
 

Chris Koźmik

Silver Lemur Games
Developer
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
416
You know, I tried a non aliased pixelated font and it indeed looks much better! Thanks for the tip!

 

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