New Nine Divines Poll at the official forums

[yipsl]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... try3766543

The old one got over 200 posts and was closed. For all those CRPG gamers who see rolegaming depth and choice as the essence of TES and for a discussion of how religion fits into a role playing game.

IMHO, games without religion, or that just use religion as a place to get healed or resurrected miss the mark. Whatever one's real life religious point of view (and I'm fairly religious in a liberal Jewish sort of way), in game religious choices offer roleplaying depth to our characters that simple monster bashing, monty hauling and thief sneaking does not.

 

[Twinfalls]

At which 'official forum'? The TES forum by any chance?

Is it too much trouble for people to at least say their thread is TES-related in the title? I'm a TES fan and even I'm getting annoyed by how much this place is treated as some kind of a sub-forum for offcial TES regulars and sundry Oblivion bullshit posters (WHERE PICS KHAJJIT PORN PLZ??) where it is assumed TES is the subject.

 

[Lumpy]

Oh, come on, make a Yes/No poll. I agree that "A joinable religous faction adds depth and choice.", but I also think that "The remaining factions define TES today.", since, well, they do...
And, do you notice the difference? Last time, it said "TES will never be the same...". I didn't vote that, because I didn't agree. A religious faction is very important, but it's not like TES is ruined without it. That's why people didn't vote that too much, probably.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=204201

 

[Zomg]

Label shit as Oblivion-related, please.

 

[Here2Argue]

I must find this Khajitt Porn...

 

[Micmu]

I have Orc porn.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Who doesn't?

 

[Section8]

Well to get slightly back on topic, it's good to see there seems to be a good showing of support, and actual intelligent discussion going on over there.

I'm personally disappointed, because I enjoy using religion as a pivotal aspect of my characters. Aside from playing Paladin and Cleric type classes, it's a constant moral reference to both follow and question. It gives me cause to consider my actions carefully.

But also, I think Bethesda are missing an opportunity, since religious questing generally provides a richer experience than thieves, mercenaries and assassins, and it seems like less effort to come up with diverse quests of a religious nature.

That said, one of the aspects that does interest me about Oblivion is the role that religion and daedra play in the "dramatic" and "epic" storyline. It might even give my characters motivation within the main quest, something that Morrowind completely failed to do.

 

[Twinfalls]

What's your big problem, sectionWuss? There are five great guilds. Fighters, Thieves, Assassins, Mages, Arena. Plus the supa-sekret Blades.

So you get Fightin', Stealin', Killin', Fightin' (with magic), and Fightin'. Plus supa-sekret Fightin'.

What more could you possibly want? Monks are gay and use staffs, and staffs are now rocket launchers anyway, so it's all good.

 

[Tintin]

Isn't it funny how the idea of stealth can be used to both praise and bash a game at the writer's personal whim?

 

[Balor]

*scratches head*
[TR00 EVIL SOTONIST MODE]
I agree, not having religious faction in Oblivion sucks. A missed opportunity for great roleplaing - I mean, burning their churches to the ground and killing the priest using slow, painful spells, mwhahahaha! :twisted:
[/TR00 EVIL SOTONIST MODE]

Well, I have same attitude to religions as to gays - I leave them alone as long as they do the same, and consider both gays and relgious persons a bit off in their heads, but not inherently 'bad' people... but having in mind that their views, if taken to extremes by everyone - will exterminate the humanity.

That extends to roleplaying, so if they woun't make a 'religion' guild - I don't mind, really.
I wish they'd better make existing quests more interesting and bugless.
Of course, it's utterly egoistical point of view, but same goes for yipsl .

 

[ExMonk]

Well, I have same attitude to religions as to gays - I leave them alone as long as they do the same, and consider both gays and relgious persons a bit off in their heads, but not inherently 'bad' people... but having in mind that their views, if taken to extremes by everyone - will exterminate the humanity.

Balor, I'd love to leave you alone, but your mind-numbing comments draw me to you. You need help. Dolt.

 

[ExMonk]

Monks are gay

Hey! Is that directed toward me? If monks are gay what are EXmonks?

 

[Twinfalls]

prior ass-priers from the Priory?

It wasn't directed at you, Monk - 'twas a jibe at the attitude of marketeers towards the console demographic.

 

[Lumpy]

Balor, you had to say something about real religion, didn't you?...
And does nobody else here think that the devs might have been telling the truth when they said that factions had deeper storylines on their own? It's no excuse for removing the Nine Divines, but it means that guilds aren't exactly they way TF described them.

 

[OverrideB1]

Balor, you had to say something about real religion, didn't you?...
And does nobody else here think that the devs might have been telling the truth when they said that factions had deeper storylines on their own? It's no excuse for removing the Nine Divines, but it means that guilds aren't exactly they way TF described them.

Unfortunately, as time has proven, Bethesda devs say a lot of things about Oblivion that later turn out to be complete and utter bullshit. Remember that - originally - the Nine Divines was in as a faction (according to one dev). Now... pfttt - gone like a fart in a high wind.

As the list of available skills, features, and factions dwindles with each passing month there is an air of desperation about dev pronouncements as they repeat Todd's mantra by rote. All together now...

 

[Lumpy]

Balor, you had to say something about real religion, didn't you?...
And does nobody else here think that the devs might have been telling the truth when they said that factions had deeper storylines on their own? It's no excuse for removing the Nine Divines, but it means that guilds aren't exactly they way TF described them.

Unfortunately, as time has proven, Bethesda devs say a lot of things about Oblivion that later turn out to be complete and utter bullshit. Remember that - originally - the Nine Divines was in as a faction (according to one dev). Now... pfttt - gone like a fart in a high wind.

As the list of available skills, features, and factions dwindles with each passing month there is an air of desperation about dev pronouncements as they repeat Todd's mantra by rote. All together now...

Features, yes, they are getting less. But, obliviously, they didn't really remove them for no reason - they probably did make the remaining features better. While I don't agree with this for weapons, I do agree that Morrowind's factions were boring, and that they really needed some improvement.
That being said, I think that 5 factions are enough - they just didn't make the right 5.

 

[OverrideB1]

See, this is where I usually have the big disagreement with many of the useless twonks on the official forums and the main source of my recent distain for Bethesda.

Yes - many of the features in MW needed improving, I will not argue with you on that point. What I do not agree with is Bethesda's method of "improving" a feature by removing it entirely. That's not improvement - that's fucking butchery. And the "features" they have added - with the sole exception of the untried and unknown quantity that is RAI - are pure smoke and mirrors.

Yes, they say they have improved the combat. Yes they say they have improved all five factions and the quests therefore. But they said the same about MW...

 

[Lumpy]

See, this is where I usually have the big disagreement with many of the useless twonks on the official forums and the main source of my recent distain for Bethesda.

Yes - many of the features in MW needed improving, I will not argue with you on that point. What I do not agree with is Bethesda's method of "improving" a feature by removing it entirely. That's not improvement - that's fucking butchery. And the "features" they have added - with the sole exception of the untried and unknown quantity that is RAI - are pure smoke and mirrors.

Yes, they say they have improved the combat. Yes they say they have improved all five factions and the quests therefore. But they said the same about MW...

Unknown. That's the point.
You are judging Bethesda only by what is known. The problem is, the only thing that CAN be known before release is quantity, while quality can't.
Bethesda say that they chose quality over quantity. Which I think is a good thing, because of Morrowind's low quality. However, you are acting like the are removing quantity without adding quality, because you CAN'T know yet if they are.
So, just because you can't know yet that something is true, you assume that it's false.
Myself, I'll wait and see. Though I still believe that they are telling the truth.

 

[OverrideB1]

I've got to say that I lack your faith in the developers of games - having been burned by the trust us, it'll be cool mantra one too many times.

Tell me, if you will, what exactly have Bethesda added to the game that is so great in comparison to what they've excised instead of improving?

Ownable Housing? Horses? Newspapers? Unkillable NPCs? Quest Compass? Pretty graphics? Celebrity voices? Soil Erosion? Speedtree? Physics? Each and every one of those things is nothing new (with the possible exception of realistic soil erosion). New to a TES game, maybe (except for the houses, and the horses, and the unkillable NPCs. Oh, and the pretty graphics) - but they are staples of pretty much every other game genre out there in one form or another.

So, we are left with the one really new thing in the game, the untried and untested RAI. And even that is only an updated version of Daggerfall's NPC scheduling. Now the devs can trumpet about how good RAI is, and all the omi polari on the official forums can pin there hopes on it being the best thing since sliced bread. But the bottom line is this: nobody other than the devs have seen it in action - it is an unknown quantity. So, it comes down to whether or not you believe what the devs tell you vis-a-vis RAI. And there have been far too many... untruths and omissions from that source for me to trust more than 50% of what they say.

So we have a game that is ten years on from Daggerfall that is less feature-packed, smaller, has a pitiful number of NPCs for the area it's supposed to cover (what, 1200 or 1500 in 16 square miles? compared to MW's 3000+?)*, has far fewer factions than even its immediate predecessor, is almost completely orientated towards combat, is designed for people who couldn't find their way out of a paper bag, fewer skills, less choice... and so on.

No - as far as I'm concerned, this is a game designed by committee for the lowest common denominator.

* And there, I fear, is the big failing of RAI that nobody wants us to know - it seems that the number of NPCs it can control is very limited. Othwise, why such a miniscule number of NPCs in such a large area?

 

[Lumpy]

I never said they added anything, but the improved the old features.
Guilds - each will be as deep as the main quest.
Quests - you know the two examples: The one where you are supposed to kill some people at a party. The NPCs react realistically, blaming each other and preparing for battle.
NPCs - yeah, MW had 3000. And I could add 10000 more NPCs in one week, with only a random name generator. Really, the name was the only difference between them, all the other topics were common. As for Daggerfall, well, that one was even worse. At least in MW NPCs had different answers based on class, race and location, even though those were shared with other NPCs. in DF, all NPCs were the same, and all their dialogues were extremly basic, containing little personal views, if any. In Oblivion, all of them are said to be unique.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I never said they added anything, but the improved the old features.
Guilds - each will be as deep as the main quest.

First, is that a fact or a promise? Second, what main quest? The one we've seen in MW was anything but deep and interesting.

Quests - you know the two examples: The one where you are supposed to kill some people at a party. The NPCs react realistically, blaming each other and preparing for battle.

While this quest is celebrated as the pinnacle of awesomeness, I have a problem with that. So, you are an assassin, you are killing guests at a party. At some point the guests realize that someone's killing them - they start blaming each other, preparing for battle, etc. What would be realistic for them is to arm, barricade the room, and wait it out making it impossible for you to kill them silently. Or to leave the party. Or call the guards. Instead they blame each other, get weapons and continue to wonder around the house giving you a chance to kill them all. Sounds like a lame quest for 12-year olds.

NPCs - yeah, MW had 3000. ... In Oblivion, all of them are said to be unique.

Isn't that what they *said* about MW NPCs too? That's the problem with Oblivion, anything potentially good you have to believe in, because Bethesda is refusing to give you any facts, which is rather alarming.

I know that many dumb motherfuckers would say "but it's hard to show such an awesome gameplay or even explain it in previews". Maybe. However, when that Russian site was going to post the second part of the preview, focused on quests and dialogues, Bethesda forced to postpone that preview until the game is released. Very fucking comforting.

 

[Lumpy]

I never said they added anything, but the improved the old features.
Guilds - each will be as deep as the main quest.

First, is that a fact or a promise? Second, what main quest? The one we've seen in MW was anything but deep and interesting.

I was thinking exactly about that while I was writing this - I agree, if OB's main quest is as dumb as Morrowind's, than that promise doesn't really mean much.

Quests - you know the two examples: The one where you are supposed to kill some people at a party. The NPCs react realistically, blaming each other and preparing for battle.

While this quest is celebrated as the pinnacle of awesomeness, I have a problem with that. So, you are an assassin, you are killing guests at a party. At some point the guests realize that someone's killing them - they start blaming each other, preparing for battle, etc. What would be realistic for them is to arm, barricade the room, and wait it out making it impossible for you to kill them silently. Or to leave the party. Or call the guards. Instead they blame each other, get weapons and continue to wonder around the house giving you a chance to kill them all. Sounds like a lame quest for 12-year olds.

What you described sounds an awful lot like preparing for battle. And blaming each other doesn't mean "You did it. No, you." They will probably suspect certain NPCs, maybe force them to get out.

NPCs - yeah, MW had 3000. ... In Oblivion, all of them are said to be unique.

Isn't that what they *said* about MW NPCs too? That's the problem with Oblivion, anything potentially good you have to believe in, because Bethesda is refusing to give you any facts, which is rather alarming.

I know that many dumb motherfuckers would say "but it's hard to show such an awesome gameplay or even explain it in previews". Maybe. However, when that Russian site was going to post the second part of the preview, focused on quests and dialogues, Bethesda forced to postpone that preview until the game is released. Very fucking comforting.

Maybe they said that for Morrowind because it was true? Morrowind's NPCs were much better than Daggerfall's.

 

[Tintin]

What would be realistic for them is to arm, barricade the room, and wait it out making it impossible for you to kill them silently

Not really. Isn't is supposed to be just a regular dinner party? Would any regular people at a normal dinner party react this way? I don't think so. More likely it would just be a mess of confusion. They aren't trained professionals. Probably just regular idiots.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I was thinking exactly about that while I was writing this - I agree, if OB's main quest is as dumb as Morrowind's, than that promise doesn't really mean much.

Exactly.

What you described sounds an awful lot like preparing for battle. And blaming each other doesn't mean "You did it. No, you." They will probably suspect certain NPCs, maybe force them to get out.

Maybe. But the point is you have to kill all of them and silently (correct me if I'm wrong). In order to do that, all of them must act really stupid and do things that will make it convinient for you to kill them, making it not an interesting quest but a quest to wait for another fool to leave the group to be killed.

Maybe they said that for Morrowind because it was true? Morrowind's NPCs were much better than Daggerfall's.

In what ways?