MSFD on Bethesda's uber next-gen skill system

[Lumpy]

Really, I don't see what's wrong with this system. I think it's as good as Morrowind's.
Of course, I'd still like it if you levelled up through you 10 biggest skills, and not the ones you chose at the beggining.

 

[Micmu]

Really, I don't see what's wrong with this system. I think it's as good as Morrowind's.
Of course, I'd still like it if you levelled up through you 10 biggest skills, and not the ones you chose at the beggining.

WTF?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Did it ever occur to some of you here, that the bedrock of American jurisprudence, "innocent until proven guilty" might be a better method of proceeding when judging games not yet released--rather than the reverse?

We have as much if not more information available to use than those who declare someone's guilty after some lengthy discussions. In other words, try again.

And why not make sure you understand the full ramifications of something (like skill progression) before you pronounce it anathema and excoriate it?

We do. Do you?

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Did it ever occur to some of you here, that the bedrock of American jurisprudence, "innocent until proven guilty" might be a better method of proceeding when judging games not yet released--rather than the reverse? And why not make sure you understand the full ramifications of something (like skill progression) before you pronounce it anathema and excoriate it? Doing it your way, you often prove yourself ill-informed and end up embarrassing yourself.

Yeah, don't blame the industry that made us this way *cough* Daikatana *cough*.

 

[ExMonk]

Did it ever occur to some of you here, that the bedrock of American jurisprudence, "innocent until proven guilty" might be a better method of proceeding when judging games not yet released--rather than the reverse?

We have as much if not more information available to use than those who declare someone's guilty after some lengthy discussions. In other words, try again.

And why not make sure you understand the full ramifications of something (like skill progression) before you pronounce it anathema and excoriate it?

We do. Do you?

Well, well. VD missing the point on purpose -- again. His specialty.

This post is exhibit A: Twinfalls becomes unglued, raking the Oblivion skill system over the coals, only to find out that she didn't understand it completely, and she softens her critique.

The point is, when new information becomes available, why hasten to judgment? Why immediately pronounce the company guilty? Why not make sure you understand the NEW INFORMATION before you condemn it?

 

[Twinfalls]

Yeah, don't blame the industry that made us this way *cough* Daikatana *cough*.

*cough*Morrowind*cough*

 

[Greatatlantic]

Sometimes Exmonk, but when you've reading game hype and playing games for as long as some people here, you can get a pretty good idea of whats going to happen. A lot of people knew Dungeon Lords was going to be an unmitigated disaster long before it came out. The "painful turn-based combat" gem did come out of it though. Now, I don't think anyone has claimed Oblivion will be a bad game based on what we've heard, though VD has certainly honed in on the reductionist approach to the gameplay Beth seems to have embraced. Obviously final judgement is reserved for the finished product, but speculation and logical conclusions based on what we're told is certainly fair game. Why bother to read press releases at all if the only thing that matters is the final product.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, well. VD missing the point on purpose -- again. His specialty.

ExMonk's trying to stir up some shit -- again. His specialty.

This post is exhibit A: Twinfalls becomes unglued, raking the Oblivion skill system over the coals, only to find out that she didn't understand it completely, and she softens her critique.

If you want to say something to Twinfalls, you address your post to him/her. Otherwise, we shall assume that you are speaking to all or most of us.

The point is, when new information becomes available, why hasten to judgment? Why immediately pronounce the company guilty? Why not make sure you understand the NEW INFORMATION before you condemn it?

Once again, I UNDERSTAND. Do you? What's with trying to love every new dumbed down feature?

 

[bryce777]

Well, the way he's explained it, it is better though it did not appear that way from the original post.

If it is exponential then ideally I would like to see it so you could not get to 100 in a skill without playing nonstop for 10 years, and have 80-90 be extremely high.

As for minor skills improving faster that's obviously because they start off lower.

It would be even better if they made the minor skills progress slower - such as if they started off at the same rung of exponentiation as the major skills even though they had a lower start value.

In an exponential system, modifying the constant as some are suggesting is a stupid idea because it might now really affect things much.

I think what he is trying to say is that you could be a mage/thief/diplomat etc., but the effort required to progress is so much more people will tend to concentrate in their main areas. At least, that's what I am taking it to mean and here's to hoping....

 

[Chefe]

The point is, when new information becomes available, why hasten to judgment? Why immediately pronounce the company guilty? Why not make sure you understand the NEW INFORMATION before you condemn it?

 

[Fintilgin]

It does seem like you should get a bonus to the speed you learn your major skills (or, a malus on your minor skills). It seems like it would make your 'class' choice more meaningful and represent your characters natural inclinations and talents.

But I think it's one of those things that I'll have to play before I can make up my mind. I certainly agree that the multiplyer thing is the big issue with the current Elder Scrolls skill system. You can either min/max and train skills for no other reason then the multiplyers or permenantly screw your character with lower stats. Personally, I'd like to see them go back to a flat number of bonus points each level which you can distribute as you please. Or maybe just tweak it to either make it so only major skills count towards multiplyers or minor skill don't count as much.

 

[ExMonk]

Well, well. VD missing the point on purpose -- again. His specialty.

ExMonk's trying to stir up some shit -- again. His specialty.

This post is exhibit A: Twinfalls becomes unglued, raking the Oblivion skill system over the coals, only to find out that she didn't understand it completely, and she softens her critique.

If you want to say something to Twinfalls, you address your post to him/her. Otherwise, we shall assume that you are speaking to all or most of us.

The point is, when new information becomes available, why hasten to judgment? Why immediately pronounce the company guilty? Why not make sure you understand the NEW INFORMATION before you condemn it?

Once again, I UNDERSTAND. Do you? What's with trying to love every new dumbed down feature?

Copy cat. Please try to be original in your responses. :wink:

I said that Twinfalls post was exhibit A. I never said that hers was the only example in the thread, did I? In my original post I said "some of you," which doesn't mean most or all, last time I checked.

You are part of that some, however. The second post of this thread, you rushed to judgment like you frequently do. You also did it in a similar thread on this same topic. But that's you. It's what you do.

Apparently because game companies have "burned" you so often in the past, all rpgs are guilty until proven innocent. I wonder if you approach women and dating in the same way.

In Twinfalls defense, at least she admits that her original assessment was not completely accurate, something that your gigantic ego doesn't allow you to do. Perhaps you have admitted that you were partially mistaken about something and I missed it.

By contrast I like GhanBuriGhan's approach. He disapproved, but it was measured. When MSFD responded, he qualified his comments by saying, "it seems that."

And on what basis do you think I "love every new dumbed down feature"? Evidence, please? I like to sit back and gather more evidence before I weigh in. Maybe it comes with maturity.

 

[ExMonk]

I think what he is trying to say is that you could be a mage/thief/diplomat etc., but the effort required to progress is so much more people will tend to concentrate in their main areas. At least, that's what I am taking it to mean and here's to hoping....

That's my take on it thus far also.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Well, the way he's explained it, it is better though it did not appear that way from the original post.

If it is exponential then ideally I would like to see it so you could not get to 100 in a skill without playing nonstop for 10 years, and have 80-90 be extremely high.

As for minor skills improving faster that's obviously because they start off lower.

It would be even better if they made the minor skills progress slower - such as if they started off at the same rung of exponentiation as the major skills even though they had a lower start value.

In an exponential system, modifying the constant as some are suggesting is a stupid idea because it might now really affect things much.

I think what he is trying to say is that you could be a mage/thief/diplomat etc., but the effort required to progress is so much more people will tend to concentrate in their main areas. At least, that's what I am taking it to mean and here's to hoping....

the last part is exactly what I am still wondering about. Since lower ranked skills increase faster, isn't it MORE rewarding to work on those instead of the ones you chose for the class? MSFD says NO, but I am not sure i understand why.
And really the main thing I was trying to get at is the slower progress of minor skills (plus more skill tiers sound better to me). Why not use different versions of that curve, or different styles of curve to distinguish a little more between Main and Minor? Oh well, we will see.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You are part of that some, however. The second post of this thread, you rushed to judgment like you frequently do. You also did it in a similar thread on this same topic. But that's you. It's what you do.

Apparently because game companies have "burned" you so often in the past, all rpgs are guilty until proven innocent.

Isn't that what you do though? I posted a negative response and you immediately assume that it coudn't be anything else but a rushed judgement. Anyway, I posted an explanation here:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10321

I wonder if you approach women and dating in the same way.

What way would that be?

In Twinfalls defense, at least she admits that her original assessment was not completely accurate, something that your gigantic ego doesn't allow you to do. Perhaps you have admitted that you were partially mistaken about something and I missed it.

The only person with a gigantic ego here is you as it's clear to you that you are absolutely right, and I'm absolutely wrong and thus should accept my wrongness to please you.

By contrast I like GhanBuriGhan's approach. He disapproved, but it was measured. When MSFD responded, he qualified his comments by saying, "it seems that."

Wow, that's awesome. I want to be just like Ghan when I grow up.

And on what basis do you think I "love every new dumbed down feature"? Evidence, please? I like to sit back and gather more evidence before I weigh in. Maybe it comes with maturity.

You bitch every time I criticize something stupid.

 

[bryce777]

Well, well. VD missing the point on purpose -- again. His specialty.

ExMonk's trying to stir up some shit -- again. His specialty.

This post is exhibit A: Twinfalls becomes unglued, raking the Oblivion skill system over the coals, only to find out that she didn't understand it completely, and she softens her critique.

If you want to say something to Twinfalls, you address your post to him/her. Otherwise, we shall assume that you are speaking to all or most of us.

The point is, when new information becomes available, why hasten to judgment? Why immediately pronounce the company guilty? Why not make sure you understand the NEW INFORMATION before you condemn it?

Once again, I UNDERSTAND. Do you? What's with trying to love every new dumbed down feature?

Copy cat. Please try to be original in your responses. :wink:

I said that Twinfalls post was exhibit A. I never said that hers was the only example in the thread, did I? In my original post I said "some of you," which doesn't mean most or all, last time I checked.

You are part of that some, however. The second post of this thread, you rushed to judgment like you frequently do. You also did it in a similar thread on this same topic. But that's you. It's what you do.

Apparently because game companies have "burned" you so often in the past, all rpgs are guilty until proven innocent. I wonder if you approach women and dating in the same way.

In Twinfalls defense, at least she admits that her original assessment was completely accurate, something that your gigantic ego doesn't allow you to do. Perhaps you have admitted that you were partially mistaken about something and I missed it.

By contrast I like GhanBuriGhan's approach. He disapproved, but it was measured. When MSFD responded, he qualified his comments by saying, "it seems that."

And on what basis do you think I "love every new dumbed down feature"? Evidence, please? I like to sit back and gather more evidence before I weigh in. Maybe it comes with maturity.

Well, first off not to bash on him but mfsd is a typical programmer in that sometimes it's like trying to talk to rain man to get any coherent info out of the dude. Taking what he said at face value, we have no reason to think that they have improved the way things work.

Second, logic would suggest we can establish future patterns based upon past events. In fact, there are entire sciences based around this. You seem like the loonie fundamentalist type who does not 'believe' in science, but I would think that it requires faith to see my statement stands on its own.

Selling a game is a different matter than establishing innocence. They are opposite things. I court, you have to prove that someone is guilty, but in selling something, you have to convince people it has some merit. Really cool screenshots might do the job for some consumers but that doesn't mean they will like it once they buy it; even I bought morrowing...I just never played it after the first hour and seeing how fucking stupid some of its features were....

 

[obediah]

The point is, when new information becomes available, why hasten to judgment? Why immediately pronounce the company guilty? Why not make sure you understand the NEW INFORMATION before you condemn it?

The same reason people smack a cue ball with all their worth when the pocket is 2' away. It looks cool when it works, and you can just laugh it off and forget about it when it doesn't work.

 

[ExMonk]

You bitch every time I criticize something stupid.

Let me hear you praise one feature of Oblivion, and I'll stop bitching. Then we can make up and spend our evenings together like we used to.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

we've had a lot of people playtesting the game for months, providing lots of feedback.

I hope to find many bugs and other complaints in Oblivion which will allow me to make varioius proclomations along the lines of "BUT I THOUGHT THEY PLAY TESTED THIS?" and "HEY DIPSHIT PLAY-TESTERS, WHEN THE GAME CRASHED ON YOU WHEN YOU KILLED THE FOOZLE, DID YOU THINK OF MAYBE TELLING SOMEBODY ABOUT IT?".

I'm developing a store of all-caps comments as we speak, ready for my first complaint.

ExMonk's trying to stir up some shit -- again. His specialty.

If that's Exmonk's speciality, then he really sucks at it.

 

[VenomByte]

Really, I don't see what's wrong with this system. I think it's as good as Morrowind's.
Of course, I'd still like it if you levelled up through you 10 biggest skills, and not the ones you chose at the beggining.

Morrowind's System was awful!

Lets look at the 'improvements'

-No major/minor distinction, major skills only.
-Class skills now can be learnt as easily as normal skills.
-Fewer skills to choose from.

Combined, these make an already awful system pretty dire. What little incentive there was to carefully choose and play to your class has vanished without a trace. There is far less freedom of choice and therefore meaningful character creation and development.

Yes, this is a great system to 'balance' your character to encourage becoming generic ThiefBattleMage #1124

Don't even get me started on the multipliers and 'levelling up'...

 

[bryce777]

Well, the way he's explained it, it is better though it did not appear that way from the original post.

If it is exponential then ideally I would like to see it so you could not get to 100 in a skill without playing nonstop for 10 years, and have 80-90 be extremely high.

As for minor skills improving faster that's obviously because they start off lower.

It would be even better if they made the minor skills progress slower - such as if they started off at the same rung of exponentiation as the major skills even though they had a lower start value.

In an exponential system, modifying the constant as some are suggesting is a stupid idea because it might now really affect things much.

I think what he is trying to say is that you could be a mage/thief/diplomat etc., but the effort required to progress is so much more people will tend to concentrate in their main areas. At least, that's what I am taking it to mean and here's to hoping....

the last part is exactly what I am still wondering about. Since lower ranked skills increase faster, isn't it MORE rewarding to work on those instead of the ones you chose for the class? MSFD says NO, but I am not sure i understand why.
And really the main thing I was trying to get at is the slower progress of minor skills (plus more skill tiers sound better to me). Why not use different versions of that curve, or different styles of curve to distinguish a little more between Main and Minor? Oh well, we will see.

Well, with his system, when you have zero in a skill you need to use it say 10 times to increase it. If you have ten in a skill, you have to use it say 50 times.

So, since you start at a higher level in your major skills, you will very likely use sneak 10 times before you use alteration 50 times. Eventually you will probably even out and presumably use your major skills more often in order to advance levels, and if any minor skill reaches a level close to a major skill then it will stop being easier to improve it.

 

[ExMonk]

You seem like the loonie fundamentalist type who does not 'believe' in science, but I would think that it requires faith to see my statement stands on its own.

Selling a game is a different matter than establishing innocence. They are opposite things. I court, you have to prove that someone is guilty, but in selling something, you have to convince people it has some merit. Really cool screenshots might do the job for some consumers but that doesn't mean they will like it once they buy it; even I bought morrowing...I just never played it after the first hour and seeing how fucking stupid some of its features were....

First, where did I give you the impression that I don't believe in science? I just find it laughable that some consider Darwinian evolution "science" and treat it as an unassailable, never to be criticized sacred cow.

Second, yes, I'm quite familiar with probability theory. And yes, that applies here. Good point.

Third, I don't blame those who were disappointed in Morrowind for being guarded or pessimistic toward Oblivion. Some of you go way beyond that though. Some have so made up their mind that Oblivion will suck, that it doesn't seem that new pieces of information about the game are being rationally or objectively evaluated. The reaction is knee jerk criticism and then everyone piles on. It's a codex pasttime. Since I don't feel jilted by Bethesda, I guess I don't get the whole "you can't trust anything she says" thing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You bitch every time I criticize something stupid.

Let me hear you praise one feature of Oblivion, and I'll stop bitching.

Ok. *mumbles: "one feature, one feature, gotta be something that they forgot to remove or dumb down"* Well, can't think of anything. When I do, I'll let you know.

Don't get me wrong, Oblivion could be a decent game, but it's certainly not praise-worthy. Not at this point.

Then we can make up and spend our evenings together like we used to.

As tempting as that sounds, I would have to pass on that.

 

[Shagnak]

Well, can't think of anything. When I do, I'll let you know.

Oh come on!
You must admit the graphics look purty :wink:

 

[bryce777]

You seem like the loonie fundamentalist type who does not 'believe' in science, but I would think that it requires faith to see my statement stands on its own.

Selling a game is a different matter than establishing innocence. They are opposite things. I court, you have to prove that someone is guilty, but in selling something, you have to convince people it has some merit. Really cool screenshots might do the job for some consumers but that doesn't mean they will like it once they buy it; even I bought morrowing...I just never played it after the first hour and seeing how fucking stupid some of its features were....

First, where did I give you the impression that I don't believe in science? I just find it laughable that some consider Darwinian evolution "science" and treat it as an unassailable, never to be criticized sacred cow.

Second, yes, I'm quite familiar with probability theory. And yes, that applies here. Good point.

Third, I don't blame those who were disappointed in Morrowind for being guarded or pessimistic toward Oblivion. Some of you go way beyond that though. Some have so made up their mind that Oblivion will suck, that it doesn't seem that new pieces of information about the game are being rationally or objectively evaluated. The reaction is knee jerk criticism and then everyone piles on. It's a codex pasttime. Since I don't feel jilted by Bethesda, I guess I don't get the whole "you can't trust anything she says" thing.

I believe in god, but I don't believe in being retarded. Not everything in the bible is literal, and most of it is not...and much of the common beliefs of what it says have been perverted. For instance an eye for an eye etc. is a limitation on vengeance, not a call for it.

Overall, you have to admit the game is obviously being simplified. That is not always a bad thing, but I think most of the people here would have liked to see a richer, more complex character development system instead of one where they have basically nixed most of the skills and features. If they balanced the difficulty of leveling up a bit then it might be pretty good but we will have to see if that is the case and the statements he's made alone are not enough to judge that.