Editorial Moral Grey Areas in Dragon Age

[Serious_Business]

Just finished my first playthrough and, boy, do I ever have a bad taste in my mouth. Over all, I enjoyed it up until the end with only a couple of qualms (ignoring the new dialogue system which didn't work for me at all, but is a separate issue, I think). There were too many 'fetch 'x' number of 'y' quests, and I found some of the side quests pointlessly bleak (Corin's proposal, the man who couldn't buy the house).

I should have paid attention to those, however, because they were a sign of where this was going. It was a big sign that said 'don't expect fun. This is going to end badly.' They were quests where there was no win, and there was no win in Awakening as a whole. It didn't have the fun of Origins at all. That was probably the point, to take it darker. It was certainly dark. Way too dark for me. I find myself wishing I'd stopped with Origins. It ruined my happy ending. It's possible that I just made all the wrong choices, but somehow, I suspect the ending is bleak no matter what you do.

I did all that work on the Vigil just so the defenders could be overwhelmed in a week rather than a day? Really? After the battle with the Mother, I expected to return to the keep to fight alonside my men. I also thought reinforcements might arrive, given that Alistair said that he'd be back as soon as possible. Even if he'd arrived too late, I expected him to show up. That was disappointing.

Not as disappointing as the last line of the epilogue though. My PC goes back to court only to disappear in a couple of years? Shades of KOTOR. I didn't like that then, and I like it even less now. I might feel differently about it if there'd been any mention of the companions going after him/her, but nope. Nothing.

Dark fantasy treads a fine line. I though Origins did that pretty well. It allowed for people to go well off the heroic track if they wished, but also allowed those who don't find that appealing to deal with difficult choices, but still feel like they'd achieved a victory, both for themselves, and their companions. Here? Not so much.

I might try playing it again and see if I can mitigate the level of 'bad' somewhat, but I find I don't actually want to. I'm pretty depressed about the whole thing.

This was fuckin' hilarious

 

[Sceptic]

BLARGH!

So it expectedly sucked?

Wait what? I didn't say that. I was bashing the so-called reviewer for being a fucktard.

(btw the game does suck even though is has some good points)

aha, the old 'reasonable argument' ploy! don't fall for it, dude.

this. is. RPGCODEX.

Nah, this is how Volourn used to be even when he praised Bio. He was a p. good poster.

The post has made me rethink playing Awakening.

 

[DraQ]

BLARGH!

So it expectedly sucked?

Wait what? I didn't say that. I was bashing the so-called reviewer for being a fucktard.

(btw the game does suck even though is has some good points)

Ah, so it is ok, then?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

^Yeah, it's ok















for what it is

 

[Shannow]

Not much left to say after Volly (really? you didn't just copy paste that from somewhere?) and Sceptic.
But since the quote in the article mentions Sten: Did the whole Sten thing fail as much with anybody else as for me?
He was a murderer of children in a cage. Why would I go about releasing murderers from their cells? He never made an effort to get me to release him. Apart from knowing that he's a potential companion there is absolutely no incentive/reason to do so. It would have been more reasonable to release the deserter than Sten.
Only if I'd played a megalomaniacal, chaotic evil serial killer would I have released Sten. And then it should have taken wiping out the chantry, killing the soldiers and cowing or killing the villagers.
Which is really a shame. I think Sten might have been one of my favourite companions.

 

[Sceptic]

Ah, so it is ok, then?

See CK's reply

But since the quote in the article mentions Sten: Did the whole Sten thing fail as much with anybody else as for me?

It did with me as well but for slightly different reasons. My problem with Sten is that a good character would have no reason to release him in the first place and would therefore not know his backstory, but a chaotic evil serial killer wouldn't want to keep him after learning his backstory. Frankly the only reason I released him was pure metagaming: it was obvious he was a joinable NPC so sure why not. Then I never used him again and after talking to him I was even less interested in taking him. I never found his personality interesting and his character arc didn't seem to go anywhere, especially compared to Shale.

 

[Volourn]

"My problem with Sten is that a good character would have no reason to release him in the first place and would therefore not know his backstory"

Not true. I couldn't believe he had truly murdered that family. I actually believed that there was something deeper that happened, and we weren't getting the full story. Sten in the cage came across, at worst, as someone who regrets doing an awful thing, and at best someone who was framed for a crime he didn't actually commit. Man, was I gullible. L0LZ When it became obvious that he wasn't shitting me, I told him to fuck off 9only ebcause there was no opyion to execute him). In the end, I didn't believe he actuallyf elt sorry for murdering the family, and that in his mind, he felt justified doing so, and he'd do it again. Inhuman.

 

[Merlutz]

Frankly the only reason I released him was pure metagaming: it was obvious he was a joinable NPC so sure why not.

I get this impression from the article, too.

It's a big problem with Bioware games -- the writers seem to encourage you to experience all of the content in the game, which leads to very shallow choices. You won't miss any of the content ((EDIT: DA was a lot better than past games in this regard, seeing as you can, and would have a reason to, kill potential companions upon meeting them)) unless you consciously choose not to go to this area or resolve this situation, and you really have no reason to do that unless you're taking the Blight seriously (i.e. LARPing).

The difficulties involved in writing content that people won't see are, of course, significant, but despite its copious flavour text, Dragon Age isn't even anywhere near Deus Ex in terms of the illusion of interactivity (mostly thanks to Deus Ex's level design + character progression system).

 

[Volourn]

You can pretty much kill, or refuse to allow them to join most any joinable in DA. Hell, I slit Zevran's throat when I met him. And, if it wasn't for the internet, I'd never have known he was a potential joinable. A lot of BIO games are like this so it's not new for them. Even as far back as BG1. *shrug*

 

[Merlutz]

I was really just referring to NWN OC (fuck all), Mass Effect (though you don't choose for the latter there's Wrex, Ashley/Kaiden) & KotOR (Juhuehuahuehua), not played JE. But yeah, BG 1 + 2 are good like that as well.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

What's happened to Volourn recently? I find that I am actually able to read his post's without being subjected to brain hemorrhage.

You can pretty much kill, or refuse to allow them to join most any joinable in DA. Hell, I slit Zevran's throat when I met him. And, if it wasn't for the internet, I'd never have known he was a potential joinable. A lot of BIO games are like this so it's not new for them. Even as far back as BG1. *shrug*

The problem is that since BG the times in which you could drop a party member were limited. In DA, pretty much your only chance to get rid of other party members is to either A: Not pick them up in the first place (Not applicable for some, and a few others reguire metagaming to not meet them, as they force their way into your party), or B: make them leave by doing one especially mean thing that they really don't like.

If Alistar pisses me off, the only way to get rid of him is to wait for 80% of the game to be over and do something relatively unrelated that pisses him off. And as far as I know you can't get rid of the dog or Morrigan. In BG1/2, at any point in time you can tell them to fuck off. Admittedly its a bit different since in BG2 your party members all went to the tavern to wait, whereas in DA they are gone for good. One could say that the taverns in BG1/2 were like the party camp in DA, but in BG you weren't required to visit the tavern every half hour only to see all those assholes you hate hanging around.

 

[Volourn]

"What's happened to Volourn recently? I find that I am actually able to read his post's without being subjected to brain hemorrhage. "

YOUA RE A FUCKIN' BIG MORONIC PIECE OF DFUCKIN' SHIT WHO IS A DISEASE DESTROYING CODEX! In otyher words, fuck off.



"The problem is that since BG the times in which you could drop a party member were limited."

Bullshit. You don't have to take any npc in any NWN1 campaign. Why do you fuckin' lie?



"And as far as I know you can't get rid of the dog or Morrigan."

FFS You are ignorant and retarded. You can kill or ignore the dog complete. You can tell Morrigan to fuck off the moment you leave her mother's swamp. FFS

wHY IS THE cODEX FULL OF IGNORANT FUCKIN' MORONS?

 

[Shannow]

In before Volly gets his acc back... Oh, never mind

Not true. I couldn't believe he had truly murdered that family. I actually believed that there was something deeper that happened, and we weren't getting the full story. Sten in the cage came across, at worst, as someone who regrets doing an awful thing, and at best someone who was framed for a crime he didn't actually commit. Man, was I gullible. L0LZ When it became obvious that he wasn't shitting me, I told him to fuck off 9only ebcause there was no opyion to execute him). In the end, I didn't believe he actuallyf elt sorry for murdering the family, and that in his mind, he felt justified doing so, and he'd do it again. Inhuman.

Hm, I remember getting him to admit to it in that first meeting and absolutely nothing suggested that he didn't do it. While I of couse, also suspected a deeper story there was no incentive for me to search for it. Sten didn't ask me to free him. Only Leliana did, saying that nobody deserved to die in such a cage... Yeah, right. The goody two shoes minstrel that whines whenever you don't behave like a knight in shining armor, wants the remorseless child-killer freed...
Anyway, you saying that he came over as inhuman is probably the most praise you can give. A non-human character that actually seems inhuman. Makes me regret leaving him to rot in his cage (a little at least).

 

[Overweight Manatee]

"The problem is that since BG the times in which you could drop a party member were limited."

Bullshit. You don't have to take any npc in any NWN1 campaign. Why do you fuckin' lie?

Sorry, I wasn't even considering NWN1 since I don't consider it to be a game. Other then HOTU, everything was so shitty. NPC's in particular were horribly, horribly implemented. You are of course, correct.

"And as far as I know you can't get rid of the dog or Morrigan."

FFS You are ignorant and retarded. You can kill or ignore the dog complete. You can tell Morrigan to fuck off the moment you leave her mother's swamp. FFS

I'm pretty sure you can't get rid of morrigan. At least, not after you have let her slip into the group (Which dialog would make seem to be only a temporary thing IIRC, though I suppose it should be expected from a bioware game). The dog as well is about the same thing. I'm not talking about not letting them join, I'm talking about kicking them out AFTER they have joined and you realize you hate them. Because it's not like I'm really supposed to decide whether I like an NPC and want them in my group based on a 20 second introduction, right?

 

[Merlutz]

I'm pretty sure you can't get rid of morrigan. At least, not after you have let her slip into the group (Which dialog would make seem to be only a temporary thing IIRC, though I suppose it should be expected from a bioware game). The dog as well is about the same thing. I'm not talking about not letting them join, I'm talking about kicking them out AFTER they have joined and you realize you hate them. Because it's not like I'm really supposed to decide whether I like an NPC and want them in my group based on a 20 second introduction, right?

Actually IIRC you can tell her to get lost at any time you like. Same deal with at least some of the others. As you say, you'll need to initiate it at the camp, but DA is a bit like ME2 in that regard -- missions/quests, exploration and towns/planets are dealt with separately from things at your base which is the ship/camp. Needlessly arbitrating things is the future anyway.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Some people have bursts of temporary insanity, Volly has the opposite

 

[Sceptic]

Not true. I couldn't believe he had truly murdered that family. I actually believed that there was something deeper that happened, and we weren't getting the full story. Sten in the cage came across, at worst, as someone who regrets doing an awful thing, and at best someone who was framed for a crime he didn't actually commit.

I didn't see him as either, more like someone who had done it and just didn't care enough about what happened next. Not sure if that could be considered guilt. But anyway you're right, he only reveals the reason later on, and in fact I admit I genuinely thought there would be SOME kind of twist to his story.

In the end, I didn't believe he actuallyf elt sorry for murdering the family, and that in his mind, he felt justified doing so, and he'd do it again.

Not sure about doing it again but I'm p. sure he says outright at one point that he doesn't feel any remorse and that he considers him going berserk and slaughtering the people who saved him to be perfectly reasonable behavior. The complete lack of depth killed the character for me.

What's happened to Volourn recently? I find that I am actually able to read his post's without being subjected to brain hemorrhage.

Did you have to say that?

 

[Vibalist]

Ah, so it is ok, then?

See CK's reply

But since the quote in the article mentions Sten: Did the whole Sten thing fail as much with anybody else as for me?

It did with me as well but for slightly different reasons. My problem with Sten is that a good character would have no reason to release him in the first place and would therefore not know his backstory, but a chaotic evil serial killer wouldn't want to keep him after learning his backstory. Frankly the only reason I released him was pure metagaming: it was obvious he was a joinable NPC so sure why not. Then I never used him again and after talking to him I was even less interested in taking him. I never found his personality interesting and his character arc didn't seem to go anywhere, especially compared to Shale.

You can hardly expect his character to evolve anywhere if you never brought him along outside the camp. The thing about DA is that the characters will remain completely silent and never have anything new to say whatsoever unless you raise your influence level with them (which sucks, but that's how it is). The thing I love about Sten is that you can't influence him much by talking to him, it's all about what you do. In fact, I actually remember losing influence with him a couple of times just for talking to him for too long, because he felt it was a waste of time.

 

[Gosling]

Ah, so it is ok, then?

See CK's reply

But since the quote in the article mentions Sten: Did the whole Sten thing fail as much with anybody else as for me?

It did with me as well but for slightly different reasons. My problem with Sten is that a good character would have no reason to release him in the first place and would therefore not know his backstory, but a chaotic evil serial killer wouldn't want to keep him after learning his backstory. Frankly the only reason I released him was pure metagaming: it was obvious he was a joinable NPC so sure why not. Then I never used him again and after talking to him I was even less interested in taking him. I never found his personality interesting and his character arc didn't seem to go anywhere, especially compared to Shale.

You can hardly expect his character to evolve anywhere if you never brought him along outside the camp. The thing about DA is that the characters will remain completely silent and never have anything new to say whatsoever unless you raise your influence level with them (which sucks, but that's how it is). The thing I love about Sten is that you can't influence him much by talking to him, it's all about what you do. In fact, I actually remember losing influence with him a couple of times just for talking to him for too long, because he felt it was a waste of time.

Taking him on missions doesn't make his character evolve, he still remains one-dimensional. A mass-murderer and a child killer loves cookies - how cute!

 

[Volourn]

P.S. Anyone who actually believes that post on the last page is genuinely mine is fuckin' retarted espicially since the points in that post are a retarted reason to hate a game.

"I hate DAA because it's too dark."

FFS Dioes anyone really believe I'd write that fuckin' shit.

I love dark shit. I love shit so dark that I'd force your mother to eat her own shit after drinking your piss. FFS

 

[dragonfk]

P.S. Anyone who actually believes that post on the last page is genuinely mine is fuckin' retarted espicially since the points in that post are a retarted reason to hate a game.

Feeling little schizophrenic today? Bad cop, good cop? That won't work with us.

 

[Volourn]

PROTIP: Do a search on the BIO DAA forums for an exact replica of that post. Hilarious!

 

[Serious_Business]

"And as far as I know you can't get rid of the dog or Morrigan."

FFS You are ignorant and retarded. You can kill or ignore the dog complete. You can tell Morrigan to fuck off the moment you leave her mother's swamp. FFS

wHY IS THE cODEX FULL OF IGNORANT FUCKIN' MORONS?

Man, seriously? Jesus christ, what is this pure undiluted rage. This is over the top, get a hold on yourself man, you're pathetic. Go work out or have sex or something, I mean it seriously this is pretty sad, I don't think they're any humour in there, you really write this off furiously typing on your keyboard. And then you'll go 'nah I dont care roofle', but fuck it, I wouldn't want to be in your head. Anyway I love you Volourn because you have strong moral principles which you demonstrated in this thread, first by being a humanist, and then by insulting someone for no reason because you love human beings and know the value of goodness and hounour

 

[Brother None]

I think you guys broke Volourn.

 

[poocolator]

Volourn's got me all hot and bothered.