MSFD on Bethesda's uber next-gen skill system

[GhanBuriGhan]

Wow, that's awesome. I want to be just like Ghan when I grow up.

Well, well. You have a lot to learn, young Padawan...

 

[Chefe]

You must admit the graphics look purty :wink:

Compared to the next-gen stuff I've seen the graphics are nothing special. The NPCs, however, look WORSE than what I've seen this gen, and (in a few cases) last gen. They're just hideous. Downright horrible.

*Ugly not from a polygonial standpoint, but ugly from every other standpoint.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Really, I don't see what's wrong with this system. I think it's as good as Morrowind's.
Of course, I'd still like it if you levelled up through you 10 biggest skills, and not the ones you chose at the beggining.

Morrowind's System was awful!

Lets look at the 'improvements'

-No major/minor distinction, major skills only.
-Class skills now can be learnt as easily as normal skills.
-Fewer skills to choose from.

Combined, these make an already awful system pretty dire. What little incentive there was to carefully choose and play to your class has vanished without a trace. There is far less freedom of choice and therefore meaningful character creation and development.

Yes, this is a great system to 'balance' your character to encourage becoming generic ThiefBattleMage #1124

Don't even get me started on the multipliers and 'levelling up'...

Well, there are a few improvements too. The perk system is a good addition. And I do aprove that skills now become harder to learn as you gain higher skill ranks, thus slowing advancement. (MW actually had the reverse effect since only successfull skill use counted, or counted more, therefre you levelled faster and faster as your skills got better).

I am unhappy about the removed skill layer and using the same skill progression curve across the board. Well, lets hope them playtesters are not completely off, and that the system plays a lot better than it sounds...

 

[Claw]

Ok. *mumbles: "one feature, one feature, gotta be something that they forgot to remove or dumb down"* Well, can't think of anything. When I do, I'll let you know.

Oh, come on. The "procedurally generated forests" are a cool feature. I like to think of it as step towards the tradition games like Realms of Arkania and Fallout follow, where the world is represented by a map, with only specific locations being handcrafted.
I am greatly in favour of this method of increasing the size of the gameworld by differentiating between specific locations and the "wilderness" surrounding them.
Morrowind for all it's praised scale could never create the same feeling of adventure for me like being several days away from even the smallest village in RoA.

 

[Zomg]

No shit. If someone asked me to name something exciting about Oblivion, the forest work would be the first thing out of my mouth. The fact that it was done largely with procedural tools is also quite interesting. The "soil erosion lol" meme is cute, but the research they did into it for modifying the Speedtree tool really shows. I hope companies keep using procedural content middleware (and thus encourage more types - How long until citygen?) instead of allowing budgets to balloon further out of control with handmade art, and the quality of the Oblivion forests is a great advertisement.

The perk system is also promising.

 

[AnalogKid]

What rational reason is there to insert a breakpoint for this, when there's no particular reason not to simply use a continuous model? Why should massaging all of my, say, miscellaneous mysticism improves into the same time frame that I was getting better with a major-skill axe end up making me a stronger (higher-statted) person all around? Why not just accrete stat improvements with each skill improvement, like the Galsiah's Character Development mod, which is obviously superior to the stock system in every respect?

Secondly, the multiplier system fucks balance in the ass sideways, and even more so in a levelled-list system. There is a profound difference in Morrowind between the power of a multiplier-optimized character and a naive one, and if the general balance problems in Morrowind weren't so severe as to wash out the difference a game balanced for an optimized character would render an unoptimized one useless, and in the reverse case the optimized character would be completely unchallenged.

I think this is a perfect example of VD's mantra (dumbing down!). They realized that the multiplier system blows chunks, so instead of making the obvious fix, they made it so that misc. skills are easy to raise and also affect the multipliers. Therefore, everyone can play the multiplier game without difficulty!

Why make a system with no need for playing dumbass metagames when you can just make it easier for everyone to participate in being a dumbass!?

 

[OverrideB1]

So let me see if I have this "improvement" down correctly.

I have speciality skills that define my class - effectively making me what I am, be it mage, warrior, thief. But those skills, the ones I rely on most are exponentially harder to learn after each incremental improvement.

Meanwhile my misc skills, the stuff I don't need as much, levels up like stink until it hits the same sort of brickwall as my majors?

So, basically what you're saying is that you solved the "jack of all trades at lvl100 in all skills" problem by inserting a "jack of all trades at lvl80 in all skills" problem? Real smooth...

 

[HardCode]

Like I said in another thread -- we have a lot of people playtesting the game. This has been tweaked and tested, balanced and rebalanced, and we've received a lot of feedback about level progression. We're pretty happy with it -- it's a much better system than Morrowind's.

But, who are these playtesters? Employees/friends of Bethesda? Do they have the balls to say the whole system sucks, if they fell that way, without fear of getting fired for not being a "team player", or excommunicated by Bethesda?

Insiders alone usually will not provide quality feedback in terms of balance and stuff. Sure, they can report crashes and such bugs. But usually, are they a good statistical representation of the consumers to comment on balance issues and systems like skills & leveling?

 

[thomase]

Whenever anyone mentions Galsiah's Character Development, MSFD disapears...

 

[vazquez595654]

The fact that all skills go up at the same time I think is a good thing. Not because it's more realistic or allows for truer roleplaying or whatever, but because in Morrowind there is so much information on stats that they don't give you that trying to figure out how some of the game systems work is challenge in and of itself. Of course I think the whole skill system is rather boring and basic (on the outside). How about subclasses, how about skill trees, how about special skills for classes, how about special skills for races, how about special weapons for classes? No. Like I said boring and basic.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, can't think of anything. When I do, I'll let you know.

Oh come on!
You must admit the graphics look purty :wink:

Oh, come on. The "procedurally generated forests" are a cool feature. I like to think of it as step towards the tradition games like Realms of Arkania and Fallout follow, where the world is represented by a map, with only specific locations being handcrafted.
I am greatly in favour of this method of increasing the size of the gameworld by differentiating between specific locations and the "wilderness" surrounding them.

No shit. If someone asked me to name something exciting about Oblivion, the forest work would be the first thing out of my mouth.

Don't get me wrong, I like good graphics, but graphics neither make nor break an RPG. I'm sure that Bethesda would disagree with me, because looks like purty graphics is all they've got, but that's my opinion. As for the forests, I can't say I care. It would have been a great feature in a Myst game, but in an RPG it's merely a minor bonus. At least for me. I'm sure most people would look at the forests for 10 minutes the first time they see them. Then what? Fast-travel and sweet memories?

 

[Shagnak]

Well, can't think of anything. When I do, I'll let you know.

Oh come on!
You must admit the graphics look purty :wink:

I'm sure that Bethesda would disagree with me, because looks like purty graphics is all they've got, but that's my opinion.

Hence my remark.
I even added a winky thing

 

[Twinfalls]

Hey ExMonkey - want to read VD praising Oblivion?

Here:

There are five skill thresholds you'll need to reach in order to access the higher level benefits skill specialization yields. While your skill may start at five or 15 depending on what you've assigned yourself, it needs to reach 20 to access the next tier of skill benefits. The tier names are novice, apprentice, journeyman, expert, and master. As an example, if you're able to increase your armorer skill the master level, you can repair items beyond 100 percent, whereas at lower levels you may only be able to restore it to 50 percent and be restricted from repairing magical items. At the highest levels of the mercantile skill you're even able to invest in stores and turn a profit.

That actually sounds promising. Regardless of how Bethesda implements that, it's a step into the right direction.

Now shutup with your 'teh codex automatically hatez Obligon' bullshit already okay?

Link

 

[Twinfalls]

I'm sure most people would look at the forests for 10 minutes the first time they see them. Then what? Fast-travel and sweet memories?

For the sig-less...

 

[Bosco]

Don't get me wrong, I like good graphics, but graphics neither make nor break an RPG. I'm sure that Bethesda would disagree with me, because looks like purty graphics is all they've got, but that's my opinion. As for the forests, I can't say I care. It would have been a great feature in a Myst game, but in an RPG it's merely a minor bonus. At least for me. I'm sure most people would look at the forests for 10 minutes the first time they see them. Then what? Fast-travel and sweet memories?

Kind of a bad sign if the only reason I want Oblivion is to play Deer Hunt in that forest.

 

[ExMonk]

Hey ExMonkey - want to read VD praising Oblivion?

Here:

There are five skill thresholds you'll need to reach in order to access the higher level benefits skill specialization yields. While your skill may start at five or 15 depending on what you've assigned yourself, it needs to reach 20 to access the next tier of skill benefits. The tier names are novice, apprentice, journeyman, expert, and master. As an example, if you're able to increase your armorer skill the master level, you can repair items beyond 100 percent, whereas at lower levels you may only be able to restore it to 50 percent and be restricted from repairing magical items. At the highest levels of the mercantile skill you're even able to invest in stores and turn a profit.

That actually sounds promising. Regardless of how Bethesda implements that, it's a step into the right direction.

Now shutup with your 'teh codex automatically hatez Obligon' bullshit already okay?

Link

Aren't you sweet...sifting through VD's many posts until you found this diamond in the rough. Just curious: How long did it take until you found this one positive comment? Your eyes must be strained, burning, red.

You must really dislike my criticism...

I wonder if that's how MSFD feels with the constant barage of "Bethesda sucks! Oblivion sucks. Morrowind sucks. Dumbing down gameplay. Nothing but graphics. Piece of crap. Ugly Npc's. Moronic quests. Actions have no effect on the gameworld. Sell outs" over and over and over and over and over ad NAUSEUM. Relentless and redundant criticism does get to be a bit much, doesn't it, sweety?

But actually you wasted your time. I was asking VD to praise one feature of Oblivion now. Now if he tells me that he still stands by the comment you quoted, so be it. Otherwise, the bitching must continue.

If you dish out the bitching endlessly, be ready to take it endlessly.

 

[Twinfalls]

I didn't sift through anything. I remembered that newsbit immediately as I had also thought this was a promising development, and I also commented positively.

It's one of the very few, if not only, features of Oblivion announced which actually sounded like it was a step forward for role-playing, in that it added some complexity and consequences of choices. So it's stands out like a sore thumb amongst the PR.

Unfortunately, what we have since learned about 'investing in stores' is that it's very simplistic - it amounts to 'you can sell more lewt to them'...

 

[AnalogKid]

Relentless and redundant criticism does get to be a bit much, doesn't it, sweety?

No. Relentless "Patrick Stewart will make our game RoX0r! Oh, don't worry about the game, we told you it will RoX0R!!1!" PR gets to be a bit much, leaving no option but relentless and redundant criticism.

As for this latest bit of amazing game design, who else is planning to build an anti-class? Make a fighter with all his combat skills as misc. After an hour to "catch up" with your "boosted" primary skills you get to improve as much as you want while holding down the challenge of the levelled opponents. If there weren't levelled encounters, there'd be no reason to do this kind of thing, but since there are, the system encourages a player to purposely lie about the skills he actually intends to use!

I know that's quite the munchkin tact, but that's what the sum total of game systems leads to. It's even so intricate, I'd say that it couldn't have happened by random chance... it must have been the result of "Intelligent Design"! :twisted:

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

This is what I get for making a quick post when I'm tired. Actually, the amount of skill usage you get for using a skill is the same, but major vs minor does indeed make a difference in the rate of skill advancement. Your class specialization (combat, stealth, magic) has an effect as well. Here's a concrete example.

Suppose you wanted to advance a skill from 15 to 16.

Major, within class specialization: 6.76 uses
Major, non-specialization: 9.02 uses
Minor, within class specialization: 11.27 uses
Minor, non-specialization: 15.03 uses

And those numbers get higher and higher in an exponential curve with higher skill levels.

The amount you get for using a skill depends on the skill. For athletics, for example, you get a VERY small skill usage for every second you run. Magic skills give you a usage either when you cast or when you find a target, depending on the school.

I need more sleep. Note -- the exact numbers are subject to change as we continue balancing the game.

 

[Claw]

You talk about useage. But does that mean successful useage or any?


Oh and VD, I wasn't talking about graphics so much as the concept of generating wilderness when needed, which could be expanded upon in the future.
It does matter for practical and roleplaying purposes. You might want to do stuff besides fast-travelling from quest location to quest location, hunt, collect ingredients for potions, and stuff.
Of course I may be overestimating this feature like many players overestimate Radiant AI.

Besides, it was just about praising one feature, not pinning your verdict of the game on it. "Procedurally generated forest are great but don't make it a good game." ought to be fine. :wink:

 

[AnalogKid]

This is what I get for making a quick post when I'm tired.
...
I need more sleep.

Well, that's a pretty damn big difference, but hey no worries! I'd MUCH rather you be wrong and the game be playable, instead of you being right (first time) and the game being a worthless coaster.

Now, could you please wake up and releive us all from this nightmare of the quantized multiplier on stat increases! I feel like Freddy's stalking us and all we need is for MSFD to get more sleep and then come out of it!!!

 

[Twinfalls]

Hey, this sounds a lot better.

Perhaps VD ought to update the news page.

I feel like Freddy's stalking us and all we need is for MSFD to get more sleep and then come out of it!!!

Nightmare on Elf Street?

I should be rubbed out for that.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

nevermind

 

[Country_Gravy]

The curve starts out pretty flat. It's fairly similar to this image.

This game sounds like it is going to be similar to this image

 

[Tintin]

The curve starts out pretty flat. It's fairly similar to this image.

This game sounds like it is going to be similar to this image

Bravo. That was so original, clever, witty and at the same time a real display of superior intellect. How did you manage it?