Interview New Gothic 3 interview with Kai Rosencrantz

[HardCode]

No. I never had humour. What a maroon. That interview isn't honest. Hell, I doubt the Gothic3 devs are even being honest with soemthings. Probably more delusional than anything.

R00fles!


P.S. Until you stop acting like one, I'll continue to point to you as you are - a stupid, brainwashed fanboy.

G3 > NWN2. NWN2 is t3h sUx. kthx. bye.

 

[elander_]

Everyone knows that G3 has huge problems so the smart thing to do was to say they are doing efforts to correct things. If they make a nice expansion that fixes the many problems in the game they may still get their credibility back.

 

[Hazelnut]

No. I never had humour. What a maroon. That interview isn't honest. Hell, I doubt the Gothic3 devs are even being honest with soemthings. Probably more delusional than anything.

R00fles!


P.S. Until you stop acting like one, I'll continue to point to you as you are - a stupid, brainwashed fanboy.

Well you used to make me laugh... maybe I've changed huh?

I'm interested as to your reasoning that they're delusional and dishonest.. nothing in the interview seemed out of place or not to match to the game I'm playing. So, it looks like you're just being negative for the sake of it. Feel free to explain your reasoning... not that I expect you to bother.

I really don't understand what makes me look like a fanboy to you.. because I like what Kai said in the interview? Please, come on, that's ridiculous. I said nice things about other games too, and developers - does that make me a fanboy of their games too? Or is this still about you being pissed off that you're enjoying G3 more than NWN2?

One thing I didn't quite get in the interview was this bit: "The world has one serious disadvantage compared to the prequels: It can't lie, it has to stick to its own rules. In G1/G2 you could cheat a character straightway to another place, make him invulnerable, double him temorarily (to let him wait in two places simultaneously), make him go through walls or fill his pockets using a storyscript. Gothic 3 controls itself, there are nearly no possibilities to take influence. Result: The game is extremely vulnerable to events which don't work as they should. In the end this is also a feature of freedom, but an unmeant one which we have to find a solution for."

It explains why sheparding a companion is frustrating and slow work in case they get stuck due to the pathfinding breaking down - finding them again can be a lottery. (with a low draw distance at least) Also when sent back they never seem to make it back if you've taken them a long way. I don't quite get what stops them from having some special cases to deal with events not working as they should. Anyone any thoughts?

 

[Crichton]

I don't quite get what stops them from having some special cases to deal with events not working as they should. Anyone any thoughts?

I have no idea what the dev is talking about, fleeing/following/dead NPCs run/walk/fall straight through walls like the ghosts of an x-man all the time; I always assumed that they were under a special set of rules under those conditions.

 

[Claw]

Nah, I think that's just bugginess. I've heard players say that quest-relevant NPCs have fallen out of the world and could only be found using cheats.

What stops them from having special solutions to resolve special situations? Sorry Hazel, that's a dumb question. What stops them from having more female models with different voices? What stops them from balancing combat better? What stops them from implementing all skills correctly? One answer to explain it all. Mike Hoge said they overreached themselves. Maybe they would've put in some exceptions to the normal rules to avoid issues with more time. Maybe there would've been more female models, better balancing, less bugs, etc. with more time.
But within the time they had, they just couldn't pull it off properly, so we got an ufinished mess.

 

[aries202]

HI

First, let me say that I kind of like Gothic 3 and I do also like Oblivion. However, if I were to choose, then
I had to go with Gothic 3 for reaons mentioned in my first post in this thread.

Let me then clarify a few things:

@ sabishii

When I compared G3 to Oblivion (and the engine?) used to create the games, my focus was on that Kai (in the interview) mentioned that the game engine itself did the algorithms (I'm not that much a math genius to quite understand what this means exactly)
when deciding what consequences there should be to the player's choices and actions in the game. I

I assumed that Bethsoft did the same with their coding for Oblivion i.e. letting the game decide which consequences there should be for the players actions in the game. I could, of course, be wrong, and the engines for the two games could be coded in a totally different manner. I agree with you that G3 is the better game, since your actions do have consequences; however the story, in G3, seems buried within that code, while in Oblivion the main quest doesn't feel like a story at all: It just feels like
it was glued on at a last minute resort after someone at Bethsoft discovered that they needed to make main quest for Oblivion.

I still stand by my original thoughts: To me, at least, G3 main quest, storyline, makes more sense as it is necesary for you and your avatar in G3 to actually find the clues to story yourself.

I find Oblivion nonlinear as well as I find Gothic 3 to be nonlinear. I also find that G3 implements this feauture much better than Oblivion does. How do you find that 'oblivion has the opposite of the nonlinear system PB tried to implement' ??

 

[aries202]

Let me continue my post here, then.

@ suibhne

Maybe I expressed myself wrong, but from what I've understand, both PB as well as Bethosft has tried to make or made game in which your avatar (and you) pretty much are allowed to do anything, and go everywhere from the start.

Maybe I used the term 'engine' wrong or some such things. All I know about developing games is pretty much that you'll need a game engine, some developers, and some code. Then the developers writes the code which is put into the game engine, and presto you have a game. (of course you also need to have designers, story writers and such, but all this has to be transformed to code ?? to be put into the game's engine so that the game at a time may be publushed ??).

I happen to agree with that Oblivion doesn't seem to react you at all, unless you're counting the thousands of ways people say good morning to you when wandering the streets of Cyrodiil. (Mainly there just having conversations about how many mudcrabs they all saw yesterday....very boring.... ).

As for the golden mean, or the middle way,
which Kai speaks so vividly for, I'm hoping that indeed
this will be possible to achieve one day.
This would mean that the story etc. and the narrative will get as much attention as the visuals & graphics.

And then finally, the delicate belance between form & content or content & form has been achieved (or reached).

 

[HardCode]

... and I do also like Oblivion.

-1

I assumed that Bethsoft did the same with their coding for Oblivion i.e. letting the game decide which consequences there should be for the players actions in the game. I could, of course, be wrong, ...

You are wrong, because Oblivion has no consequences for the PCs choices. Hence, the essential reason why Oblivion isn't an RPG, incidentally.

How do you find that 'oblivion has the opposite of the nonlinear system PB tried to implement' ??

Because in Oblivion, each event has exactly one and one way to do something, completely unrelated to how the rest of the game world acts. In Oblivion, it's "Go kill <NPC>." That's it. Kill or not, and the story stops there for that NPC.

In G3, you can kill, you can not kill, you can join the target NPC instead, you can kill the quest giver. And every one of these actions or non-actions have consequences:

Kill - Gain reputation with the questgiver's faction.
Not kill - No gain of reputation, leaving you from moving further up with the faction. However, you still have OTHER quests you can do to get favor.
Join Target NPC - You can do missions for the target NPC instead, betraying the original quest giver. Gain of reputation in the target's faction.
Kill the quest giver - A combination results from above, also leading to a heap of shit from that questgiver's town. You're now an outlaw.

Oblivion = 0 or 1. One "choice". Linear.
G3 = 0 or 1 or 2 or 3. Four choices. Non-linear.

The problem most people have is that they define non-linearity in an RPG as being able to do quests in any order. That's NOT non-linearity. Non-linearity means that the game can take different paths depending on what you do in the game.

 

[Kraszu]

I assumed that Bethsoft did the same with their coding for Oblivion i.e. letting the game decide which consequences there should be for the players actions in the game.

No, you are talking about rai in Oblivion that have nothing to do whit game deciding about consequence of your actions. If you take somebody folk he can die from hunger but just because he can eat only whit fork.

I find Oblivion nonlinear as well as I find Gothic 3 to be nonlinear. I also find that G3 implements this feauture much better than Oblivion does. How do you find that 'oblivion has the opposite of the nonlinear system PB tried to implement' ??

No Oblivion is open ended and linear what I mean by that it has linear small part that are not connected whit each other (quest don't collide, your actions have no affect on world). Oblivion is non linear as quake if it would have one big campaign and some levels not connected to it that you can freely choose (hit few side quest exeption for Oblivion).

Maybe I expressed myself wrong, but from what I've understand, both PB as well as Bethosft has tried to make or made game in which your avatar (and you) pretty much are allowed to do anything, and go everywhere from the start.

No, Bethseda makes game where you can do anything. Not connected quest whit each other, and world glued to it.

PB wanted to make game where you can't do anything because your actions affect the world and change your standing whit guilds[...]. Making it one consistent game.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

HI

I do also like Oblivion.

HI

For fuck's sake, ban this prick already.

 

[Hazelnut]

What stops them from having special solutions to resolve special situations? Sorry Hazel, that's a dumb question.

Not in light of what Kai said in the interview which, to me at least, implies that there's a design reason other than just not getting around to it. It's possible that this is implied incorrectly due to translation, or maybe this is the BS Volourn is referring to?

 

[aries202]

HI

I like a lot games, including Gothic 3, Baldur's Gate Saga, Icewind Dale Saga, Gothic 1+2, Dreamfall: The Longest Journey, Keepsake, Neverwinter Noghts 1+2, Amerzone,
Secret Files: Tunguska, Evil Islands, and many more games.

I do also like Morrowind and, yes, I like playing Oblivion. I agree that it could probably be debated until eternity if Oblvion is an rpg, but to me it -ehm - kind of doesn't matter. I like playing the game ---

However, I can also see where there's room for improvement....and on the ESF boards I have commented on this and made many constructive suggestions as to how and why Oblivion could be better.

Taste is individual, and with that note, I'd also that I do not find that Oblivion is the greatest RPG evar. This prize goes in my mind to the original Baldur's Gate or possibly Planescape: Torment.

 

[cutterjohn]

"Wow, what an honest and interesting interview. It's not often that you get the real reasons for a game's failings."

Honest? All I read was excuses, and bullcrap for how the game is. Interesting, yes, in his self and fan ass kisisng though. I'll give him that.

Thankfully, he helped make an ok game so I'll forgive him. Not taht he cares either way. L0LLERZ

Another Armchair Quarterback voicing his "opinion"!!! Moron.

I think the interview was very good in that the developer didn't state that the game is "epic, revolutionary, 'Trust Us!!!111one!1'". Rather, he explained in plain terms what it is they tried to achieve, what they accomplished, and what they currently failed at. It's nice to hear the truth sometimes, even if we wished it wasn't always so. I think PB is on the right track.

He also admitted without really coming out and saying it directly that G3 was:
rushed out/forced out by JoWood unfinished for the christmas season

He also mentioned, as I suspected, that Piranha Bytes will complete the game through patches, possibly adding more content.

I didn't get the parts about why they couldn't do certain things with the Genome engine, like make NPCs immortal... They should've been able to come up with a good enough workaround(e.g. extreme/MAX hp, script flags, etc.) to make them immortal to all but th emost determined opponent, etc. Along with the other foibles of the Genoe engine mentioned.

Lastly, he sort of hedged around whether or not one of the projects being worked on was an expansion for G3, but let it sound like it definitely was without coming right out an dsaying so... Pretty fucking convoluted. I suspect that they may be worried about funding, publisher, or something in case it doesn;t end up happening, I guess.

It also sounded like Piranha Bytes wants to market the Genome engine, from the comment about G3 was it's first application, experiment, etc.

Also, the prospects for a G3 editor definitely sounded like they were backburner as it appears they relied heavily on alot of perforce libraries which they will have to re-engineer to make a cost effective public editor. This is too bad, as an editor for G3 would be AWESOME.

 

[sabishii]

I didn't get the parts about why they couldn't do certain things with the Genome engine, like make NPCs immortal... They should've been able to come up with a good enough workaround(e.g. extreme/MAX hp, script flags, etc.) to make them immortal to all but th emost determined opponent, etc. Along with the other foibles of the Genoe engine mentioned.

I don't think it was an engine issue but rather that they wanted the player to have absolute (and rational) freedom.

 

[cutterjohn]

I don't think it was an engine issue but rather that they wanted the player to have absolute (and rational) freedom.

Well, the way I read it, was that the NPCs have a possibility to be killed by things other than the player as well, which, apparently, totally breaks AI & plot flow in the game....

P.S. I like G3 myself...

Why do you lie?

 

[Vault Dweller]

HI

I do also like Oblivion.

HI

For fuck's sake, ban this prick already.

I can't, I'm afraid he will tell me to [censored].

http://forums.bioware.com/viewtopic.htm ... 3&forum=22 (the last post)

 

[cutterjohn]

HI

I do also like Oblivion.

HI

For fuck's sake, ban this prick already.

I can't, I'm afraid he will tell me to [censored].

http://forums.bioware.com/viewtopic.htm ... 3&forum=22 (the last post)

How about a new title then? Maybe something like:
Oblibianman rides again!

 

[Elwro]

I prefer the
realtime turnbased (combat) options that bioware developed.

http://forums.bioware.com/forums/viewto ... m=22&sp=15

(his next post)

 

[Jasede]

I tell them to [censored].

...I don't care about your opinions. I don't care about how much you agree or disagree with something on the Codex, or with me, or anyone else, and neither should you do the same about me. But when I have to see your utterly retarded "Hi (smiley)" again I will track you down, break into your house and [censored] you into the oblivion you love so much and then send you to MajorBlackhart. In a suitcase.

 

[Human Shield]

To me, at least, you can't have full freedom for the player without this taking its toll at the narrative depth of the story. As well as you can't have a game in which there is narrative depth and not have this choice affect the freeform play of the character. (avatar etc. ) in the game.

Actually, I strongly disagree with Kai about the freeform gameplay being the future of (singleplayer) rpgs. If rpg players want freeform gameplay, the will play an MMOrpg instead, imo. Bioware has had succes in the past, the present and will also have in the future, imo, by letting story-telling be the focus in their games.

Amen, Brother Amen! Haven't read such an intelligent post in a very loooong time. You should express you point to HumanShied though, cause he can't grasp the concept.

Don't confuse what I'm talking about with full freedom. I was talking about linear with branching through modular design, that changes based on a set of player choices.

Bioware focusing on "story-telling" to the devs just means more and more cutscenes, there is nothing RPG about cutscenes. They don't know what to do with game design so as long as their action games have lots of cutscenes/forced dialog they call them RPGs.

Obviously PnP games can create unscripted stories (not just a series of events) through system, but they keep things more linear in a way then other styles mite. Random serial killings and stealing for no reason doesn't aid story, if characters were just random a theme wouldn't develop and you would just have a transcript instead of story.

To make actions meaningful you need to design moral choices which is a limit on killing whoever you want and is more then following a railroad or clearing dungeons. Even killing backed by a reputation system is just playing with numbers if moral problems aren't faced (how much is your loyalty if they ask you do X, Y, Z?).

And to make these moral questions more then just asking for preference (which is what good vs. evil is normally designed like) it has to be backed by system design. This could be done in a game like BG2 if the designers started thinking beyond D&D rules.

I'm asking for a system where the player can choose from among different premise focuses and by the end have created a unique theme to the story.

 

[Kraszu]

I prefer the
realtime turnbased (combat) options that bioware developed.

http://forums.bioware.com/forums/viewto ... m=22&sp=15

(his next post)

What to disagree there, there are turn based it is just that it is everybody's turn all the time. So simply put real time is turn based of next gen, old computers could not handle turn for everybody so they were cut in parts, new games are really turn based, not turn wait based lol.

 

[Human Shield]

What to disagree there, there are turn based it is just that it is everybody's turn all the time. So simply put real time is turn based of next gen, old computers could not handle turn for everybody so they were cut in parts, new games are really turn based, not turn wait based lol.

Real time with added rules (limited actions) is still real time and will always be real time. If the player makes choices in real time it is real time, the player makes choices in turns it is turn-based, if the players make choices then it plays out it is phase based.

Real-time promotes reaction-based play, TB and phase-based promote resource strategy play (deciding on how to use time units and actions), and they can be speeded up to play faster then RT because supervising and babysitting waiting it out isn't needed. RT could play with resource strategy play but it has never been done before.

 

[Volourn]

"Why do you lie?"

Why do you lie?

 

[aries202]

I'm a bit worried about this. I have stated on more than one occasion that I happen to enjoy and like Oblivion, also here I think.

However, as I've also stated over and over again, I don't find that Oblivion is the 'bestest rpg evar'.
If you would bother to look through my posts, then
you would see me complain about the pop-ups, the annoying quest arrows, and other stuff like that as well as the big fonts and such. I'd also raised my voice both here on the codex as well as on the
ESF boards to about what I thought was wrong with Oblivion as well as I have posted constructive ways of how to make Oblivion better. I'm sorry that I don't seem to *[censor]* Oblivion as much as you guys do.

Nevertheless, I still stand by my comment on made about this site in the quoted bioware post(s). And while we're on that subject, I find it a bit unlogical (and possibly unethichal) to bring up a post I've made on the bioware forums. I'm not sure about this, but doesn't any material on the bioware boards belong to them i.e. have copyright associated somehow with them. [I can't think of any other reason to that than to show other people how
(cenored) I am].

Also, in the manual for Baldur's Gate 2 on page 39, it clearly states that "we follow a modiefied round bases system." This means that yes, combat is in real-time, but every character has to wait until it is his or her turn to do something. This is done ten times faster than in Pnp games, since each round is six seconds long.

It was this 'real-time turnbased combat' of which I spoke. Maybe I worded it wrong or didn't express myself clearly enough. If that's the case, then I truly am sorry.

Also, it it not clear to me exactly what it is I should to to Vault Dweller ?? Also, please note that the last isn't mine, it reivax's post. (or maybe it is in my second last post).

I hightly doubted there would be this much trouble ahead when I just made one little comment about
how I kind of liked Oblivion. (and that being said, I still don't get the *....* from the codex nor do think that Oblivion the 'bestest RPG evaaar*.)

I enjoy a heated argument/discussion as much as the next guy, but I prefer one based in opinions and arguments, not one based in personal [censored] and [censored] feelings.

 

[aries202]

Obviously, you have missed this post:

"Having said what I just said in the post before this, there is a few things, I actually find myself agreeing with the codexers about.

While graphics are nice & all, what's makes an rpg an rpg is the storyline and my avatars or characters interaction with the world.

There should be other options to solve quests than just
through combat. Turnbased combat is OK, but I prefer the
realtime turnbased (combat) options that bioware developed.

It really should be your characters stats and skills that determines whether or not you hit the enemy/monster/demon, not the player's (i.e. my) hand-eye co-ordination. (in oblivions it was at least partly so).

Action should have consequenses, If you kill an important NPC, the questline associated with this NPC shouldn't even up to you. You need to face the consequences as a man or woman of the actions you've made. Or if you're told to clean out this nabidt lair in three days, and you don't do it untill 4 days have gone by, there should be consequences. Or if you're in a romance with someone and you're told that you need to hurry to a certain place, and you don't get there fast enough, the love of your life should be [censored] or [censored] or leave you alltogether.

This is making it so that actions performed in the gameworld do have consequences for you, for the characters in your party and for the world. (in say oblivion, imo, actions don't have any consequences...there is no need to hurry to combat one of the greatest threat to the whole exitence of Tamriel/Cyrodill). In BG1 and BG2 I, as the player behind my avatar, actually felt like it was ncessery to do something about the threat to the sword coast or Amn."

from this place (1st post on the page)

http://forums.bioware.com/forums/viewto ... m=22&sp=15