New Oblivion Preview on Gamespy that you'll just LOVE

[damaged_drone]

this discussion cuts right to the heart of codex orthodoxy. hehe.

 

[LlamaGod]

besides the fact that options are the same for everyone and you have no personality in Morrowind (are there even fucking choices?), you never ever once have the world react to your character design

and morrowind's character system had 0 roleplaying in it. All the skills were self-help or combat skills (and like 2 trading skills) and all your stats just raised values, you never actually had a specific character.

you can get 100 in everything in morrowind and still be the same exact character you were when you started, you just do more damage

There were lots of fucking choices in Morrowind. 300+ optional quests are choices. Want to play an evil or selfish character? Join the Telvanni. An agent? Join the Hlaalu. A healer? The Temple. A diplomat? Imperial Cult. An assassin? Morag Tong. A researcher or an archeologist? The Mages Guild. A mercenary? Fighters Guild. A thief? Thieves guild. A honourable warrior? The Redoran.

did the game even fucking acknowledge any of that? or is it just more happy funtime pretending?

I liked how in the end of the singleplayer storyline, the bad guy offers you to join him and you CANT. Yeah, that's some great roleplaying options right there.


Roleplaying is something like this:

An example: a girl is being held by bad dudes and you've got to go and get her.

The encounter can be finished one of many ways, but not all are available to you depending on how your character is designed.

So a character who you've focused on Charisma and Speech skills, a negotiator kinda guy, could go in and talk the guy into letting Tandi go. Obiviously with an emphasis on dialog capabilities, you arn't that good of a fighter..

Playing a big beefy warrior guy, when you talk to him you're not exactly a good talker and those options arnt available to you. Instead you'll have to do the basic 'beat the shit out of everyone' approach.

Then the rest of the game is designed with multiple character designs in mind (certain dialog options only available for high charisma/speech guys, needing to be strong enough to defeat this same person, being able to sneak around him and get to what you need, etc.), so you design your character and play through the world as someone of his abilities would. You play his role that you've specified.

Never once do you need to have something to do something in Morrowind, everything is always the same to everyone. There isn't any Roleplaying. All people respond the same, all situations are the same, all problems are resolved the same.

There also isnt any real evil paths to follow in Morrowind. You always become the saviour and you always kill the big evil guy.


Another example: In Fallout I played a talkative character who was also decent in hand-to-hand fighting. So I could talk my way through things and also bust a few of the smaller heads, but I had some difficulty when it came down to things of knowledge and science. They were beyond my capabilities.

So I was playing the role of a persuasive fist fighter and went through the game's encounters as such, because they responded to my design.

 

[Lumpy]

besides the fact that options are the same for everyone and you have no personality in Morrowind (are there even fucking choices?), you never ever once have the world react to your character design

and morrowind's character system had 0 roleplaying in it. All the skills were self-help or combat skills (and like 2 trading skills) and all your stats just raised values, you never actually had a specific character.

you can get 100 in everything in morrowind and still be the same exact character you were when you started, you just do more damage

There were lots of fucking choices in Morrowind. 300+ optional quests are choices. Want to play an evil or selfish character? Join the Telvanni. An agent? Join the Hlaalu. A healer? The Temple. A diplomat? Imperial Cult. An assassin? Morag Tong. A researcher or an archeologist? The Mages Guild. A mercenary? Fighters Guild. A thief? Thieves guild. A honourable warrior? The Redoran.

did the game even fucking acknowledge any of that? or is it just more happy funtime pretending?

How did Fallout aknowledge the type of character you were playing?
And there is a major difference here. Fallout did have 2-3 ways to complete some of the quests, however, there were 40-50 quests. Morrowind wasn't about doing quests 50 in whatever way fits your character, it was about having 50 quests that fit your character. Both were equally good, in my opinion.

 

[LlamaGod]

How did Fallout aknowledge the type of character you were playing?

By giving me options to talk my way through things, since my character's role is that of a good talker (because he IS).

I also had difficulty with technology and sciences and solving mental problems, because my character was BAD AT THAT STUFF, so obviously... he's bad at it.

And to be more correct, Fallout had 50 quests that could be solved through different means, available to different levels of abilities, to cater to the designs of characters. So you could play the role you've specified for your character through your character's design.

Morrowind had 50 quests that were exactly the same for every single character.

 

[Lumpy]

How did Fallout aknowledge the type of character you were playing?

By giving me options to talk my way through things, since my character's role is that of a good talker (because he IS).

I also had difficulty with technology and sciences and solving mental problems, because my character was BAD AT THAT STUFF, so obviously... he's bad at it.

And to be more correct, Fallout had 50 quests that could be solved through different means, available to different levels of abilities, to cater to the designs of characters. So you could play the role you've specified for your character through your character's design.

Morrowind had 50 quests that were exactly the same for every single character.

Morrowind had 400 quests out of which every character could find at least 50 that fit him.

 

[LlamaGod]

you are failing to understand anything

 

[Lumpy]

you are failing to understand anything

What do I fail to understand? I understand that each quest in Daggerfall offered many options to finish it, one for each character. Morrowind's didn't. Instead, they offered different quests for each character.

 

[Micmu]

Instead, they offered all quests for any character.

Here, fixed.

 

[Lumpy]

Instead, they offered all quests for any character.

Here, fixed.

Oh, really? My Telvanni character never did any of the Thieves Guild quests.

 

[Imbecile]

Instead, they offered all quests for any character.

Here, fixed.

Well you could only do high level guild quests if you were good enough with the appropriate stat. I would imagine that had Llama levelled up his Science and Technology stats he could have done the quest in a number of different ways too, in Fallout.

Is all we are saying here is that it was too easy to level up in Morrowind

 

[Micmu]

That's what I meant. Any warrior or thief could easily do, for example, mage quests. And you were able to boost your skills in no time without any effort (cheap trainers) plus redicilously overpowering items (80% chameleon) and enchanting.

There were also no proper mechanics/story elements that would EXPLAIN (or better prevent!) redicilous phenomenoms like being the head of most guilds. Even as stupid combination as the Tribunal Temple and Nine divines (or what was it called?) and Imperial legion.

Oh, and they fixed that now in OB. Heh heh.

 

[Lumpy]

That's what I meant. Any warrior or thief could easily do, for example, mage quests. And you were able to boost your skills in no time without any effort (cheap trainers) plus redicilously overpowering items (80% chameleon) and enchanting.

There were also no proper mechanics/story elements that would EXPLAIN (or better prevent!) redicilous phenomenoms like being the head of most guilds. Even as stupid combination as the Tribunal Temple and Nine divines (or what was it called?) and Imperial legion.

Oh, and they fixed that now in OB. Heh heh.

Why should they stop a warrior from doing mage quests?

 

[Imbecile]

Why should they stop a warrior from doing mage quests?

Well they could make it a little harder. The problem in Morrowind was that it was so easy to be a kick arse jack of all trades, that you could effectively do the lot very easily - if you wanted.

Doesnt mean that its any less of an RPG though (as you can level up fully in most RPGs), just that they screwed up the levelling up curve. In theory this is fixed in Oblivion...

 

[Section8]

And there is a major difference here. Fallout did have 2-3 ways to complete some of the quests, however, there were 40-50 quests. Morrowind wasn't about doing quests 50 in whatever way fits your character, it was about having 50 quests that fit your character. Both were equally good, in my opinion.

But, there were also 350 other quests that didn't suit your character, but could pretty much be done anyway. After all, it doesn't take any magic whatsoever to pick flowers, steal shit from a desk, deliver notes, etc. Nor does it take any melee combat skills to kill rats, bandits, whoever. Hell, even being an assassin didn't require you to be sneaky, in fact, I remember most of the quests being impossible to approach in a stealthy fashion. You just walk up to someone in a public place, beat the fuck out them, and then show a letter to the guards.

So sure, I'd agree that the game does respond in some small manner, to character strengths, but it almost entirely fails to account for character weaknesses.

Those 50 quests that suit the character are decided entirely at the player's discretion, the game rarely imposed any kind of limit. It gives you choices appropriate to your character, but it doesn't react to them in any way. That's why we're constantly criticising the lack of consequence.

Now once again, that leads into the whole discussion of "how much of this should just be left to the player's imagination." And that's really a personal preference. I prefer consequences to choices and actions, but I realise others don't.

[edit]

Why should they stop a warrior from doing mage quests?

The Guild of Mages only accepts candidates of keen intelligence and dominant will. Candidates must exhibit mastery in the great schools of magic: Destruction, Alteration, Illusion, and Mysticism. Candidates must also display practical knowledge of enchantments and alchemical processes.

I don't really see what use a warrior is to an organisation who "provides benefits to scholars of magic and established laws regarding the proper use of magic. The Guild is dedicated to the collection, preservation, and distribution of magical knowledge with an emphasis on ensuring that all citizens of Tamriel benefit from this knowledge."

You could argue that a warrior can still serve the a small purpose, but it's very unlikely they'd provide anywhere near as much as somebody with a knowledge of the arcane.

 

[Lumpy]

They should have had at least a 40-20-20 requirement for joining, and as long as a warrior had that, he should be allowed in. Otherwise, not.